Violence

[sendô WHU]

There wasn't really any great trouble in the ground to speak of. A bit of scuffling in the corner where West Ham fans tried to get at the Millwall, and then a couple of idiotic pitch invasions, which weren't violent and seemed to be fat drunken idiots getting over-excited.

Most of the trouble was outside, which seemed to be caused largely a combination of factors - lots of Millwall turning up without tickets due to limited availability, far too few old bill, the fact that it was a night game and therefore lots of drunken idiots about, and the fact that the game went to general sale which mean't people that were banned managed to get tickets.

The fact is, West Ham aren't really any worse than a lot of other club these days for hooligans. We just seem to have attracted a lot of wannabee kids thanks to films like Green Street.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

There wasn't really any great trouble in the ground to speak of. A bit of scuffling in the corner where West Ham fans tried to get at the Millwall, and then a couple of idiotic pitch invasions, which weren't violent and seemed to be fat drunken idiots getting over-excited.

Most of the trouble was outside, which seemed to be caused largely a combination of factors - lots of Millwall turning up without tickets due to limited availability, far too few old bill, the fact that it was a night game and therefore lots of drunken idiots about, and the fact that the game went to general sale which mean't people that were banned managed to get tickets.

The fact is, West Ham aren't really any worse than a lot of other club these days for hooligans. We just seem to have attracted a lot of wannabee kids thanks to films like Green Street.

Not what I'm hearing Sendo. Hearing locally that this was an organised effort by your fans, that the trouble in the ground was a bit more than a scuffle (from a stewards mouth that one), also the football authorities really jump on fans on the pitch which is now a criminal offence, and that by and large Millwall were largely innocent on this one (can't believe I've written Millwall and innocent in the same sentence ). Also most of those without tickets outside the ground were 'West Ham fans' and not from Millwall. Also as I understand it, tickets went on sale to season ticket holders and general sale to those already on the ticket database only, so the previously banned causing trouble inside doesn't add up!

The chanting by Millwall was well out of order (The Davenport stuff was sick and the Collison stuff just unacceptable) but the blame for this is laying squarely on West Ham for this one!

Won it in 1966, lost it for 2018 :thumbdown:

 

[sendô WHU]

Not what I'm hearing Sendo. Hearing locally that this was an organised effort by your fans, that the trouble in the ground was a bit more than a scuffle (from a stewards mouth that one), also the football authorities really jump on fans on the pitch which is now a criminal offence, and that by and large Millwall were largely innocent on this one (can't believe I've written Millwall and innocent in the same sentence ). Also most of those without tickets outside the ground were 'West Ham fans' and not from Millwall. Also as I understand it, tickets went on sale to season ticket holders and general sale to those already on the ticket database only, so the previously banned causing trouble inside doesn't add up!

The chanting by Millwall was well out of order (The Davenport stuff was sick and the Collison stuff just unacceptable) but the blame for this is laying squarely on West Ham for this one!

Won it in 1966, lost it for 2018 :thumbdown:

You make it sound very one sided SEB. Do you honestly believe for a second that there was violence at a Millwall match and no Millwall were involved.

It's pretty much a given that there was organisation going on behind the scenes by the 'fans', it's naive to think that it doesn't happen at a lot of games these days, but this one was highlighted because it was outside the ground.

As for the scuffling, well I guess it depends on the stewards perception, I can only go by what I saw on the tele, but it didn't appear to be as bad as it being made out. Some West Ham tried to get at Millwall and were stopped by the stewards.

Running on the pitch probably is an offense, but it's hardly the end of the world. Millwall fans couldn't get on the pitch if they tried, they were hemmed in by the stewards/OB, but they still managed to smash parts of the stand. Don't believe they're innocent.

It's not hard for banned fans to get other people to buy tickets you know.

Lost it for 2018? Give over, this wasn't much of a riot. The G20 protest the other month were far worse. The press are hyping it up to be far more than it is.

 

[Darren]

Maybe it's not, I'm not really sure where I stand on the issue, but just to play devil's advocate - is it not part of the crowd's job to try and intimidate the players? If we can get under the skin of the opposition and unsettle them, shouldn't we do it? I'm pretty sure hearing that stuff aimed at me would really upset me and definitely put me off my game.

Is it any different to suggesting David Beckham's missus enjoys anal and questioning the whereabouts of Lee Chapman's missus or Shaun Wright-Phillips's real dad? Is it really?

That sounds a good argument for racist abuse of black players.

 

[SwissBlade]

I'd read so much yesterday about this, mainly reports and rumours, so I spent much of last night watching the news on BBC and looking at the large volumes of video footage on Youtube etc.

So heres my thoughts (for what their worth)

- Millwall chanting was a disgrace, but I never believe that opposition fans can be incited by songs. Nowadays Police can pick out individuals on camera so they will hopefully be dealt with.

- It was no surprise to ANYONE at WHU, Millwall, the Police, the transport or the fans that this had potential for trouble, both inside and outside the ground. Reading the very public forums it was clear that West Ham 'fans' were up for it and expected trouble. BBC reported that a Pub near the ground was boarded up hours before. Bobby Moore's statue was also boarded up.

- Seats were ripped out, apparently in home and away ends, missiles were thrown from both sets of fans.

-I've read that Millwall were able to leave the tube and transport without Police Escort.

- There was lost of bother outside the ground but there should have been more than enough Riot Police to contain this.

- During the Pitch invasions (the last was after the penalty) there were no Riot Police around the perimeter of the pitch. Only Stewards. Everyone of those that entered the pitch should be dealt with appropriately. There were 3 pitch invasions. So the security should have been stepped up.

- The fans on the pitch were not just jubilant fatties, many of them were hell bent on getting to the Millwall lot. Some were just jubilant, but even the jubilant were fighting with stewards.

After the game the situation is easy to deal with. Keep the Millwall in until the surrounding area has been cleared of West Ham. Then March them to the tube and get them out of there.

At the lane, whenever there is a large crowd or a game with potential for pitch invasion Stewards go to Code red (or whatever the announcement is) which means pay attention and stand up. They are then supported with a Riot copper every 2-3 stewards. A single pitch invasion or a last min penalty would lead to this.

Some serious questions need answering as to why so many trouble makers were allowed to be around the game and why was this not policed better? Is the lack of Policing anything to do with the Climate protests?

It has dented our 2018 chances, but nothing more. Its a wake up. Yes its a family game, but unfortunately its inevitable that many of todays dads are yesterdays hooligans!

West Ham, the FA, Millwall and the Police all need to stand up to their responsibilities and sort out what they did wrong collectively instead of blaming each other (which i'm sure they'll do).

 

[Bramley]

To be honest regarding what happened in the ground, seems like a few pissed up Cockneys on the pitch has got everyone's bum flapping in the media.

I don't tend to believe what I read in the press as there seems to be a constant appetite to express moral indignation about absolutely everything. Has this always been an British trait?

Not heard anything about Millwall's chanting, but do like their "E-I-O, E-I-O" chant. And I've heard that first hand if that qualifies my opinion a little more.

 

[Bramley]

That sounds a good argument for racist abuse of black players.

Disagree Darren, provided the remarks aren't necessarily racist I suspect most of the language has been heard by most adult males in pubs, bars, banter amongst friends. We can't completely sanitise everything.

 

[Darren]

ModtheGod said:

" is it not part of the crowd's job to try and intimidate the players? If we can get under the skin of the opposition and unsettle them, shouldn't we do it? I'm pretty sure hearing that stuff aimed at me would really upset me and definitely put me off my game."

Given that racist abuse would tend to get under the skin of black opposition players and unsettle them, upset them and put them off their game, I repeat that his argument amounts to an argument in support of all kinds of abuse, including racist abuse.

 

[Bramley]

And I'll reiterate...provided the remarks aren't necessarily racist I suspect most of the language has been heard by most adult males in pubs, bars, banter amongst friends. We can't completely sanitise everything.

 

[Darren]

That may be true, but it wasn't ModtheGod's argument.

I am not suggesting that MTG is racist or that there is something to be said for his/your point of view; just that his justification is a poor one!

 

[Bramley]

Yeah no worries Darren, I'm in agreement with you.

Good to have you on here, I contributed in various guises on BU for almost 10 years. Towards the end yours were about the only posts I looked out for.

 

[noire]

I also seem to remember a banner along the same lines on the Kop too.

There was those horrid songs but there was never any banner.

The Star published a story as FACT that we were going to all be wearing Galatasary Shirts and have Galatasary banners at the match a few days before. Not that there are completely biased against us and will make anything up.

The media around here is a joke.

 

[BarcaBlade]

Ah well, my bad then.

I have to admit to not having even read any of the news about Davenport.

 

[Deleted member 1486]

In yesterdays reports of the West Ham v Millwall madness the BBC linked a page which referenced this book (one I'd never come across before):

Football hooligans: knowing the score

You can read the first three chapters on that link (google books). It's an interesting read about Sheffield United hooligans in the 80s/90s. Among all the usual "pub X getting smashed up" stuff there are some great little stories such as the guy who ran into a tree and knocked himself out resulting in three coaches full of Blades getting arrested for his "murder" :thumbup: and Blades sitting in with West Ham at Hillsborough

 

[DazBlade88]

The thing that's really bugged me about the entire thing , is that somebody was stabbed. If they're going to fight, at least fight like men and use fists. There's no reason for weapons to be used, it's for cowards.

I'm not condoning the fighting, but it happens. Unfortunately, you have to accept it in football. Next time we go to West Ham I can see alot of similar things happening to be honest.

 

[moDtheGod]

That sounds a good argument for racist abuse of black players.

What absolute rot. I assumed I wouldn't have to qualify certain parameters on here.

You could argue that sending death threats to players in the run up to a game would unsettle them, so perhaps as fans we should do that. But obviously, that's ridiculous. Much like shouting racist abuse at players is ridiculous.

I'm clearly talking about things that are allowed, or perhaps more specifically, things that aren't NOT allowed.

 

[moDtheGod]

I would also like to object to the use of the word "justification" after my post. I did not attempt to justify ANY of the chanting and I clearly stated my opinion on the matter (or in actual fact, my lack of an opinion) and stated that my post was purely playing devil's advocate.

My justification may well be poor, but you haven't heard me try to justify anything yet.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

At the lane, whenever there is a large crowd or a game with potential for pitch invasion Stewards go to Code red (or whatever the announcement is) which means pay attention and stand up.

Phase 5?

kjouyt

 

[beightonblade]

Violence ......... no need for it.

The late 60's and 70's (early 70's were worst) violence was the norm for some at football matches and the Blades had sum reight bad lads.
The infamous acid incident gaining national press coverage, but nearly every week sumat was going off. Back of the kop then at BDTBL the atmosphere was electric......... different era. The incident at wet spam/milwall was handbag stuff.