United fans and pessimism

[Darren]

Just done a few calculations about the run in, based on the average of the points gained by the teams the contenders still have left to play, which I think is a good way of judging how good their opponents are - the higher the total the harder the games lef

On home games, it works out thus

United 42
Wednesday 42
MKD 48
Hudds 57

Away

MKD 36
Hudds 43
United 46
Wed 51

Overall

MKD 42
United 44
Wed 47
Hudds 48

Points to be gleaned are that MKD have unusually "easy" away list and Hudds an unusally "hard" home one, with Wednesday's away list being pretty hard as well. Other than that its much of a muchness.

One thing no-one else has pointed out is that, of Hudds 11 games left, only 4 are at home. That in itself make may make automatic very difficult for them.

 

[Toronto Blade]

A draw at in form Colchester is a valuble point.
Lets not forget they just thumped Charlton and are now unbeaten at home in their last 6, they have their eye on the playoffs.

 

[Selly]

Just done a few calculations about the run in, based on the average of the points gained by the teams the contenders still have left to play, which I think is a good way of judging how good their opponents are - the higher the total the harder the games lef

On home games, it works out thus

United 42
Wednesday 42
MKD 48
Hudds 57

Away

MKD 36
Hudds 43
United 46
Wed 51

Overall

MKD 42
United 44
Wed 47
Hudds 48

Points to be gleaned are that MKD have unusually "easy" away list and Hudds an unusally "hard" home one, with Wednesday's away list being pretty hard as well. Other than that its much of a muchness.

One thing no-one else has pointed out is that, of Hudds 11 games left, only 4 are at home. That in itself make may make automatic very difficult for them.

4 home games, of which 2 of them are:

Charlton
Wednesday

Not easy at all...

 

[moDtheGod]

You are forgetting the new manager syndrome - which possibly explains both sides recent upsurge.

This doesn't exist. One day, I'm going to find the time to prove it. It's a total myth.

 

[BladeFisher]

This doesn't exist. One day, I'm going to find the time to prove it. It's a total myth.

Well it clearly didn't work with Micky Adams!

 

[judge]

Or the 4 before him
I think the stats say its about 50/50 don't they ?

 

[moDtheGod]

I've never seen any stats. My own theory is about one in three but as I say, I've nothing to prove it. In another thread where I suggested this, Darren knocked something up which sort of agreed with it, but from an incredibly limited sample size (was it related to the starts of Sheffield United managers?). One day, I will put some effort into it.

 

[Deleted member 875]

The pessimism is hard to bear to be honest, and i think it handicaps the club.

Looking back to the 2009 play off final. Burnley scored early on, and United fans stayed quiet as a mouse for the rest of the match. It was almost as if we was resigned to a defeat from that point on, which we was. But had we got behind the side, and believed we could have turned it round, then maybe we might have found a way back in to that match and gone on and won it.

 

[BladeFisher]

post: 397993"]The pessimism is hard to bear to be honest, and i think it handicaps the club.

Looking back to the 2009 play off final. Burnley scored early on, and United fans stayed quiet as a mouse for the rest of the match. It was almost as if we was resigned to a defeat from that point on, which we was. But had we got behind the side, and believed we could have turned it round, then maybe we might have found a way back in to that match and gone on and won it.

Pessimsm my arse! Realism more like.

Were you there when screaming alice scored in the last minute? When Newcastle turned us over at Old Trafford and Arsenal? The Arsenal game was arguably the best Utd have played in a semi-final. We deserved it that day and got fa. And so it goes on, the Wolves play off final. Just where do we stop? Utd are crap big time when it comes to the crunch games. Its frigging winning that matters not coming second!!

Jesus, Darren et al says be positive and I know we want to be positive but ffs when you have been following the Blades since '68 we have won what? Absolutely buggar all. Oh hang on one measly 4th Division Championship!!

I hurt like hell over this because I am so bloody passionate about the Blades. Just for once why can't they deliver. Just about every other 'medium/big club has won something except Sheffield United since I have been following them. I just want them to win one bloody meaasly trophy - justy one before I die, and that's why it pisses me off so much that we are a bunch of perpetual bridesmaids.

Clubs that are arguably the same size as Utd that have won something since 1970 include Middlesbro, Southampton, Portsmouth, Stoke City, Wolves, Norwich, Birmingham, Derby, Forest - Wednesday. But oh no not United. So you see we do get frustrated that this stupid inept cycle just goes on.

I think ironically for me it was when we lost to bloody Bristol sodding Rovers in the Watney Cup final that it set in. All those years ago. We had a wonderful team and couldn't beat that crap losing on penalties. Jee whiz. We've come close in play off finals and a few facup semis but as usual we just can't get over the line.

As a final serious point has anyone ever done any stats on what other club has such a shit record since WWII given the size of its support? I bet we are top by a mile.

But you just hope that one day they'll actually do it - but I am beginning to give up that they actually ever will. UTB

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I've never seen any stats. My own theory is about one in three but as I say, I've nothing to prove it. In another thread where I suggested this, Darren knocked something up which sort of agreed with it, but from an incredibly limited sample size (was it related to the starts of Sheffield United managers?). One day, I will put some effort into it.

One in three matches were won by a new manager in 09-10

http://youngsportswriters.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/new-manager-syndrome-does-it-really-exist/

I wouln't mind seeing the stats against the new managers 1st 5 games actually.

 

[Kenilworth]

post: 397993"]Looking back to the 2009 play off final. Burnley scored early on, and United fans stayed quiet as a mouse for the rest of the match. It was almost as if we was resigned to a defeat from that point on, which we was. But had we got behind the side, and believed we could have turned it round, then maybe we might have found a way back in to that match and gone on and won it.

I thought that we were noisy until Mike Dean failed to give the first pen when Howard was brought down - then it quietened down cos we knew we were agaisnt 12 men
Then he failed to give a pen for the push in the box on Kyle Walker in the second half and that was about it.
Didn't help that we had no strikers available and fit (BT2 not being fit to be a striker) and didn't create any real goal mouth action (which is what gets the crowd going)
Once again the team didn't turn up. Blackwell's tactics were limited and we had already been outclassed by Burnley on two other occasions that season.
Hardly suprising there wasnt that much optimism around for that final.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I thought that we were noisy until Mike Dean failed to give the first pen when Howard was brought down - then it quietened down cos we knew we were agaisnt 12 men
Then he failed to give a pen for the push in the box on Kyle Walker in the second half and that was about it.
Didn't help that we had no strikers available and fit (BT2 not being fit to be a striker) and didn't create any real goal mouth action (which is what gets the crowd going)
Once again the team didn't turn up. Blackwell's tactics were limited and we had already been outclassed by Burnley on two other occasions that season.
Hardly suprising there wasnt that much optimism around for that final.

I was saying in t'pub t'other day that when you look at 1997 and 2003 it was obvoius that something had badly misfired on the day, with 2009 it was as though we'd set out to be that crap.

 

[judge]

I thought that we were noisy until Mike Dean failed to give the first pen when Howard was brought down - then it quietened down cos we knew we were agaisnt 12 men
Then he failed to give a pen for the push in the box on Kyle Walker in the second half and that was about it.
Didn't help that we had no strikers available and fit (BT2 not being fit to be a striker) and didn't create any real goal mouth action (which is what gets the crowd going)
Once again the team didn't turn up. Blackwell's tactics were limited and we had already been outclassed by Burnley on two other occasions that season.
Hardly suprising there wasnt that much optimism around for that final.

That's all true but anyone who walked through bOth sets of fan areas before the match would have thought they had already won and we were just having a laugh and a pint with a few mates

 

[Guesty]

Our fans were in the exact same mood in 2003 though and that didn't stop the team collapsing.

 

[Revolution]

Looking back to the 2009 play off final. Burnley scored early on, and United fans stayed quiet as a mouse for the rest of the match. It was almost as if we was resigned to a defeat from that point on, which we was. But had we got behind the side, and believed we could have turned it round, then maybe we might have found a way back in to that match and gone on and won it.

This puts me in mind of 2003. So many amazing things had happened that year that even at 0-3 down, when we were awarded a penalty, you could feel a comeback in the air. I thought it might happen. People around me thought the same. Everyone was willing Brown to score.

And Brown missed - for the first time that season, of course - kicking us all in the teeth again.

It's not the fans. It's the players (and the managers). Thirty odd players have featured in playoff final games for us, and you can count the good performances on the fingers of one hand.

 

[Worksop_Blade]

However much we want to believe it, the fans make little difference to the players performance especially in huge games such as finals.

Little old doncaster with their <25,000 fans helped prove that when they beat Leeds and their 45,000 fans the other year at wembley.

The reason why we keep performing so badly in the big games is the first thing I'm asking St Peter for.

 

[Kenilworth]

However much we want to believe it, the fans make little difference to the players performance especially in huge games such as finals.

Little old doncaster with their <25,000 fans helped prove that when they beat Leeds and their 45,000 fans the other year at wembley.

The reason why we keep performing so badly in the big games is the first thing I'm asking St Peter for.

You are right of course. There are plenty of examples where a club has achieved success against the odds, where such teams have had far fewer fans at the game than the opposition. They just don't involve the Blades (the success bit that is).

Of course a good, loud and vociferous support can make a difference to a team and drive them on but they cannot always make up for a fundamental lack of quality or bottle.

If that were the case then Wimbledon would never have won anything

 

[beightonblade]

the truth is were just shit in crunch games.

 

[Bladesman]

I was saying in t'pub t'other day that when you look at 1997 and 2003 it was obvoius that something had badly misfired on the day, with 2009 it was as though we'd set out to be that crap.

Yeah I went to Wembley with no expectations really and I was hoping the new Wembley would be better than I thought.

It was more a nosey round the Wembley stadium rather than going for the match.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

As a final serious point has anyone ever done any stats on what other club has such a shit record since WWII given the size of its support? I bet we are top by a mile. But you just hope that one day they'll actually do it - but I am beginning to give up that they actually ever will. UTB

Yes, Darren did some stats a couple of years ago:-

http://www.s24su.com/forum/showthread.php?15513-Under-achievement-Index&p=194663

You won't be surprised to see that we're the biggest under-achievers along with Derby.
And that's only because the stats go begin at 1976 just after Derby stopped being good!

 

[Kenilworth]

Yes, Darren did some stats a couple of years ago:-

http://www.s24su.com/forum/showthread.php?15513-Under-achievement-Index&p=194663

You won't be surprised to see that we're the biggest under-achievers along with Derby.
And that's only because the stats go begin at 1976 just after Derby stopped being good!

Sad thing is we have got worse in the last 3 years since this was done.
If only Darren would get off his arse and update the table - we could see for sure

 

[Grecian2000]

However much we want to believe it, the fans make little difference to the players performance especially in huge games such as finals.

Little old doncaster with their <25,000 fans helped prove that when they beat Leeds and their 45,000 fans the other year at wembley.

The reason why we keep performing so badly in the big games is the first thing I'm asking St Peter for.

Absolutely on the money.

All this "we could have turned it around with the fans more vocal" is just horse shit. I well remember the mid seventies when we went to Aston Villa in a cup tie, we filled the giant away end because we were in the fourth round for the first time in some years and they were in the division below. We had a real chance of the first cup run since '68. It was bedlam that day with scrapping all afternoon, and as a big and vocal an away following as we ever got in those days. The score? 4-1 pasting.
Does anyone think Arsenal were louder than us at OT in 2003? Made not a jot of difference as always.

Matches are won and lost between the 11 on the pitch and, sometimes, the coaching staff but never by the crowd.

 

[dannycorker]

Maybe I'm not old enough (only 20) to be too pessimistic yet, I always seem to end up optimistic. Even last season I wouldn't quite accept that we were going down until full time at the Barnsley game. And ever since our great start to the season this year I've been quietly confident we'll go up. So I'm staggered to read some of the fans views after certain games ie Colchester the other night. No idea why half of the moaners ever bother supporting us they don't seem to get much enjoyment out of it!

 

[Bladesman]

Absolutely on the money.

All this "we could have turned it around with the fans more vocal" is just horse shit. I well remember the mid seventies when we went to Aston Villa in a cup tie, we filled the giant away end because we were in the fourth round for the first time in some years and they were in the division below. We had a real chance of the first cup run since '68. It was bedlam that day with scrapping all afternoon, and as a big and vocal an away following as we ever got in those days. The score? 4-1 pasting.
Does anyone think Arsenal were louder than us at OT in 2003? Made not a jot of difference as always.

Matches are won and lost between the 11 on the pitch and, sometimes, the coaching staff but never by the crowd.

True plus all I could hear on Tuesday night over the radio was our fans singing none stop start to finish.

Did we win? Nope.

Support helps to a point maybe but its down to the players to perform regardless of the fans.

 

[sheafviewblade]

Pessimsm my arse! Realism more like.

Were you there when screaming alice scored in the last minute? When Newcastle turned us over at Old Trafford and Arsenal? The Arsenal game was arguably the best Utd have played in a semi-final. We deserved it that day and got fa. And so it goes on, the Wolves play off final. Just where do we stop? Utd are crap big time when it comes to the crunch games. Its frigging winning that matters not coming second!!

Jesus, Darren et al says be positive and I know we want to be positive but ffs when you have been following the Blades since '68 we have won what? Absolutely buggar all. Oh hang on one measly 4th Division Championship!!

I hurt like hell over this because I am so bloody passionate about the Blades. Just for once why can't they deliver. Just about every other 'medium/big club has won something except Sheffield United since I have been following them. I just want them to win one bloody meaasly trophy - justy one before I die, and that's why it pisses me off so much that we are a bunch of perpetual bridesmaids.

Clubs that are arguably the same size as Utd that have won something since 1970 include Middlesbro, Southampton, Portsmouth, Stoke City, Wolves, Norwich, Birmingham, Derby, Forest - Wednesday. But oh no not United. So you see we do get frustrated that this stupid inept cycle just goes on.

I think ironically for me it was when we lost to bloody Bristol sodding Rovers in the Watney Cup final that it set in. All those years ago. We had a wonderful team and couldn't beat that crap losing on penalties. Jee whiz. We've come close in play off finals and a few facup semis but as usual we just can't get over the line.

As a final serious point has anyone ever done any stats on what other club has such a shit record since WWII given the size of its support? I bet we are top by a mile.

But you just hope that one day they'll actually do it - but I am beginning to give up that they actually ever will. UTB

Mate that is why we will never do owt, its your attitude that sums up many many Blades fans, beaten before we get on the pitch. Our fans were so quite in the Burnley game it was embarrassing , I wonder sometimes if we really gave the lads our all ,whether we could help them over the line instead of barracking and critisising the lads.

 

[99.9%Blade]

I went tuesday night and to be fair the best thing about the night was our support, we did sing from start to finish and it looked like we had more supporters than them. Did we play well?......... NO!, Chedder be Cheds was by far and way our best player, but Colchester made it tough for us, even from my vantage point I struggled to pick out passes as space seemed to be at premium. Lets hope we have got over our wobbles, and start to hit form again at the right time, cos on recent performances we are heading for play off heart break again........... and in a cruel twist of fate I can see it been to the hands on the Swillers!........ PLEASE GOD NOT PLAY OFF AGAIN!!!!! UTB

 

[diplomat]

This season still has some twists and turns but I'm not pessimistic. We've got a striker on fire. Key players to come back. We can do this.

 

[Ollessendro]

I happen to think we are a cynical and pessimstic bunch. More so than other fans? Difficult to say. Perhaps it is proportionate, like some have suggested. We've had a torrid time over the last 30 years. We've had some good times, but as a club there have been a lot more negatives since I've been supportive. I am a glass half empty person when it comes to supporting United and find myself getting overly concerned when things go wrong.

I think it is natural that fans are a bit worried about our wobble. It's all good and well saying 'we're still second', when a few weeks ago we 'had one foot in the Championship'. Before losing K Mac we were 5 points clear and with 2 games in hand. Suddenly we are 2 points clear and are wobbling. You could argue that it has been a good come back after the Oldham and Walsall debacles, but we could be out of sight. Fuck me we could be breathing down Charlton's neck. Instead we're really nervously looking over our sholders. Yet fans are being pessimistic. If our current form continues, then we could finish 5th or 6th.

Part of this is down to expectations and circumstances. I was there on Tuesday and first half Ciolchester were truly woeful. They lumped everything long, looked cluess and looked beaten. United were in 2nd gear and in the lead. The irony is that, just as we stepped into 3rd gear we conceded. We switched off and let them back in. We fell to pieces for 20 minutes. Still you felt we had the quality to beat them. It was plain to see that if we got the ball on the deck, we'd create chances. Unfortunately we looked clueless and hoofed it to Porter. Another worry for me is that nerves have crept into our game and we have stopped playing the patient passing game we saw before. In the final 10 we really pressed and looked like we might score. My thoughts were why the fuck did we not play like that earlier? So I think anyone who went on Tuesday will feel 2 points dropped and if you think back to a few weeks ago and where we were thenit is difficult not to be pessimistic.

All that said, we're still in a good position. The key for me is getting 2 of our best players back. If we get Collins back then we are solid again. We don't concede goals and we don't lose games. Anyone else feel Collins prescence would have stopped most (if not all) of the 7 goals conceded in the 3 games where we've dropped points? We're still good enough to beat teams witout him, but if K Mac comes back then we are complete. We can get back to our passing game and put teams to the sword.

 

[Balham]

If Collins comes back, it's likely that Williams will drop out. That alone would increase our ability to hold onto the ball massively.

 

[Selly]

If Collins comes back, it's likely that Williams will drop out. That alone would increase our ability to hold onto the ball massively.

With Hill moving to Left back?

Have I missed a reason that Taylor hasn`t played since the Walsall game???