U23s away at Crewe

[Redhead]

The club has been piss poor for a while in terms of bringing academy players through and giving them a chance. May sound a daft statement given the high profile successes but how many youngsters never get a chance or get a chance, do OK and disappear?

I'm all in favour of this new approach of sending players out on loan. I just don't really understand why the U-23 squad is not being used to keep squad players fit. It's no wonder they're shit when they come in as they've mainly just trained and nothing else.

I am pleased you think this regards academy players coming through. I am surprised you are not accused of being an academy players parent.

It is a fact though. There is only so long you can jump on the back of Walker, Naughton and Maguire.

 

[robbiez666]

I am pleased you think this regards academy players coming through. I am surprised you are not accused of being an academy players parent.

It is a fact though. There is only so long you can jump on the back of Walker, Naughton and Maguire.

I've been banging on about it for years. It's much more difficult now given our league position, but when we were in League 1 it was criminal that players from the Academy were not being given a chance. At best, they'd warm the bench or play once, do ok and then never play again.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I don't know enough about Liverpool's or Manchester United's Academy system to judge that. But, I'm very happy to take your word that they too are Academy Blocked. We definitely are at the moment. Not saying that's wrong. Not saying we need to do something about it. Just saying that we are.

We aren’t to the extent that the pigs were under Carlos, they had a specific edict from Mr Chansiri to go for expensive players rather than bring through youth. I was told this by one of their academy heads. They now seem to have changed tact and they can’t afford to do that anymore.

You watch the games so you know really but my assumption would be that if they were good enough, they would be in the team. I don’t think Wilder would consciously leave out good players.

 

[robbiez666]

We aren’t to the extent that the pigs were under Carlos, they had a specific edict from Mr Chansiri to go for expensive players rather than bring through youth. I was told this by one of their academy heads. They now seem to have changed tact and they can’t afford to do that anymore.

You watch the games so you know really but my assumption would be that if they were good enough, they would be in the team. I don’t think Wilder would consciously leave out good players.

It's not that simple though. Take Brooks as an example. He was about to be sent out on loan to a League 2 club but because he had a good international tournament the deal was pulled. The rest is history. His ability wasn't spotted in the U-23s or in training but through sheer luck that he excelled in a summer tournament.

Youngsters won't normally just obviously be ready. They need an opportunity. As a club, we're often frustratingly disinclined to provide it and would rather play players who we know aren't good enough instead.

If Brooks had gone out on loan to a struggling club, what are the chances that he'd have a similar impact to Gilmour and end up being sold?

 

[Chali 2na]

Which of our 16 17 and 18 year olds are being BLOCKED?

I think you're missing his point.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I think you're missing his point.

Or perhaps you're missing mine.
If the young pros are out on loan (as Walker and Calvert-Lewin were), the 16-18 year old academy lads are playing for the U23s. If the young pros weren't out on loan they could be accused of being academy blockers.

 

[Chali 2na]

Or perhaps you're missing mine.
If the young pros are out on loan (as Walker and Calvert-Lewin were), the 16-18 year old academy lads are playing for the U23s. If the young pros weren't out on loan they could be accused of being academy blockers.

I'm not missing yours, your clearly offended by the notion that our pathway from the academy to 1st team is blocked (or whatever terminology you want to use.)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the academy graduates on loan though, perhaps I'm missing your point there?

The fact is, very few academy graduates have stepped up in recent years, and Wilder seems to resist opportunities to play them - I'm not saying that's wrong, it's just an observation.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

If Brooks had gone out on loan to a struggling club, what are the chances that he'd have a similar impact to Gilmour and end up being sold?

A struggling club like Halifax?

His ability wasn't spotted in the U-23s or in training but through sheer luck that he excelled in a summer tournament.

He played for the first team before the tournament.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the academy graduates on loan though, perhaps I'm missing your point there?

They've freed up the space for the academy lads to play for the U23s. If they weren't out on loan they could be accused of being academy blockers.

 

[Chali 2na]

They've freed up the space for the academy lads to play for the U23s. If they weren't out on loan they could be accused of being academy blockers.

What difference does that make if the pathway from U23s to the first team is seemingly blocked too?

Those players out on loan are making space in the 23s, but what use is that if none of them will ever make a senior appearance?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

What difference does that make if the pathway from U23s to the first team is seemingly blocked too?

Those players out on loan are making space in the 23s, but what use is that if none of them will ever make a senior appearance?

Which of our U23s are good enough to get in a top Championship side?

 

[McGrath]

I do wonder with how hard it is to find the talent for Uniteds academy these days. Some of the Premier League academies are like black holes who's gravitational pull sucks in all around it.

With the money on offer, the inducements and the facilities from some of the top clubs for young talent. Could it be that United just struggle to get the best local players through in the academy and that's why we don't see to many?

 

[Chali 2na]

Which of our U23s are good enough to get in a top Championship side?

Did I say any were? I must have missed that.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

We have risen v quickly from the L1 abyss to the top levels of the Championship. In a number of transfer windows, we gambled on players to help us in the situation we were then in. We have moved past those players now. A small number have been sold - eg Ryan Leonard. A number are on loan. With no prospect of playing for Utd ever again - eg Nathan Thomas, Ricky Holmes, Samir Carruthers, Lavery. A number are still at the club training every day. With no prospect of playing in a league game ever again - eg Wright. The second string who played on Saturday have a number of players who we would only really use in a dire emergency - eg Johnson, Stearman. I don't think of any of the players mentioned, or the categories as poor signings. Just signings we've outgrown. To me, it looks bloated. I feel we need a strategy for reducing the number of signed players who realistically won't play for the club in the league again. I feel that needs doing anyway. And, that would create a shorter route to the first team for any "Brooksalike" who popped up.
The signed players who we've moved past are just victims of the happy circumstances we've been through more recently

 

[Houston_Blade]

It's not that simple though. Take Brooks as an example. He was about to be sent out on loan to a League 2 club but because he had a good international tournament the deal was pulled. The rest is history. His ability wasn't spotted in the U-23s or in training but through sheer luck that he excelled in a summer tournament.

Youngsters won't normally just obviously be ready. They need an opportunity. As a club, we're often frustratingly disinclined to provide it and would rather play players who we know aren't good enough instead.

If Brooks had gone out on loan to a struggling club, what are the chances that he'd have a similar impact to Gilmour and end up being sold?

According to a few people Louis Reed would now be plying his trade in the PL for Bournemouth!

 

[1889]

But I suppose the counter ‘blocking’ argument is, are there any lads who have left Uniteds academy and gone on to have a career in the highest standards of professional football, who didn’t get the opportunity to play for our first team ?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

What difference does that make if the pathway from U23s to the first team is seemingly blocked too?

Those players out on loan are making space in the 23s, but what use is that if none of them will ever make a senior appearance?

If our manager doesn't think they're ready for Championship football they won't play. To say that there is no use in sending them out on loan because of this is an infantile argument.

 

[Chali 2na]

If our manager doesn't think they're ready for Championship football they won't play. To say that there is no use in sending them out on loan because of this is an infantile argument.

I know if our manager doesn't think they're ready for Championship football they won't play - it's a very sensible policy.

What are you on about? When did I say there was no use I'm sending them out on loan??

 

[BushBlade]

It's not that simple though. Take Brooks as an example. He was about to be sent out on loan to a League 2 club but because he had a good international tournament the deal was pulled. The rest is history. His ability wasn't spotted in the U-23s or in training but through sheer luck that he excelled in a summer tournament.

Youngsters won't normally just obviously be ready. They need an opportunity. As a club, we're often frustratingly disinclined to provide it and would rather play players who we know aren't good enough instead.

If Brooks had gone out on loan to a struggling club, what are the chances that he'd have a similar impact to Gilmour and end up being sold?

It wasn’t sheer luck though. He got picked for England based on his U23s performances. Every game our youth players play are watched by scouts, from other clubs and from the national set ups. Same as DCL was scouted.

The issue is; do you keep kids at the club where their first team opportunities are limited or send them out on loan so they can get games under their belt? We’ve gone for the latter, all our young players who are anywhere close to first team football are out on loan, learning their trade.

For example, we could have kept Slater but he’d struggle to displace Fleck and Norwood, we could have kept Semple but we’re not going to drop Bash, JOC or Egan so how much game time would he get?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

A number are still at the club training every day. With no prospect of playing in a league game ever again - eg Wright. The second string who played on Saturday have a number of players who we would only really use in a dire emergency - eg Johnson, Stearman. I don't think of any of the players mentioned, or the categories as poor signings. Just signings we've outgrown. To me, it looks bloated. I feel we need a strategy for reducing the number of signed players who realistically won't play for the club in the league again. I feel that needs doing anyway. And, that would create a shorter route to the first team for any "Brooksalike" who popped up.
The signed players who we've moved past are just victims of the happy circumstances we've been through more recently

I agree with your sentiment but the club are moving players on (Lafferty) and it looks like Wright is on his way. Stearman has made 10 appearances this season and Johnson 9.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

What are you on about? When did I say there was no use I'm sending them out on loan??

What difference does that make if the pathway from U23s to the first team is seemingly blocked too?

Those players out on loan are making space in the 23s, but what use is that if none of them will ever make a senior appearance?

Have I misunderstood you? Did you mean there is no use playing the young lads in the U23s?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

.

For example, we could have kept Slater but he’d struggle to displace Fleck and Norwood, we could have kept Semple but we’re not going to drop Bash, JOC or Egan so how much game time would he get?

Semple has proved his fitness in 27 games. Slater is only 19 and played 24 times this season already.
Harry Kane was loaned to 4 different clubs whilst he learned his trade.

 

[Nick Jansky]

But I suppose the counter ‘blocking’ argument is, are there any lads who have left Uniteds academy and gone on to have a career in the highest standards of professional football, who didn’t get the opportunity to play for our first team ?

Kevin Davies? Can’t think of any others.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Kevin Davies? Can’t think of any others.

Good point, but Davies was pre-academy times.

 

[Booker4]

I don't know enough about Liverpool's or Manchester United's Academy system to judge that. But, I'm very happy to take your word that they too are Academy Blocked. We definitely are at the moment. Not saying that's wrong. Not saying we need to do something about it. Just saying that we are.

One way of looking at it is that we're blocking the Academy lads. I would say they don't play because they're not yet good enough, as judged by where these lads end up at - i.e. Conference or League 2. If we'd played Tyler Smith of late then he wouldn't be able to go out on loan again and now to League One. So these lads are clearly improving but does that mean that they should be good enough for us yet? I would guess no, and some, not saying you particularly, think that means that Wilder isn't giving them a chance.

 

[1889]

Kevin Davies? Can’t think of any others.

Yeah, forgot about him. He’s a good example, but that was pre shirecliffe academy, wasn’t it?

 

[BushBlade]

Semple has proved his fitness in 27 games. Slater is only 19 and played 24 times this season already.
Harry Kane was loaned to 4 different clubs whilst he learned his trade.

Yes I know. Why are you quoting half my post to make it look like I’m saying something I’m not?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Liverpool now have 16 17 & 18 year olds on in their Cup game.

And Klopp is being hammered all morning on on Talksport for it. Similar to the stick dished out for CW giving Kean Bryan his debut.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Yes I know. Why are you quoting half my post to make it look like I’m saying something I’m not?

I agreed with your post. I was adding to your point about Semple and Slater but if I'd quoted all your post that bit would have been faded out!

 

[Chali 2na]

Have I misunderstood you? Did you mean there is no use playing the young lads in the U23s?

I think we may have both misunderstood eachother, my apologies. I'll clarify my opinion:

I think (rightly or wrongly) there is no path from the academy to the first team at the moment. (Some might say the path is "blocked" - though that's becoming a divisive term)

There seems to be 2 schools of thought, either:

• The academy graduates aren't good enough to get into the team.

Or

• The academy graduates aren't getting a chance to prove their worth in the team.

I think there's probabaly an element of truth in both.

Ball_Sup (Phil) made the good point that no academy graduates featured on Sunday, due to the fact we have 2 senior players for every position - you can either look at this as a sign of our strength and depth or alternatively, you can view it as a blockade for academy graduates trying to break into the squad - the fact is that it's probabaly both.