Truth or narrative: which are you?

[dellasthunderbolt]

Recent talk of Berge’s performances (or either world beater or dog shit- never a reasoned middle ground) has got me wondering whether or not most of us watch football in a reasoned way or whether we approach the game with a predetermined narrative that we either for to the action we see or retrofit to our review of matches. This is not a dog at anyone rather a genuine question. I can’t now tell if I do one or the other. I watched the game th me other night and saw the aforementioned Norwegian as playing a fairly average game- others saw him be utter shite or a world beater on the way back from an injury. Can we all be right? I think this has happened throughout my time watching United, with scapegoats being the most obvious symptoms (ie forgetting how much Montgomery contributed besides Jagielka in midfield in our distant promotion season because he was most definitely a clogger who couldn’t kick a ball straight). And this phenomenon extends far beyond United. Think about the narrative around Keegan’s Newcastle and the great entertainers tag - now look back and see how they scored relatively few goals and based their success on a tight defence. So do we see the truth or simply what we want to see to confirm our own theories ( legend/waste of space)? Is Berge shite or brilliant or actually somewhere in the middle?

 

[Freddie]

Heidegger Heidegger was a boozy beggar
He could drink you under the table
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart
I drink therefore I am.

 

[A_Bladesman]

Recent talk of Berge’s performances (or either world beater or dog shit- never a reasoned middle ground) has got me wondering whether or not most of us watch football in a reasoned way or whether we approach the game with a predetermined narrative that we either for to the action we see or retrofit to our review of matches. This is not a dog at anyone rather a genuine question. I can’t now tell if I do one or the other. I watched the game th me other night and saw the aforementioned Norwegian as playing a fairly average game- others saw him be utter shite or a world beater on the way back from an injury. Can we all be right? I think this has happened throughout my time watching United, with scapegoats being the most obvious symptoms (ie forgetting how much Montgomery contributed besides Jagielka in midfield in our distant promotion season because he was most definitely a clogger who couldn’t kick a ball straight). And this phenomenon extends far beyond United. Think about the narrative around Keegan’s Newcastle and the great entertainers tag - now look back and see how they scored relatively few goals and based their success on a tight defence. So do we see the truth or simply what we want to see to confirm our own theories ( legend/waste of space)? Is Berge shite or brilliant or actually somewhere in the middle?

Berge is class but suffers from injury, better to be brought off the bench when required. When you may need the key to enter a locked door. His reputation in on the international level, he's that good but suffers abuse from a couple of home fans.

 

[FriethBlade]

Dellas....I think the academics call it 'confirmation bias' and it exists in all forms of life....eg Remainers see any negative economic news as 'proof' that Brexit is a disaster, Brexiteers see any negative EU news as 'confirmation' that we were right to leave....and so on

It's also why the same players win MOM time after time, for example I would have given last night's MOM to McAtee but Illiman won it, he had a great game but I believe its partly because he's 'the man of the moment' that he won it and not McAtee.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Dellas....I think the academics call it 'confirmation bias' and it exists in all forms of life....eg Remainers see any negative economic news as 'proof' that Brexit is a disaster, Brexiteers see any negative EU news as 'confirmation' that we were right to leave....and so on

It's also why the same players win MOM time after time, for example I would have given last night's MOM to McAtee but Illiman won it, he had a great game but I believe its partly because he's 'the man of the moment' that he won it and not McAtee.

McAtee scored one of the goals of the season, but Ndiaye got 2 assists. I can see why. I get the rest of your post though

 

[A_Bladesman]

Dellas....I think the academics call it 'confirmation bias' and it exists in all forms of life....eg Remainers see any negative economic news as 'proof' that Brexit is a disaster, Brexiteers see any negative EU news as 'confirmation' that we were right to leave....and so on

It's also why the same players win MOM time after time, for example I would have given last night's MOM to McAtee but Illiman won it, he had a great game but I believe its partly because he's 'the man of the moment' that he won it and not McAtee.

Mcatee put in a bad challenge Vs the home team at leads but also received some disaster challenges himself which we're sending offs in my eyes. They will only complain when he steals somebody's shirt or something.

 

[dellasthunderbolt]

Dellas....I think the academics call it 'confirmation bias' and it exists in all forms of life....eg Remainers see any negative economic news as 'proof' that Brexit is a disaster, Brexiteers see any negative EU news as 'confirmation' that we were right to leave....and so on

It's also why the same players win MOM time after time, for example I would have given last night's MOM to McAtee but Illiman won it, he had a great game but I believe its partly because he's 'the man of the moment' that he won it and not McAtee.

Confirmation bias - was thinking of the phrase and there it is. Would explain why everyone (or at least most most of the time) think the referee is crooked/ shite / blind as they see their own team as perennially wronged

 

[coaxingstar71]

I think Berge has become one of those enigmatic players. He was a huge signing for us at around £20m and with that came all the expectations as he was apparently being courted by some major clubs and it was seen as a major coup that little old Sheffield United had signed this young star. On top of that, his sheer presence as a 6 foot 5 strapping lad gives the impression that he has the physicality to bully opposing players. I think most Blades fans envisioned a player who was going to tear up the league and produce barnstorming, game dominating, rampaging performances from centre midfield.

The reality is very different. I wrote on one of the many threads about Sander that he just isn't the player we envisioned he would be and we needed to adjust from our initial expectations. I suppose this confirms the 'confirmation bias' theory.

I would describe is playing style as 'laconic' or 'languid'. He gives that impression that he's not putting in 110%, however I'm sure that's not true. I think most of us can see he's got loads of ability, there are times where his skill and movement are a joy, however I think for most of us, it's frustrating that these are fleeting and for large parts of games he doesn't seem to be as involved as we think he should be or he seems to take too long to do things and gets caught. I also think he gets fouled a lot but doesn't get protection from refs, due to his size.

I like him though. He does score goals from midfield, an area where we previously lacked, but what I really like is that after 2 years of everyone saying he'll be off somewhere or other, he has never once said he's unhappy or wants a move and genuinely seems to enjoy playing for the club. He's a top professional if nothing else.

 

[Champagneblade]

Dellas....I think the academics call it 'confirmation bias' and it exists in all forms of life....eg Remainers see any negative economic news as 'proof' that Brexit is a disaster, Brexiteers see any negative EU news as 'confirmation' that we were right to leave....and so on

It's also why the same players win MOM time after time, for example I would have given last night's MOM to McAtee but Illiman won it, he had a great game but I believe its partly because he's 'the man of the moment' that he won it and not McAtee.

Agree the last comment, for instance:
Here's how Argentina line up, Man of the Match Messi

If some of the sublime passing of Norwood was from an Italian player with a flash name or a South American with a singular name, the media would be all over it. You'll see very few better passes than the bending cross field ball to Baldock in the Derby game from Norwood yet a far less complex slide rule pass from a 'name' player will get played over and over.

 

[metalblade]

The only fans moaning about Sander Berge are the "up and at em crew" the sort of fans who the other night were wanting fucking Gary Madine back for Christ Sake, as a club we have moved on from such cloggers leave them at Blackpool and the like they are where they are for a reason. I'd much rather watch players who have the technical ability which always shines through if you match a cloggers work rate. Did Madine score the other night or do anything of not other than push and try to bully our defenders? NO.
Back to Sander Berge, absolute quality but he still has a few areas of his game that do need work, he can be too laid back you don't get so much time in the championship before a clogger is kicking lumps out of you and he needs to work on his heading which for a tall guy is frankly abysmal. Otherwise he is a joy to watch clearly a thinker who picks out the right pass without doing anything spectacular and breezes past defenders time after time. I do agree with those saying he doesn't get protection from referee's due to his size.

 

[Weasel]

Berge gets better the fitter he is. This is the same for any player but some do seem to ride with their niggles and knocks better than Sander does. He's like a thoroughbred horse. Get everything right for it and have it fit and happy and it will go like the clappers. But it doesn't take much for it to be literally not at the races. If we do go up then is having SB would be great next season as he is a far better player now than when we bought him and he has experienced the physicality and slog of the championship and will be a much better player for it. Still young too. He's a frustrating at times but is genuinely a quality player on his day and PL class. If we go up then the £20m we paid for him suddenly looks cheap again, especially if we can coax h into signing a new contract.

 

[ancientblade]

Berge gets better the fitter he is. This is the same for any player but some do seem to ride with their niggles and knocks better than Sander does. He's like a thoroughbred horse. Get everything right for it and have it fit and happy and it will go like the clappers. But it doesn't take much for it to be literally not at the races. If we do go up then is having SB would be great next season as he is a far better player now than when we bought him and he has experienced the physicality and slog of the championship and will be a much better player for it. Still young too. He's a frustrating at times but is genuinely a quality player on his day and PL class. If we go up then the £20m we paid for him suddenly looks cheap again, especially if we can coax h into signing a new contract.

hes so much more dangerous when he plays higher up the pitch thats his position he just hasnt got the physicality to play in a deeper role thats why a strong physical dm is needed imo although doyle could be the answer once hes fully fit again

 

[Superblades]

Berge is getting better each game. Is that his 3rd full game since coming back? Another 3/4 games and he will be back to his best. You can’t expect a player to come back from an injury and be at the top of his game straight away.

 

[Zipwire]

Berge gets better the fitter he is. This is the same for any player but some do seem to ride with their niggles and knocks better than Sander does. He's like a thoroughbred horse. Get everything right for it and have it fit and happy and it will go like the clappers. But it doesn't take much for it to be literally not at the races. If we do go up then is having SB would be great next season as he is a far better player now than when we bought him and he has experienced the physicality and slog of the championship and will be a much better player for it. Still young too. He's a frustrating at times but is genuinely a quality player on his day and PL class. If we go up then the £20m we paid for him suddenly looks cheap again, especially if we can coax h into signing a new contract.

I don’t need to write anything about Sander Berge as you have just said more or less the same things that I think about him. The only other thing I’ve got to add is that he is one of those players who seems to take his time to get back to full form after injury. The first three or four games after he gets back from injury he noticeably isn’t at his best. Very similar to Fleck

 

[JJBlade]

The problem with Berge is he is a world beater, or at least he can be,
He's a very strange one

The other problem with Berge is he is only close to being a worldbeater if he is
1) 110% fit (even 100% fit isn't fit enough)
2) Played in a role where he has no defensive responsibilities (despite supposedly being a defensive midfielder)

 

[broomhillblade]

We alll have our favourites, and it is difficult to e completely objective. This is why I don't like those sports which rely on judges to award points. 'Proper' sports should be determined by something that can be measured.

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

McAtee scored one of the goals of the season, but Ndiaye got 2 assists. I can see why. I get the rest of your post though

Let's be honest here, the second was hardly that much of an assist, and the real hard work for the first was done by Bogle

 

[Mike325]

some truth some narrative

 

[10-0 win]

His defensive play is probably his greatest impact in the team,not blocks and last second tackles,but diciplined defencive running.Hench why he,s on for 90 min. He also has the impact to make a few runs forward that very often creates a goalscoring opportunity. Would be surprised if he does not run the most during a game in Osborns absence.(osborn best at moving legs)

 

[Sheffsteel]

I think Berge has become one of those enigmatic players. He was a huge signing for us at around £20m and with that came all the expectations as he was apparently being courted by some major clubs and it was seen as a major coup that little old Sheffield United had signed this young star. On top of that, his sheer presence as a 6 foot 5 strapping lad gives the impression that he has the physicality to bully opposing players. I think most Blades fans envisioned a player who was going to tear up the league and produce barnstorming, game dominating, rampaging performances from centre midfield.

The reality is very different. I wrote on one of the many threads about Sander that he just isn't the player we envisioned he would be and we needed to adjust from our initial expectations. I suppose this confirms the 'confirmation bias' theory.

I would describe is playing style as 'laconic' or 'languid'. He gives that impression that he's not putting in 110%, however I'm sure that's not true. I think most of us can see he's got loads of ability, there are times where his skill and movement are a joy, however I think for most of us, it's frustrating that these are fleeting and for large parts of games he doesn't seem to be as involved as we think he should be or he seems to take too long to do things and gets caught. I also think he gets fouled a lot but doesn't get protection from refs, due to his size.

I like him though. He does score goals from midfield, an area where we previously lacked, but what I really like is that after 2 years of everyone saying he'll be off somewhere or other, he has never once said he's unhappy or wants a move and genuinely seems to enjoy playing for the club. He's a top professional if nothing else.

Good post.

Although I've voiced some negative criticism of Berge I've also mentioned his qualities too.
Overall he DOES show spells of Premier League quality, it's more about frustration when he fades away from games.
I like him as a person and enjoy watching him play.

I'm more of a balance type of person and think it's more about understanding what type of player you have.
In the past we've tended to have reliable steady eddy players who play as a cog in a team like Osborn, Fleck, Baldock.
Now we've moved into a territory where we've acquired some players who show signs of top quality.

Players with top quality tend to be inconsistent otherwise they'd be worth over £60 million and out of our price range
but at least we know that if the likes of Berge, N'Dieye, McAtee, Bogle and McBurnie are on their A game
then we ARE THE BEST team in the league and I'd even expect us to beat Burnley away.
We played our A game for only 20 minutes in the Bramall Lane league match and blew the league leaders away.

Also if these players hit top form and show consistency next season they are all easily good enough for the Premier League.

 

[Cassius Kray]

There's no such thing as objective truth. It's all socially constructed and subjective. Whether or not Berge is a good player isn't an inviolate fact which exists independently in the world, and nobody watching him does so free from the biases of their own perspective and the broader social contexts.

 

[Charlieblade]

Berge is his own worst enemy. As a youth player, he has grown up with international and euro club style of play which gives him more time on the ball.
First he gets thrown into the EPL, and struggles to adjust. Last season he is exposed to the pace and rigors of EFL Championship football, only recently finding that he is selected in a completely different position as an attacking midfielder.
He is a bit too nice a person for his own good. Early half of this season, he has to adjust to attacking midfield, but with injuries to other players, he is required to do some leg work off the ball defensively.
He has the physique but not the English game background to call on.
Must be confusing for the lad, knowing he is so capable, but his natural style doesn’t really fit the English game. He is literally a square peg in a round hole.

Still plenty of work required on his game if he wants to be a success at the top of the game. Probably better suited to a top European side. His EPL and EFL experience will come in handy.

 

[PokerBlade]

I would describe is playing style as 'laconic' or 'languid'. He gives that impression that he's not putting in 110%, however I'm sure that's not true. I think most of us can see he's got loads of ability, there are times where his skill and movement are a joy, however I think for most of us, it's frustrating that these are fleeting and for large parts of games he doesn't seem to be as involved as we think he should be or he seems to take too long to do things and gets caught. I also think he gets fouled a lot but doesn't get protection from refs, due to his size.

I like him though. He does score goals from midfield, an area where we previously lacked, but what I really like is that after 2 years of everyone saying he'll be off somewhere or other, he has never once said he's unhappy or wants a move and genuinely seems to enjoy playing for the club. He's a top professional if nothing else.

Very much agree with you.

The other thing is the lad's on our list of unlucky with injuries. Before the last one I felt like he was starting to show more and more of himself and now he's getting back up to speed again. My main criticism of him is he gets caught out being too casual on the ball but I put this down to inexperience more than anything. He also has that look of players his build where they never look like they're running fast even when they're sprinting past people. The way he took his last goal was top draw, the way he strides past people is unreal at times, it's all about him getting a run of games and starting to impose himself more.

I still see it that he's clearly going to be a Prem player for someone, it's just a question of how far up the chain.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

There's no such thing as objective truth. It's all socially constructed and subjective. Whether or not Berge is a good player isn't an inviolate fact which exists independently in the world, and nobody watching him does so free from the biases of their own perspective and the broader social contexts.

I was going to say that is exactly right, but of course there is no objective truth... On football, there is no single truth, it is all about opinions, and it is much better to argue about trivial things than to declare civil war on the important issues of the times. And many opinions make more sense than others. I could say that experience is important in football, and that we should therefore sign a team of 60-year-olds; I wouldn’t fancy our chances of promotion, though

 

[theoneandonly36]

To me, he always seems to do two or three good things a game. When pushed by the manager, we see him run past people with the ball and he can slot it in when he gets a chance. Left to his own divides he strokes it around, building up his pass complete ratio.
He can’t get up and down with as much mobility as others because of his size and always seems languid and coming back from injury i.e. not at full fitness.
A passenger who wins games is always going to cause divided opinion.

 

[Frank the tank]

He is nowhere near his best form at the moment hes patchy but his good patches are getting more and more prominent and influential
For me he is a matchwinner and if we were in the play off final i would want him in the side regardless of his weaknesses

 

[A_Bladesman]

To me, he always seems to do two or three good things a game. When pushed by the manager, we see him run past people with the ball and he can slot it in when he gets a chance. Left to his own divides he strokes it around, building up his pass complete ratio.
He can’t get up and down with as much mobility as others because of his size and always seems languid and coming back from injury i.e. not at full fitness.
A passenger who wins games is always going to cause divided opinion.

He is a big lad agreed, well he has a 40 year plan to start off as a passenger and end up driving da bus to the champions league final vs Ajax.

 

[nopigfansintown]

It's a fitness thing with Berge and always has been.

Season one: Getting up to pace amd physique of PL until lockdown. Played great after the lockdown.

Season two. Was outstanding until the serious injury.

Season three. Rushed back and managed really badly until he was injured again. No pre season and was broken due to playing two to three games in a week when nowhere near fit. Unsurprisingly does his other hamstring.
Later was managed better and played a huge part in our astronomical rise in the play offs after he'd recovered and worked on his fitness that season.

This season: Class start to the season until unusual injury in October. United's best results and performance coincide with Berge being in the team. Gets injured. Takes him time to get up to speed but results are again great with him on the team. Is now fading in the second half of matches but is playing 2-3 games a week so it's understandable.

As long as he remains fit he will benefit from these games post QPR, when we go to one game weeks until April. I just hope he remains fit as the best is still to come this season.

 

[Sheffsteel]

A passenger who wins games is always going to cause divided opinion.

Love that description, that's kind of what he is at the moment.

Think the key issue is having a player with the ability to "win games" is a rare and valued commodity that should be coveted.
Where as Berge weaknesses can much easier be worked on and improved. It makes sense to remain patient and support him.

Remember when N'Dieye always seemed knackered after 70 minutes and often seemed too light weight falling down under challenges.
We all wondered if he's ever handle English football but he must have been on the weights in the Summer because this season he looks so strong and fit.
He rides challenges with ease and even when fouled still manages to stay on his feet.

Makes you wonder if Berge just needs a focussed Summer on the weights building up his strength and fitness, so he remodels himself and finally takes advantage of his height and physique. Also he probably needs to psychology sessions to build up his aggression on the pitch. He has the potential to be a top PL player.

 

[BigBed]

I think its because Berge is a frustrating player.
We all know, even the haters, and I admit, at first, I just didn't rate him at all, but, when I began to understand him as a player, I changed my opinion of him, and I'm happy to hold my hands up to that!
The thing that frustrates me with Berge, is his apparent inconsistencies, he has the ability to be a game changer, but, he has to be in whatever zone he gets himself into, and then he glides past players like they aren't even there, he can shoot, he can hold up play, make some lovely passes, and set up goals, but, when he isn't in that zone, he looks disjointed, he sometimes doesn't look bothered, he hardly ever makes that winning tackle, he gives the ball away too easily and just doesn't seem to want to fight for it back?
We know what he can do, which makes it more frustrating when he isn't doing it, and I know all players have off days, but its because of his ability and the hype around him that magnifies this more than say Fleck or Steven's who we know are playing at their peak.