Tough times ahead...

[Bramley]

...McCabe taking his money out, remains to be seen the extent of how much he's been subsidising. Like all people with big property portfolio's he's obviously taken a massive hit.

So what do we do now? I think the options are simple for each Blade...

(a) Stick with the club through continual reduction of the wage bill as we attempt to live in our own means;

or...

(b) Don't renew your tickets, membership and stop coming down the Lane;

I'm not judging individual Blades either way, but that to me is the stark reality and we've all got to make the decision.

At least we know where we stand now, all the conjecture, conspiracy theories and the rest are pretty pointless.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

The flip side is that as the property market picks up so should our revenue.

 

[Bramley]

Of course, banks just aren't lending for larger schemes though. It'll be at least 12 months before things even pick up.

I think generally we're in reasonable shape, my concern though is that people will not renew season tickets because the disappointment and disillusionment amongst some is palpable. Back to 18,000 of us rattling around methinks.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Great call from Jason on Football Heaven BTW.

 

[broomhillblade]

...McCabe taking his money out, remains to be seen the extent of how much he's been subsidising. Like all people with big property portfolio's he's obviously taken a massive hit.

.

I don't think Birch said that McCabe is taking his money out.

He's just not going to put any more in.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I don't think Birch said that McCabe is taking his money out.

He's just not going to put any more in.

Yeah he's only put £25 Million as well, wanker.

 

[lenners]

I don't think Birch said that McCabe is taking his money out.

He's just not going to put any more in.

He's already taking it out, the Tevez money and incoming transfer money is earmarked to pay some of his debt.

 

[happyhippy]

He's already taking it out, the Tevez money and incoming transfer money is earmarked to pay some of his debt.

And to be honest that is understandable. Look at it from a business point of view. Let's face it, we all know that it is a business more than ever now.

We also all know that there is little liquidity at the Lane, so clearing club debts at a time when (let's face reality) bonuses are coming in is good husbandry. When the property business picks up again, then he may invest further, or his companies may. Meanwhile, we're pretty much where we have been since the end of the War in footballing terms.

McCabe, his family and businesses are here for the long term. Kevin himself may step out of the limelight, but that isn't to say that his backing disappears.

I think that people are personalising this far too much (again). Kevin McCabe is not a bottomless pit of money. We don't have a Jack Walker, Abramovich or shady foreign owner who will throw £££££££££££££££ at the club.

In financial terms, we're in the best state we've been in in my lifetime. The debt is serviceable. Let's face it, it's also 'friendly' debt. Go back to the days of Brealey et al, and anybody tell me you were comfortable then. Remember when we had managers who had to help to fund transfers? When we had "Fred West's Garden"? When we had Chairmen who suddenly were wanted by Interpol?

Look. The days of the benefactors are gone. He's put more in than you and I will ever earn in our lifetime between us, and no, we may not have progressed as much as he would have wanted.

One thing is for certain though. He's done, and put in more than you or I could ever actually hope to do.

When you're in a position to say that you've spent £50m on a club which was a 'dead man walking', then moan about the Chairmanship. Until then, shut up.

The footballing aspect? Yes, we all hate what we've seen in recent times. Then again, I can't remember the days when Pele and Jairzinho terrorised the defences of Newport County down here either. Despite all our disappointments, and I do moan about the performances too, this is the best I've seen this club run.

Maybe it's time to remind people of "The Hare and Tortoise", and that maybe this is the second race. We only lost the other race (relegation under St Neil) by one goal, remember.

 

[Revolution]

I think that people are personalising this far too much (again). Kevin McCabe is not a bottomless pit of money. We don't have a Jack Walker, Abramovich or shady foreign owner who will throw £££££££££££££££ at the club.

Kevin McCabe is certainly not an Abramovich, but his resources and Jack Walker's resources during his heydey aren't as far apart as you suggest.

In financial terms, we're in the best state we've been in in my lifetime.

This is manifestly not true. In terms of total debt, United are in their worst position in their history.

In terms of day to day operations, the constraints on the club so far as wages and transfer fees are concerned, evidenced by selling all of our good players, are as bad as they have been since the 1998-2001 fire sales, and are arguably worse than they were then.

Remember when we had managers who had to help to fund transfers? When we had "Fred West's Garden"? When we had Chairmen who suddenly were wanted by Interpol?

The Chairman of Chengdu Blades is in jail, accused of match fixing and embezzlement. Robinson seems to have left under something of a cloud if rumours are to be believed (though I might add that I do not for a moment put McCabe in that bracket).

Look. The days of the benefactors are gone. He's put more in than you and I will ever earn in our lifetime between us, and no, we may not have progressed as much as he would have wanted.

One thing is for certain though. He's done, and put in more than you or I could ever actually hope to do. When you're in a position to say that you've spent £50m on a club which was a 'dead man walking', then moan about the Chairmanship. Until then, shut up.

This is all true. It's just sad that the cycle is repeating itself again. Just like with Brearley and McDonald, the funding is stopped when the job isn't completed. So, yet again, we reset the clock on the success cycle, and we are still in the same position as we were 10 years ago, only we owe tons more money and have fewer good young players.

 

[happyhippy]

]Kevin McCabe is certainly not an Abramovich, but his resources and Jack Walker's resources during his heydey aren't as far apart as you suggest.

I'd venture to differ. Walker sold his one asset for cash. McCabe's value is basically down to his estate. Walker bought a Premiership title, and then the money ran out. They then got relegated.

McCabe would have to sell further resources to free up cash to create the same collateral.

In financial terms, we're in the best state we've been in in my lifetime.

This is manifestly not true. In terms of total debt, United are in their worst position in their history.

In terms of day to day operations, the constraints on the club so far as wages and transfer fees are concerned, evidenced by selling all of our good players, are as bad as they have been since the 1998-2001 fire sales, and are arguably worse than they were then.

That isn't looking at it relative terms. The overall debt is higher, but currently serviceable. In 1993 we had to effectively ask for a Crisis Loan from Bassett to sign Gayle.

Remember those days? We are a damned sight safer than at any time in my lifetime.

Remember when we had managers who had to help to fund transfers? When we had "Fred West's Garden"? When we had Chairmen who suddenly were wanted by Interpol?

The Chairman of Chengdu Blades is in jail, accused of match fixing and embezzlement. Robinson seems to have left under something of a cloud if rumours are to be believed (though I might add that I do not for a moment put McCabe in that bracket).

Nothing really to do with the day to day running of Sheffield United. What happens with the satellite teams will have nothing to do with Sheffield United, unless United money is directly involved in any wrong doing.

This is all true. It's just sad that the cycle is repeating itself again. Just like with Brearley and McDonald, the funding is stopped when the job isn't completed. So, yet again, we reset the clock on the success cycle, and we are still in the same position as we were 10 years ago, only we owe tons more money and have fewer good young players.

We never had that many good young players really. The difference is that the wolves aren't at our door any more. Would you rather be a Portsmouth?

Just one thing though. I like your reasoned arguments and generally sensible ramblings, but please use the "Quote" tags, and not italics? It makes replying to people so much easier!

 

[happyhippy]

See! It's all buggered up

 

[Revolution]

That isn't looking at it relative terms. The overall debt is higher, but currently serviceable. In 1993 we had to effectively ask for a Crisis Loan from Bassett to sign Gayle.

Those were the days, signing Premiership quality players on a permanent basis.

Our debt was serviceable then. We did not go out of business, and we never held a fire sale like this one. I see little difference between borrowing the money to pay for Gayle and flogging off good players to sign the likes of Cresswell. In fact there's an argument it's worse.

We never had that many good young players really. The difference is that the wolves aren't at our door any more. Would you rather be a Portsmouth?

Now that Chainrai is in charge, maybe. I'd swap their last 10 years for ours in a heartbeat.

My best guess is both ourselves and Portsmouth will be in the same league next year, with roughly the same level of debt. Portsmouth will not be wound up this season.

Just one thing though. I like your reasoned arguments and generally sensible ramblings, but please use the "Quote" tags, and not italics?

No.

 

[lenners]

Blimey, that's a hard post to follow but I'm pretty sure Jack Walker continues to support Blackburn through a trust fund and what happens at Chengdu does affect the day-to-day running of SUFC as we own it.
Last year it cost us £2m - but I do think of all the foreign fannying around this might be the most worthwhile long term.
And I bet there are very few Blades who wouldn't rather we were Portsmouth. In the months to come, there are going to be many more who will be envious of several other clubs who've been in heavy debt who are about to go past us.
Talk of at least we're not this, that and the other will start to sound very hollow.

 

[Micalijo]

Clapper 1 - 'At least under McCabe we won't be like a Watford'

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Blimey, that's a hard post to follow but I'm pretty sure Jack Walker continues to support Blackburn through a trust fund and what happens at Chengdu does affect the day-to-day running of SUFC as we own it.
Last year it cost us £2m - but I do think of all the foreign fannying around this might be the most worthwhile long term.
And I bet there are very few Blades who wouldn't rather we were Portsmouth. In the months to come, there are going to be many more who will be envious of several other clubs who've been in heavy debt who are about to go past us.
Talk of at least we're not this, that and the other will start to sound very hollow.

The flip side is that we've come (so we are to believe) out of a massive world wide recession not owing the banks a penny and McCabe isn't banging on the door wanting it all back. I still think it's going to get a lot worse for plenty of clubs over the next few seasons whereas financially, we should only improve.

What I do object to is the likes of Leeds going into administration which in effect gives them a nice clean slate to start from. Presuming they go up, they will probably have much more financial clout than us next season which is completely wrong.

 

[lenners]

The flip side is that we've come (so we are to believe) out of a massive world wide recession not owing the banks a penny and McCabe isn't banging on the door wanting it all back. I still think it's going to get a lot worse for plenty of clubs over the next few seasons whereas financially, we should only improve.

What I do object to is the likes of Leeds going into administration which in effect gives them a nice clean slate to start from. Presuming they go up, they will probably have much more financial clout than us next season which is completely wrong.

I agree about Leeds - whatever they achieve is tainted by Bates and I wouldn't want him anywhere near our club.
As for the rest, a lot depends on McCabe's own business and how badly he wants/needs his money out of United. He's already taken a lot so maybe that'll be enough for a while.
But if we're cutting our cloth, there are going to be more deep cuts at the end of the season and the likes of Ward will almost certainly go.
Naysmith will be off the wage bill but we could do with another gem coming through the ranks to sell-off.

 

[Micalijo]

The flip side is that we've come (so we are to believe) out of a massive world wide recession not owing the banks a penny and McCabe isn't banging on the door wanting it all back. I still think it's going to get a lot worse for plenty of clubs over the next few seasons whereas financially, we should only improve.

What I do object to is the likes of Leeds going into administration which in effect gives them a nice clean slate to start from. Presuming they go up, they will probably have much more financial clout than us next season which is completely wrong.

I don't get this at all. Blades Realty owes millions to the bank and I don't think the formal end to the recession means that they are shifting any properties for the price they want.

Why do you thinkw e owe nothing to the bank?

We own 50% of Realty. McCabe owns the other 50%. WHat can he sell at a profit now? Football players. Where can he cut costs? Football club? He can't knock a block of flates down and write the debt-off.

I'm interested in it no doubt. I don't pretend to understand it all by any means but I am alarmed at what to me are the serial misunderstandings that are displayed on here.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I agree about Leeds - whatever they achieve is tainted by Bates and I wouldn't want him anywhere near our club.
As for the rest, a lot depends on McCabe's own business and how badly he wants/needs his money out of United. He's already taken a lot so maybe that'll be enough for a while.
But if we're cutting our cloth, there are going to be more deep cuts at the end of the season and the likes of Ward will almost certainly go.
Naysmith will be off the wage bill but we could do with another gem coming through the ranks to sell-off.

You'd presume that the fact McCabe's pulled the shutters up suggests he's gone as far as he wants to but it doesn't suggest to me that he's demanding it back although obviously any investment that Birch secures would initially either pay the McCabe's off at at least share the burdon of debt. As Bob says elsewhere though, if the property market picks up, so will McCabe's finances and by association SUFC's.

 

[Micalijo]

I agree about Leeds - whatever they achieve is tainted by Bates and I wouldn't want him anywhere near our club.
As for the rest, a lot depends on McCabe's own business and how badly he wants/needs his money out of United. He's already taken a lot so maybe that'll be enough for a while.
But if we're cutting our cloth, there are going to be more deep cuts at the end of the season and the likes of Ward will almost certainly go.
Naysmith will be off the wage bill but we could do with another gem coming through the ranks to sell-off.

I think Ward went about 4 weeks ago judging by recent efforts.

 

[lenners]

You'd presume that the fact McCabe's pulled the shutters up suggests he's gone as far as he wants to but it doesn't suggest to me that he's demanding it back although obviously any investment that Birch secures would initially either pay the McCabe's off at at least share the burdon of debt. As Bob says elsewhere though, if the property market picks up, so will McCabe's finances and by association SUFC's.

Birch confirmed that McCabe's pulled the shutters up.
The accounts confirm that chunks of incoming money are already ring-fenced to pay off McCabe.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I don't get this at all. Blades Realty owes millions to the bank and I don't think the formal end to the recession means that they are shifting any properties for the price they want.

Why do you thinkw e owe nothing to the bank?

We own 50% of Realty. McCabe owns the other 50%. WHat can he sell at a profit now? Football players. Where can he cut costs? Football club? He can't knock a block of flates down and write the debt-off.

I'm interested in it no doubt. I don't pretend to understand it all by any means but I am alarmed at what to me are the serial misunderstandings that are displayed on here.

It would be nice if we had it all in layman's terms and maybe when the next accounts come out, some kind person can do that

I seem to remember when we went up to the Prem we owed about £11M. Now that may have been football club debt, debts to McCabe, Academy building debt, 'new corner', I don't know. Maybe that was what they are now calling 'football debt' and we did owe a lot more than that. If not, how we've got to £48M given the income, increased ST sales since then is a bit of a mystery although it seems to point to the hotel.

If you take what Birch says as red, transfers have pretty much balanced themselves out over that period (including wages ?) so from that perspective, we haven't spent any more than we would have if we'd stayed in the CCC.

At the end of the day, it's what my missus calls 'robbing Peter to pay Paul', shuffling the cash/debt around from pot to pot when in reality the overall debt is still £48M. Who knows

 

[Micalijo]

As many have said, the size of the debt isn't a problem in itself if it is matched by assets, preferably income generating assets sufficient to pay off interest at least.

My view is that our problem, wherever it is held, is that the means of meeting the debt payments has been buggered by the recession.

I believe that we have no debt in SUFC Ltd but that is totally irrelevant in my opinion and a total red herring for McCabe and Trev to sell easily to fans

 

[lenners]

Haven't got the accounts in front of me but pretty sure the hotel did not pay for itself last year. Fair to point out that it had only just opened but it'll be interesting to see if it does this year.
If it doesn't, money will have to be found from elsewhere in the business to pay for it.
The only assets we have are players and most of the saleable ones have now gone.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Why don't we just sign the hotel over to McCabe and call it quits :thumbup:

 

[Fiery Blade]

It appears like most property tycoons McCabe has been a very lucky man investing in property at the right time
Problem is he didn't get out at the right time and all this bollox regarding 'off the field activities' to give the business a revenue stream outside football has slapped his face!
McCabe he's just a chancer and a liar to boot!!!

 

[Bramley]

It appears like most property tycoons McCabe has been a very lucky man investing in property at the right time
Problem is he didn't get out at the right time and all this bollox regarding 'off the field activities' to give the business a revenue stream outside football has slapped his face!
McCabe he's just a chancer and a liar to boot!!!

I wish I was lucky enough to make that amount of money.

He put money in, he doesn't want to put anymore in. That's that.

 

[Isiah]

Not even sure what the detail is any more, so many figures have been bandied about, but if we owe £2M on overdraft as a football club, £20M on long term loan aginst the Hotel as a Property Company and £26M to Mr Mc. either directly or indirectly as a mix of the two then the major proportion of our debt is down to Mr Mc's decision to take a football club into the property business.
I don't believe he did this with the intention of putting SUFC on queer street, but I do believe he had more of an eye on what he and his various companies could get from the arrangement than he did on the potential benefits to SUFC.
On top of this he now seems to be the sole benefactor of any monies raised from asset sales and has ring fenced the Tevez money in his favour.
As a number on here have said, nothing wrong with that on a purely business footing, but are these really the actions of a benefactor and a Blade?
Can we please at least see the man for what he is, a very succesful - so far - hard nosed business man who, as the benefits in his association with SUFC diminish rapidly, is doing what all hard nosed business men would do - getting out asap.

 

[Bramley]

Not even sure what the detail is any more, so many figures have been bandied about, but if we owe £2M on overdraft as a football club, £20M on long term loan aginst the Hotel as a Property Company and £26M to Mr Mc. either directly or indirectly as a mix of the two then the major proportion of our debt is down to Mr Mc's decision to take a football club into the property business.
I don't believe he did this with the intention of putting SUFC on queer street, but I do believe he had more of an eye on what he and his various companies could get from the arrangement than he did on the potential benefits to SUFC.
On top of this he now seems to be the sole benefactor of any monies raised from asset sales and has ring fenced the Tevez money in his favour.
As a number on here have said, nothing wrong with that on a purely business footing, but are these really the actions of a benefactor and a Blade?
Can we please at least see the man for what he is, a very succesful - so far - hard nosed business man who, as the benefits in his association with SUFC diminish rapidly, is doing what all hard nosed business men would do - getting out asap.

I think it is in reality a bit of both and I think that's as good as you will get from a football owner. If Birch gets us some people in to invest I think McCabe or one of the clan will stick about in the boardroom.

Either way I think he's done more good than bad and relative to Macdonald, Brearley etc, I think he's been the best Chairman I've known.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

It appears like most property tycoons McCabe has been a very lucky man investing in property at the right time
Problem is he didn't get out at the right time

I thought that's precisely what he had done and this article appears to confirm it? According to this, he sold the bulk of his empire at the peak of the market and reinvested just 25% of the £150M he made.

http://www.propertyweek.com/story.asp?storycode=3092768

"After selling the bulk of his assets overseas, what is next for Kevin McCabe?

When a successful UK property entrepreneur sells the bulk of his empire to an overseas company at the peak of the market, you tend to think he will run off into the sunset with his pockets bulging.

But Kevin McCabe, although personally £150m wealthier as a result of the sale of much of his UK and European direct property and fund management business last month, is reinvesting more than a quarter of the money in Valad, the Australian-listed company that bought him out. He has also retained a £500m UK and China-based portfolio of assets.

As part of the sale for £250m – £865m including debt – of most of Scarborough, McCabe agreed to reinvest A$100m (£42m) in Valad shares and join Valad’s board.

‘We were a European company,’ McCabe tells Property Week. ‘OK, the UK has peaked, but Europe hasn’t, and Valad has bought a European company. Also, it has bought a business, not just a portfolio."

 

[LouTheBlade]

I cant understand why anyone would want to invest in a football club. No one makes money out of football. Its a constant loss. As much as I love it, its the last thing I would invest my millions in (if I had millions)!