The McCabe issue

[Patrick Suffaux]

funny how no one mentions buying davis 4m beattie 4 m ched 3 mill craig beattie 1 mill howard 1 million
fathi 1, 5 mill danny webber -5million pesch 250k nade around a million and fees arouns 250 -1 million for
hulse stead , kabba bromby kilgallon unsworth tonge armstrong geary , even 600k on leigertwood and luton shelton
funny how we always forget the buys
only remember who we sold which is said by some to go straight into mcabes pockets , well who bought the above

A few factual inaccuracies in there but hey.....whatever suits your argument! I'm not going to pick all of that apart it would take too long. Main one is that Craig Beattie was a long signing.

I don't think we paid 5 million for Danny Webber.

You're right we didn't. Even the 0.5m is debatable. Danny Cullip went to Watford as part of the deal if I remember right. Initially both went on loan.

 

[blade too long]

yes the fees are miniscule compared to wage costs , which is whats crippled us
I just get fed up of fans who only ever see the departure lounge

mccabes bought the players we sold in most cases or paid for the academy , another point thats over looked

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

All of which is classed as income when it was decided. The cashflow aspect doesn't alter when it was recognised in the P&L, just where it's recognised in the balance sheet.



Talk about twisting the facts to suit your argument! There's always debate about transfer fees but:

Ones you've understated:
Hulse: £2.2m, sold for £1.75m
Kilgallon: £1.75m in, sold for £500k
Shelton: £1.85m(!) but we sold him to Valerenga for £1m.

Ones you've got right:
James Beattie: £4m, sold to Stoke £3.5m
Evans: in £3m but I thought at least some of the fee was success dependent?
Stead: £750k but sold to Ipswich for £600k
Kabba: £250k, sold to Watford for £500k
Leigertwood: £600k, sold to QPR for £900k
Webber: £500k.

Ones you've got quite wrong:
Brian Howard: £500k, sold to Reading for £500k
Fathi: £700k

Ones you've got really wrong:
Claude Davis: In £2.5m - £1.5m less than you said. We also sold him to Derby for £3m
Craig Beattie: in on loan, maybe £100k? Nowhere near the £1m you've said
Nade: £0 (free transfer). Not a £1m player.
Unsworth: £0
Bromby: £0
Geary: £50k
Armstrong: £100k, sold to Reading for £500k
Tonge: came through our youth system
Over the years we've made far more money from transfers than we've spent but that has all gone on paying the wage bill.

Those are far more accurate.

 

[blade too long]

All of which is classed as income when it was decided. The cashflow aspect doesn't alter when it was recognised in the P&L, just where it's recognised in the balance sheet.



Talk about twisting the facts to suit your argument! There's always debate about transfer fees but:

Ones you've understated:
Hulse: £2.2m, sold for £1.75m
Kilgallon: £1.75m in, sold for £500k
Shelton: £1.85m(!) but we sold him to Valerenga for £1m.

Ones you've got right:
James Beattie: £4m, sold to Stoke £3.5m
Evans: in £3m but I thought at least some of the fee was success dependent?
Stead: £750k but sold to Ipswich for £600k
Kabba: £250k, sold to Watford for £500k
Leigertwood: £600k, sold to QPR for £900k
Webber: £500k.

Ones you've got quite wrong:
Brian Howard: £500k, sold to Reading for £500k
Fathi: £700k

Ones you've got really wrong:
Claude Davis: In £2.5m - £1.5m less than you said. We also sold him to Derby for £3m
Craig Beattie: in on loan, maybe £100k? Nowhere near the £1m you've said
Nade: £0 (free transfer). Not a £1m player.
Unsworth: £0
Bromby: £0
Geary: £50k
Armstrong: £100k, sold to Reading for £500k
Tonge: came through our youth system
Over the years we've made far more money from transfers than we've spent but that has all gone on paying the wage bill.

Ones you've forgotten:
Naysmith: £1m
Akinbiyi: £1.75m (yes, really)

The upshot is that we've only really spent (net) £1m on Evans, Kilgannon, Akinbiyi and Naysmith in the past 10 years.

 

[raul]

He's got you there Balham.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Detail the ones he's got wrong and tell us why.....

 

[super_pig]

14m for Craig Beattie seems a bit on the high side too.

LMAO
14 meg for Craig Beattie.. give me a break

 

[blade too long]

where is 14 m for craig beattie ?
making shit up now

the only point made was some only ever offer the sales up , never the buys , which nett over the period wont be far off level overall

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Wiki states the following:-

Brian Howard - Initially joined on loan with option to buy (I vividly recall it was estimated at 600k - 750k).
Ahmed Fathi - 700k
Craig Beattie - 3 month loan.
Claude Davis - 3m with an additional 500k based on appearances.
Christian Nade - No mention of a fee.
David Unsworth - No mention of a fee but seems to indicate Ipswich released him.
Geary & Bromby - No fees mentioned.
Chris Armstrong - No fee mentioned (but 200k seems to ring a bell).
Michael Tonge - You're sure he didn't come through our academy? Would you like to bet?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

What these list of players shows also is that on the whole Warnock’s much-maligned Premiership signings were players on Championship wages, of the right age, with a resale value and most are playing at Premiership or Championship level even now (Hulse, Stead, Shelton, Leigertwood, Fathi, Kazim-Richards, Kilgallon). If kept together (along with the best home-grown players) they could have given us years of service without unduly stretching our finances.

By contrast, many of Robson’s signings were on Premiership wages, over 30 and on 3 year contracts with little or no resale value at the end of them (Beattie, Naysmith, Hendrie, Speed, Ehiogu, Carney). None of them are now playing regularly at a decent level and their unaffordable contracts are what caused us to sell the good players we did have. It’s clear where the true blame lies for our demise.

 

[Isiah]

As with all posts on this topic, no-one has enough factual information to prove their argument or disprove others. Mr McCabe has set up a corporate structure which is complex enough and private enough in part to prevent a diffinative argument without his full and open co-operation. There are a number of non football spin offs which could have generated profit for or added asset value to the MaCabe empire which would not have accrued without his involvement with United and which are rarely taken into account, largely for the same reasons.

The bottom line is that, as a football club, we no longer own our ground, we do not own our academy which many seek to give credit to Mr McCabe for setting up and we are playing at a lower level than was the case when Mr McCabe took over. Add to this the level of influence and control Mr McCabe has over all things Sheffield United and the possibility of any investment other than a buy out of the McCabe holdings is highly unlikely.

At that point Mr McCabe would seem to value his "investment" at a level far in excess of it's value in order to recoup his "losses". I think it's called a catch twenty two in polite circles.

 

[Pedro Verde]

thats why its .5 million

Why not put 0.5m or 500k then we would know

 

[alcoblade]

we actually had to pay for john street stand, did you think it was put up for free, and 17 miillion since 1999 is a very conservative estimate on ground improvement / maintenance, been 4 pitches worth 2 million

Wow, so McCabe even paid for Mike McDonald's work. I take it all back, he's clearly a saint.

Tip though fella, if you want to debate these things, taking the rose tinted specs off helps ever so slightly

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

when we get it , they are paying in bits

It's already counted for on our books though.

UTB

 

[blade too long]

It's already counted for on our books though.

UTB

thats accounting though, notes of intent , promises to pay are used to balance the books , dont mean its anything but on paper

 

[blade too long]

Wow, so McCabe even paid for Mike McDonald's work. I take it all back, he's clearly a saint.

Tip though fella, if you want to debate these things, taking the rose tinted specs off helps ever so slightly

UTB

mcdonald ordered the building of the stand , payed the deposit think youll find mccabe took over the payments
or have the tooth fairies been paying them

 

[blade too long]

As with all posts on this topic, no-one has enough factual information to prove their argument or disprove others. Mr McCabe has set up a corporate structure which is complex enough and private enough in part to prevent a diffinative argument without his full and open co-operation. There are a number of non football spin offs which could have generated profit for or added asset value to the MaCabe empire which would not have accrued without his involvement with United and which are rarely taken into account, largely for the same reasons.

The bottom line is that, as a football club, we no longer own our ground, we do not own our academy which many seek to give credit to Mr McCabe for setting up and we are playing at a lower level than was the case when Mr McCabe took over. Add to this the level of influence and control Mr McCabe has over all things Sheffield United and the possibility of any investment other than a buy out of the McCabe holdings is highly unlikely.

At that point Mr McCabe would seem to value his "investment" at a level far in excess of it's value in order to recoup his "losses". I think it's called a catch twenty two in polite circles.

Its also juggling with the assets so no particular part has to go into admin, it seems he wanted fresh investment 4 years ago as he knew his particular trade , construction was going to be hit hard, a fact that meant what was funding us would be perilously affected, he has in a catch 22 scenario try to secure the futures of both , yes for his own well being , but also for ours, his industry has been scraping along the bottom of a trough,which has meant we ,being reliant on him for funding, not the best scenario, have grounded too.
We all want to be in the championship as the minimum of our requirements, but have to be realistic , its not going to be achieved on our buying power , we aint got none

 

[alcoblade]

mcdonald ordered the building of the stand , payed the deposit think youll find mccabe took over the payments
or have the tooth fairies been paying them

Him taking over existing debt the club had is different to him investing his own cash.

I've always accepted that McCabe has lost money on United, and spent a lot.

My issue is that he's spent it in all the wrong areas like ventures in China and World Cup bids, and Byran Robson with all the baggage.

You crediting him developments that occurred before he came only shows that you're the one who can't be objective about McCabe. Your standpoint is paid bare all over this thread, and it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

You might still love him after, but you'd be better viewing him without those rose tinted specs.

UTB

 

[blade too long]

I disagree , his ventures into other areas are what businesses do , diversify , as it turned out he did it on the crest of a world recession , which to be fair only bankers knew was coming

I dont credit it him with anything but the facts , we now have a superior stadium , hes developed further from the John St , stand and we when times were good enjoyed a decade of being superior to wednesday in every department , most noticeably competing top half championship year in year out
I dont love him , in fact be glad when hes gone BUT thats with the proviso theres an adequate replacement, not just blindly blaming him for the fact no one else seems to want the hassle of running us

Yes he has a catalogue of bad choices , , but hes not alone in that, theres 100 s of other chairmen done far worse, criticism is piss easy , just wait for a run of 5 games without a win and heap the blame, fighting to climb away from mediocrity means pulling together , not pulling apart

 

[puppet]

I disagree , his ventures into other areas are what businesses do , diversify , as it turned out he did it on the crest of a world recession , which to be fair only bankers knew was coming

So a businessman such as McCabe had no idea a recession was coming - yet he sought to invest in expanding new markets such as E. Europe and China? We got Ho Hai Dong, he got a club and built a stadium. He built Ferenc stadium we got.... a few fatted calves sent out there on loan. He got the Australian company that owned EC Mariners we got.... David Carney. Can we not see a pattern emerging here where the so-called diversification actually proves to have not so much a failure but never really intended to benefit us in the first place!!!??

I dont credit it him with anything but the facts , we now have a superior stadium - that we no longer own , hes developed further from the John St - one corner filled in haphazrdly, leaving it incompatible with the adjoining Kop, a decent extention to the BLUT. Terrible Kop which any one in the building trade wouldve conceeded needing scrapping after it had been built during the knee-jerk reaction to Hillsborough... John St/BL corner... taken ownership of that himself... hotel... taken that for himself..... and we when times were good enjoyed a decade of being superior to wednesday in every department , most noticeably competing top half championship year in year out
I dont love him , in fact be glad when hes gone BUT thats with the proviso theres an adequate replacement, not just blindly blaming him for the fact no one else seems to want the hassle of running us because he has turned us into an indesirable business prospect by assett stripping us raw!!!

Yes he has a catalogue of bad choices , , but hes not alone in that, theres 100 s of other chairmen done far worse, criticism is piss easy , just wait for a run of 5 games without a win and heap the blame, fighting to climb away from mediocrity means pulling together , not pulling apart

 

[alcoblade]

I disagree , his ventures into other areas are what businesses do , diversify , as it turned out he did it on the crest of a world recession , which to be fair only bankers knew was coming

I dont credit it him with anything but the facts , we now have a superior stadium , hes developed further from the John St , stand and we when times were good enjoyed a decade of being superior to wednesday in every department , most noticeably competing top half championship year in year out
I dont love him , in fact be glad when hes gone BUT thats with the proviso theres an adequate replacement, not just blindly blaming him for the fact no one else seems to want the hassle of running us

Yes he has a catalogue of bad choices , , but hes not alone in that, theres 100 s of other chairmen done far worse, criticism is piss easy , just wait for a run of 5 games without a win and heap the blame, fighting to climb away from mediocrity means pulling together , not pulling apart

The property bubble wasn't really that hard to spot, and he was lapping it up.

His stadium development is limited to the away corner and roof, and the opposite corner. Dress it up however you like, that is a cold hard fact. To be honest, the away corner has had a disproportional positive effect of the ground. The kop corner is a mirror of McCabe's other business decisions - fucking awful.

I'm actually in agreement with lots of your other points. I don't share your ambivalence to his numerous errors though, especially when he has that debt sat on our books and charging up to 10%.

UTB

 

[blade too long]

because he has turned us into an indesirable business prospect by assett stripping us raw!!!

fundamentally disagree with that statement
good ground , good support , we are still as attractive a club as any to buy , just theres no takers for any clubs , even Everton cant attract money

we are far more desirable than 50 /60 other clubs, but the number of billionaires wanting hassle and the chance to downgrade to millionaire is a short list

 

[puppet]

but we don't own that nice ground...

 

[blade too long]

we do , as the man who runs us owns it
if it was still under sufc ownership on paper , hed still own it , as he owns sufc

semantics really

 

[judge]

No ones mentioned philliskirk leaving , how much did we get for him ?10 mill 15 ?that should give us enough cashier strengths the squads d allow us to bring quality in certain areas of the team
A loan move for lee trundle wouldn't go a miss , I do t know if he's any good or not but he's always on soccer am which means market exposure in china Wales and Liverpool

 

[sheffielder]

No ones mentioned philliskirk leaving , how much did we get for him ?10 mill 15 ?that should give us enough cashier strengths the squads d allow us to bring quality in certain areas of the team
A loan move for lee trundle wouldn't go a miss , I do t know if he's any good or not but he's always on soccer am which means market exposure in china Wales and Liverpool

What the hell are you talking about?