The lack of improvement of our younger players

[BalticBlade]

I think we have a major issue here.

We have a very good academy which is producing some very promising young players, but their development is seemingly becoming stunted once they enter the first team setup.

These are the seven younger players who have been in and around the first team over the past year (not counting Blaster because he's been injured and not played in nearly a year). Some came through the academy, some we brought in from elsehwere:

• Cooper
• Seriki
• Burrows
• Brooks
• Peck
• One
• Cannon
• Marsh

I'd argue not one of these players has shown any tangible improvement in the past year. All of them have yet to reach the commonly accepted threshold at which footballers reach their 'peak' (25-30, a bit later for keepers), but they all seem to have flatlined or even regressed.

So what's the issue? Is it the players or is there a problem with how we develop them once they get in and around the first team? I suspect it's the latter and until we resolve it we're going to have problems. These players should be kicking on but they're stagnating and this is a major factor in our current malaise.

 

[KMC-1889]

Other than Cooper Burrows and Peck none of them have had consistent football, and Peck & Burrows have probably played too much.

I’m not sure if we do generate good youth players or if they’re just in a league they shouldn’t be in. Until we get a Cat 1 academy it’s hard to say how good they actually are.

 

[BalticBlade]

Other than Cooper Burrows and Peck none of them have had consistent football, and Peck & Burrows have probably played too much.

I’m not sure if we do generate good youth players or if they’re just in a league they shouldn’t be in. Until we get a Cat 1 academy it’s hard to say how good they actually are.

But for those who haven't had much in the way of consistent football, why is that? Is it because they're not improving? What's going on on the training ground?

 

[Willglynning]

Other than Cooper Burrows and Peck none of them have had consistent football, and Peck & Burrows have probably played too much.

I’m not sure if we do generate good youth players or if they’re just in a league they shouldn’t be in. Until we get a Cat 1 academy it’s hard to say how good they actually are.

Cannon in particular looks woefully out of match practice, despite featuring in some capacity in every game.

Ideally he’d be off on loan in January but there’s no chance that Wilder would do that.

 

[raul]

The problem is that there are too many of them in the team and insufficient good experienced players to carry and guide them.

Better balance now Ings and Mee are in the building, but attracting players in between age groups costs munneh.

 

[Beans]

But for those who haven't had much in the way of consistent football, why is that? Is it because they're not improving? What's going on on the training ground?

Off the top of my head a few have had injuries that have disrupted the last year or so - Seriki, Marsh in particular IIRC.

I think mostly it's just that we were a side gunning for promotion and we just had other, senior players ahead of these in the pecking order. The only one for whom a spot was open was Peck, and that was due to injury really. We had 3 RBs on loan at various points so that limited Seriki's minutes. Brooks' total absence from the squad was certainly questionable but we did have Brereton-Diaz and Rak-Sakyi playing instead. Cannon was preferred to Oné (realistically he should be preferred to no-oné, but for those first few months it was justifiable to play your big-money striker).

It's a more relevant question this year now we're not a side gunning for promotion, but Seriki and Brooks have played games. Oné's disappearance is slightly ominous given how we handled Jebbison's development. But overall it may just be that some of these players are merely decent Championship players (or below) and that's their ceiling. No shame in that, not everyone's going to be Arblaster or Ndiaye.

The team around them has got worse so they in turn look worse. For example I don't really know if Peck has been significantly "worse" overall than last season, it's just more noticeable because no one is picking up the slack and he has slightly rubbisher / out-of-form players around him.

 

[CPB]

Sorry to say but I'm not sure I agree with the entirety of your post.

This time 12 or lets actually say 13 months or so ago Peck was new to first team football.
After the injury to Arblaster he established himself as a starter in the side that finished 3rd last season. He has become part of the u21 setup for England too. I'd say that is quite a big progression. It would be good for him to have a more settled partner this season. Or even have an Arblaster to compete with him too.

Burrows had played most of his football at L1 level before and had a good season last season.
Seriki looked awful in 2022 when thrown in under full back emergencies with Hecky. He has improved since then and had some good performances (Mainly in attacking full back roles) last season.

Cooper had a good season too, but he had previously had good seasons with Plymouth.

As for the rest you can certainly argue that they haven't progressed as such in the past year. Brooks and Cannon can't seem to break into the 1st team consistently. Cannon I think is better than what we have seen and needs a confidence boost too. (How much better I don't yet know!)
Brooks' performances are more up and down too. Marsh and One to be honest needed loans right now. Although I'd like to see more of them certainly One as he is a unit up top.

I would say the bigger problem is that this team this season hasn't performed well enough for most of the matches. And so no one at all is standing out in a positive manner too. And the results show this. (I will say we should have got something vs Southampton and Hull. And maybe even Millwall at home)

I remember similar being said of young players breaking through in the past. Tonge and even Jags were labelled as not progressing. As was Maguire.
The latter 2 ended up moving onto better things as the club did not match their trajectory.

 

[HOT CURRIE 10]

I think we have a major issue here.

We have a very good academy which is producing some very promising young players, but their development is seemingly becoming stunted once they enter the first team setup.

These are the seven younger players who have been in and around the first team over the past year (not counting Blaster because he's been injured and not played in nearly a year). Some came through the academy, some we brought in from elsehwere:

• Cooper
• Seriki
• Burrows
• Brooks
• Peck
• One
• Cannon
• Marsh

I'd argue not one of these players has shown any tangible improvement in the past year. All of them have yet to reach the commonly accepted threshold at which footballers reach their 'peak' (25-30, a bit later for keepers), but they all seem to have flatlined or even regressed.

So what's the issue? Is it the players or is there a problem with how we develop them once they get in and around the first team? I suspect it's the latter and until we resolve it we're going to have problems. These players should be kicking on but they're stagnating and this is a major factor in our current malaise.

Agree with you totally,been saying it for a while. The factor is also that more established players are going backwards also. Any coincidence.

 

[dexter101]

Probably worth also pointing out that in general, youngsters will be more effected by things like the play off final loss, on the basis that they don't have the experience of previous to bounce back using.

This summer has been a strange one for all of them on the basis that:

Lost play off final- negative end of an emotional journey (including GB passing)
manager sacked- the unknown of who is coming in
New Manager/new style- being asked to do things differently, prove their skill set etc
bad start to the season- see above but dealing with losses (something they didn't have to deal with in the same way last year)
Return of the Man (ager)- just getting used to a new set of demands and then a big reset button is hit

These aren't excuses, but for a player like Burrows who has seen the past few years as being a big upward journey of positivity, this is their first time dealing with these challenges on this scale. Its a real test of their character with less experience to fall back on.

 

[Carlton Blade]

We do great job of creating professional footballers. But most very good Championship players and PL players in general come from PL/Cat 1 academies. Just the way it is

 

[BalticBlade]

We do great job of creating professional footballers. But most very good Championship players and PL players in general come from PL/Cat 1 academies. Just the way it is

But don't you think they should carry on improving after they reach the age of 22/23?

 

[Carlton Blade]

But don't you think they should carry on improving after they reach the age of 22/23?

Why? Improvement isn't linear.

They may never improve, they may have hit a ceiling where they need 250 games experience to step on again, they may need to develop as more important parts of a team in a lower league. The list is endless

 

[BalticBlade]

Why? Improvement isn't linear.

They may never improve, they may have hit a ceiling where they need 250 games experience to step on again, they may need to develop as more important parts of a team in a lower league. The list is endless

But is it not odd that this is happening to a group of young players at the same club at the same time?

 

[Carlton Blade]

But is it not odd that this is happening to a group of young players at the same club at the same time?

Which clubs is it not happening with? The ones who improve that noticeably, thar quickly go to the PL

 

[GymClassHero]

Cannon in particular looks woefully out of match practice, despite featuring in some capacity in every game.

Ideally he’d be off on loan in January but there’s no chance that Wilder would do that.

We're stuck with him just like we were Brewster.

I still wouldn't be surprised to see McBurnie come back, maybe not this season but at some point. If Wilder hadn't been sacked he would probably be our top scorer right now.

 

[MadDad38]

We're stuck with him just like we were Brewster.

I still wouldn't be surprised to see McBurnie come back, maybe not this season but at some point. If Wilder hadn't been sacked he would probably be our top scorer right now.

Or injured, or effective as an auxiliary centre half at corners but isolated going forward as per Campbell. Or being used incorrectly as a target man. Etc.

 

[JD88]

I think we have a major issue here.

We have a very good academy which is producing some very promising young players, but their development is seemingly becoming stunted once they enter the first team setup.

These are the seven younger players who have been in and around the first team over the past year (not counting Blaster because he's been injured and not played in nearly a year). Some came through the academy, some we brought in from elsehwere:

• Cooper
• Seriki
• Burrows
• Brooks
• Peck
• One
• Cannon
• Marsh

I'd argue not one of these players has shown any tangible improvement in the past year. All of them have yet to reach the commonly accepted threshold at which footballers reach their 'peak' (25-30, a bit later for keepers), but they all seem to have flatlined or even regressed.

So what's the issue? Is it the players or is there a problem with how we develop them once they get in and around the first team? I suspect it's the latter and until we resolve it we're going to have problems. These players should be kicking on but they're stagnating and this is a major factor in our current malaise.

Not sure I agree with all of this. Burrows, Seriki and Cooper are better players than they where a year ago. The biggest issue at the moment is confidence for them 3.
I think the stick given to Peck this year has been over the top. Hung out to dry by Selles, with the ridiculous 1 in midfield formation, and has improved since CW returned, not quite to the level of last year as of yet, and broke into England u21's.
Brooks slightly different for me as he is not a wide player, when he got into first team he played in a midfield 3 and that's where he has looked best, he probably needs to decide what he actually is and work at it.
One and Marsh haven't played enough and really need a season in League 1. Why they wasn't allowed to leave in August is baffling.
Cannon just looks shot and needs a move away. Not sure what his best qualities are, never understood why we where after him when first linked, still haven't changed my mind.

 

[bonobo]

I think the set up, is not really conducive to the development of young players in the first team squad. Seriki has had a real impact, but it has commonly seen that he needs to improve defensively. Then because we are in such a tight race for automatic promotion, we dont feel we can give him the space to improve over a run of games, yet alone a season...and so much of defensive play is about gaining knowledge on the pitch. We slotted in 3 or 4 other rights backs trying to cover this gap. Same this season, exceptt we are in a relegation battle and always desperate to shore up for the next game.....when probably if we had an idea had bad we would be....Serikis defending would have been the least of our worries, had he been playing regularly. The Play Offs and the value of promotion is so immense financially, the same with relegation the opposite direction.....there is virtually no space you can let a player grow....unless they go out on loan. Both the promotion and relegation battle, not always, but generally these days favour squads of experienced players. The pressure on managers is also quite ridiculous, almost every manager is a run of results from having their job questioned by fans and boards, again leads to an emphasise on immediate fixes. So for many young players, they need to gain that experience via loans and enter the team regularly at a later stage.

 

[s20Blade]

We're not going to pull out a Illiman/D.Brooks/Maguire out of the academy every single year like we learnt in the league 1 days. I'd say Seriki, Brooks Peck and Blaster coming through over the past couple of years is very good going!

 

[Striker]

I think we have a major issue here.

We have a very good academy which is producing some very promising young players, but their development is seemingly becoming stunted once they enter the first team setup.

These are the seven younger players who have been in and around the first team over the past year (not counting Blaster because he's been injured and not played in nearly a year). Some came through the academy, some we brought in from elsehwere:

• Cooper
• Seriki
• Burrows
• Brooks
• Peck
• One
• Cannon
• Marsh

I'd argue not one of these players has shown any tangible improvement in the past year. All of them have yet to reach the commonly accepted threshold at which footballers reach their 'peak' (25-30, a bit later for keepers), but they all seem to have flatlined or even regressed.

So what's the issue? Is it the players or is there a problem with how we develop them once they get in and around the first team? I suspect it's the latter and until we resolve it we're going to have problems. These players should be kicking on but they're stagnating and this is a major factor in our current malaise.

It's called "finding your level"

Some younger players are big fish in small pools whilst playing U21 level football and aren't good enough to take the step up.

That's where the skill of the manager comes in knowing when to play or rest them. Sometimes it's a loan, but sometimes you have to make the decision that they're not going to make that step up. Don't forget that the manager sees them most days and knows the capabilities better than any of us.

No manager, ever gets this right 100% of the time.

 

[Badger Blade]

It's called "finding your level"

Some younger players are big fish in small pools whilst playing U21 level football and aren't good enough to take the step up.

That's where the skill of the manager comes in knowing when to play or rest them. Sometimes it's a loan, but sometimes you have to make the decision that they're not going to make that step up. Don't forget that the manager sees them most days and knows the capabilities better than any of us.

No manager, ever gets this right 100% of the time.

To me, its all about how some of them stand up mentally and physically to men's football.

David Brooks had the look and build of a child but compensated with outrageous skill and confidence. Conversely, Harry Maguire was a man-child who was physically up to the job at 17/18 but equally wasn't just a lower league head it, kick it donkey - he had some skill with the ball at his feet. Kyle Walker's outstanding pace and wasn't a shrinking violet physically either.

Peck has enormous levels of self belief if what Wilder says about him is true.

For most young players, its a case of sink or swim. There's nowhere to hide and the deer in the headlights are the ones that don't make it.

Having some kind of outstanding attribute is what sets the good youngsters apart from the ones who sink down the leagues, whatever that attribute might be.

 

[Rodley]

Most looked decent last year, but shite under the calamitous Sellesball. Their confidence looks shot like any young footballer in these circumstances. Not sure that’s an issue of player development strategy, more the shitshow of the start of the season.

The key issue I’ve seen is Selles didn’t send any peripheral players out on loan to gain experience and signed speculative young dross to take their places in the first team squads. Also, bizarrely, squad players on loan rather than first team ready & impactful loanees. So they will stall until January until I imagine CW will loan them out.

 

[Harry's Game]

Give Marsh a chance off the bench in place of Cannon.. it might not work but it’s worth a shot.

 

[N20 Blade]

Give Marsh a chance off the bench in place of Cannon.. it might not work but it’s worth a shot.

He can do no worse. Who could?

 

[LBA_Blade]

In a way with academy players although they share the ethos of the club and often are home grown talent. When you are bringing a player through at Championship level (even harder at Premier League) you are taking risks, it's similar to buying players, although when buying a 25-30 year old that is a specialist in say RWB it is probably less of a risk than bringing through a 19 year old RWB. Seriki is probably more of a RB and playing in the championship you need the cover at CB when the backs get forwards, which was lacking so I guess in that context he looks worse than he probably is due to the players he has alongside him. When you look at our "traditional academy players" they weren't exactly in complex positions, playing in a straight 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 with Jags, Brown, Maguire, Tonge, Monty, Sharp, Lowton, and even up to "the Kyles" they weren't asked to play out of position and also had experienced heads alongside them. The number of leaders and experience in the squad especially when Jags/Tonge/Brown/Monty were breaking through was crazy.

 

[Pintor75]

Simply down to needing better coaching imo, they come into the first team set up and there is no on going system to move into, the under 21s should be playing the same system as the first team so they can come in when needed and slot into position, but Wilder and co haven't had a recognised system since the over lapping centre back idea got found out, even the first team look confused as to what they are doing or system they should be playing, that's down to the coaches. OK Arblaster being injured doesn't help, but he's one lad out of a bunch of talented players who should be better than they are atm, Selles was a wasted appointment when we should have gone for a more established coach, but that's history now, let's hope things improve if only for the short term

 

[LurkerBlade]

Mainoo, Osula, Foden, Palmer (lots of Chelsea's youngsters) etc etc

Sometimes they come flying out and keep going, sometimes they plateau, some go up and down. We shouldn't let the start of this season and the lack of confidence in the squad dictate how we feel our youngsters are developing.