The disallowed 'goal'

[Houston_Blade]

@Potter Log: Fair enough. It is a luxury I never have. VAR has never given me anything. Even if teams I hate suffer, I just think „why not fiddle them in the tried and trusted old-style way?“

We were in the Prem in its first season. The Lundstram goal at Spurs introduced and pretty much finished the concept for me.

VAR killed that goal after what felt like 10 minutes. It also killed Baldock‘s equalizer ten minutes later. Neither Baldock nor our fans celebrated much. He was visibly angry still about the earlier call and despite scoring (obviously Angry George was angry rather charmingly a lot…).

It kills so much joy in a constant stream of shite. I call it the belated revenge of the unsporty kids who hated football in school but who still somehow held a grudge against all the sexy boys who played the beautiful game.

After thirty years of pent up hate, they found a way in where their kind have the last laugh. Let’s wreck their fun with rulers, lines, picture frame repeat rates and word salad rules that can justify free-styling interpretation but we call it clear and obvious or factual black and white. They will take years to twig that everything in life is black and white if black is interchangeably white. And they weren’t too bright, anyway, those togger lads…

Since Spurs, I have never celebrated a Prem goal without a hint of fear. Even thirty yarders aren’t safe. Hell, even an Olimpico might be ruled off for some remote block on the penalty spot…

On Saturday I celebrate the 2-0 with my Championship mindset. I am really disappointed with myself. Really disappointed.

99% of this post is happily tongue in cheek. 100% of my non-football life is happily tongue in cheek.

But my disappointment with myself for (1) not mentally preparing for VAR and (2) not treating the goal with the horrible Prem mindset is genuine and no joke. I care too much, and should have prepared better. I invited excess hurt that as a modern fan you cannot avoid if you allow yourself your childlike Championship mindset.

Celebrating like that now feels like leaving my I-phone in a Venetian pizzeria when going to the loo. Better take no chances. I know I shouldn’t victim blame myself, but I could have known better. Maybe following United is the proverbial provocative skirt that is a few inches too short?

And to ever feel like that is WRONG. Plain wrong. In all other walks of life this feeling is weeded out as gaslighting or grooming or manipulation. But we accept VAR which is the footballing equivalent of gaslighting (or worse).

Before Saturday, I thought my chill ways would allow me to rationalize VAR the English way with humour if ever United are subjected to it again. Now I know better. I hate it as a system now. Forever. It’s once too often.

And I know for a fact that I am correct. It won’t stop. It will keep destroying magic moments. Ours and those of others. Including one-off life-changing ones.

And it will never ever create a single moment where the world will say “magic VAR. Beautiful!! How did football ever thrive before you.”

If you gave me a deal now: two successive relegations, five years League 2 and back in the Prem by 2035 - provided that there is no VAR outside of goal lines by then - I’d sign it. For myself, my team, the game I love.

I’d take that hit knowing that I take one for humanity. Even if humanity includes Liverpool FC, Leeds, Piggy Bastards and a great number of other shit clubs who the deal gives 10 undeserved comparatively more successful years to.

The time when it adjudged Declan Rice to have handballed in the build up to West Ham’s equaliser was one of my favourite moments that season. It was hilarious.

 

[ChrisBlade]

That WAS funny indeed, but did not tip the scales. It’s the beautiful game, not the “appeal to the lowest instincts shit for giggles” game.

 

[VictoryBlade]

He wasn't standing virtually on the keeper's toes blocking his view?

View attachment 212299

And the S'land player to the right was playing him on anyway?

 

[PotterLog]

And the S'land player to the right was playing him on anyway?

Only if you take Moore's attempt at a stooping "header" as the last touch, which they didn't

 

[Selly]

Interesting point about the captain’s right to protest once a game. I reckon Sunderland wouldn’t have used it in this case, not one of their players protested, including the unsighted keeper.

I think if the appeal was "please look at that goal for anything" then they absolutely would have

If they had to be specific that "no 21 was offside" I agree they may not have

Which is why if we ever get to captains appeal territory, they have to specify exactly what they want checking

 

[ChrisBlade]

I think if the appeal was "please look at that goal for anything" then they absolutely would have

If they had to be specific that "no 21 was offside" I agree they may not have

Which is why if we ever get to captains appeal territory, they have to specify exactly what they want checking

Yes. They have to specify. It is about rectifying “a clear and obvious” error. Singular. Entering Potter Log territory of word by word legalese now.

The appeal cannot be “mate, conceding a second so soon in the game is a bit sucky, but the ball was probably in play for three minutes before they scored. Can you fine-tooth comb it back to the last throw in for some arguable infringement that puts game back in balance for us and t’neutral?”

And yet currently PGMOL do exactly the above, pretending every time that whatever tiny shit they can find moved the needle. Or not, depending on the day and the opinion. And the spineless fuck on the pitch then performatively nods and theatrically agrees with the instructions from the off.

 

[haich1889]

Hypothetical idea: Inter score that goal tonight in the Champions League Final.

Question 1: Will it be chalked off?

Question 2: How long would we expect the review to last?

My personal guesses are no. Game kicks off within 80 seconds of the ball having hit the net.

Hypothetical alternative: Lino raises flag on the pitch.

Then it would be goal not given upon review either, match kicks off within 45 seconds of ball hitting the net as there is no celebration.

And that is HOW clear and obvious it was. Namely, not clear and obvious at all, but a quicksand rule and decision that you can give or not give as you please.

One week, the Stockley Park dice says 2, 4 and 6 means goal. Next week, 1, 2 and 3 are goal.

And we are the ones who roll a 2 both weeks.

Nailed it. Top man

 

[haich1889]

Again, that's irrelevant. He was offside and then became involved in active play by getting in the goalie's line of vision

Which ties it up with a lovely bow tound it until i look at the txt from my son in law who has no dog in the fight who after watching all the reviews thought it wasn't offside.

... let's start all over again.

There has & never will be any decision FURTHER AWAY from 'clear & Obvious'. Lundstrol's Big Toe was clear cut in comparison.

 

[PotterLog]

Which ties it up with a lovely bow tound it until i look at the txt from my son in law who has no dog in the fight who after watching all the reviews thought it wasn't offside.

... let's start all over again.

There has & never will be any decision FURTHER AWAY from 'clear & Obvious'. Lundstrol's Big Toe was clear cut in comparison.

Offside decisions are not subject to the "clear and obvious" standard for VAR.

 

[ChrisBlade]

Offside decisions are not subject to the "clear and obvious" standard for VAR.

Okay? Meaning we are back to one ref (Keith Hackett) opines goal should stand, the other said no. Even without clear and obvious, one person thinks Vini is later active, another person thinks he isn’t.

I refer you to my Dortmund vs St. Pauli video. Long ranger with only the offside guy ever crossing line of sight. Goal stands despite it all. In our jungle of seven bodies or so, the eighth one is critically active? Why? Because guy on duty today says so. Only reason.

Different guy on duty next week? Or same guy with a different hunch? Opposite outcome.

I have to reiterate: if I design rules that allow a spectrum from 0.4 to 0.6 to be deemed either 1 or 0, I will never have either justice or consistency or perfection. It isn’t factual anymore.

I have inbuilt variations. This call is about as contentious and volatile to opinion as a penalty or a dive. Yet we still pretend that somehow offside is purely factual and a black or white binary like goal line calls.

The whole thing is simple: Injustice delivered within seconds as opinions can be wrong (old world) or injustice after long reviews by weekly committee which can still be wrong. VAR in England does not pacify grey area judgment call interpretations.

I don’t see why you do not concede that point?

This decision may be acceptable to you. To some others. A certain majority even. But that is it. No better than that. It will never be either right or wrong.

Letting it stand would have been acceptable to a similar majority I am sure. Probably more people I suspect because of the beauty of the strike and our wish to see magic goals. I almost guarantee if that thing ends 3-0, very few Sunderland fans go home thinking we were robbed or VAR kills our game. If they even spot it ever, they’ll say wish VAR had saved us there but can understand why it didn’t.

Trash system not suitable in football.

Does any neutral TV watcher think, bent bastards? How can they not chalk that off? Sunderland lad saw the ball through a maze, never will save it either way, but got lucky Vini sauntered into view as body 7 and a half?

No.

 

[PotterLog]

Okay? Meaning we are back to one ref (Keith Hackett) opines goal should stand, the other said no. Even without clear and obvious, one person thinks Vini is later active, another person thinks he isn’t.

I refer you to my Dortmund vs St. Pauli video. Long ranger with only the offside guy ever crossing line of sight. Goal stands despite it all. In our jungle of seven bodies or so, the eighth one is critically active? Why? Because guy on duty today says so. Only reason.

Different guy on duty next week? Or same guy with a different hunch? Opposite outcome.

I have to reiterate: if I design rules that allow a spectrum from 0.4 to 0.6 to be deemed either 1 or 0, I will never have either justice or consistency or perfection. It isn’t factual anymore.

I have inbuilt variations. This call is about as contentious and volatile to opinion as a penalty or a dive. Yet we still pretend that somehow offside is purely factual and a black or white binary like goal line calls.

The whole thing is simple: Injustice delivered within seconds as opinions can be wrong (old world) or injustice after long reviews by weekly committee which can still be wrong. VAR in England does not pacify grey area judgment call interpretations.

I don’t see why you do not concede that point?

This decision may be acceptable to you. To some others. A certain majority even. But that is it. No better than that. It will never be either right or wrong.

Letting it stand would have been acceptable to a similar majority I am sure. Probably more people I suspect because of the beauty of the strike and our wish to see magic goals. I almost guarantee if that thing ends 3-0, very few Sunderland fans go home thinking we were robbed or VAR kills our game. If they even spot it ever, they’ll say wish VAR had saved us there but can understand why it didn’t.

Trash system not suitable in football.

Does any neutral TV watcher think, bent bastards? How can they not chalk that off? Sunderland lad saw the ball through a maze, never will save it either way, but got lucky Vini sauntered into view as body 7 and a half?

No.

The general debate around the use of VAR is one thing - I have mixed feelings about it. I hate, for example, goals getting chalked off for a technically correct offside decision when it involves a toenail length on the wing three passes before the actual goal is scored. It's just not what the offside rule was designed for. I'm even happy to concede the same could apply to your goal in the final, it was marginal, and very unlikely the keeper would've saved it anyway. Certainly nothing anyone would have complained about pre-VAR.

I'm simply talking about the law as it stands, and the decision is just a no-brainer - everything was by the book. In the case of offsides the VAR can refer to the on-pitch ref when there's a decision about becoming involved in active play. Souza was plainly offside from the shot, and then blatantly gets in the goalkeeper's line of vision by passing about a foot in front of his face as the ball is coming in. I really don't think it's the grey area you wish to depict it as and I'm not remotely surprised the ref took so little time to make his decision. In real time anyone watching it unfold on telly knew it was coming.

The one caveat is the potential touch off Moore. I agree that would be a complicating factor but.. well, to be brutally honest, he didn't touch it.

 

[Valleyblade]

Utterly pointless var.

It solves nothing at all.

Decisions in football are subjective.

Pissing around referring to a load more referees just kills the one thing that makes (made) football the greatest game on earth, its free flowing, intuitive amd emotional nature.

In no way at all does var put an end to debate after the match as to whether a decision is right.

Pointless

 

[VictoryBlade]

I'm still furious about the decision tbh. I wasn't bothered about going into the Prem just wanted us to win at Wembley as we were doing before Kavanagh's intervention!

 

[haich1889]

The one with the arrow is Souza isn't it? Campbell is to the right

which arrow??? there are 3 arrows in some pics & 1 in others ?? Douza is to nthe left in all photos.

 

[haich1889]

Utterly pointless var.

It solves nothing at all.

Decisions in football are subjective.

Pissing around referring to a load more referees just kills the one thing that makes (made) football the greatest game on earth, its free flowing, intuitive amd emotional nature.

In no way at all does var put an end to debate after the match as to whether a decision is right.

Pointless

They out did themselves this time though. They didn't even stop players or fans celebrating to the full. Team were walking back for kick off and scoreboard had 2 - 0 for all to see. Even their players were shaping up for kick off. What a fuc#in Utter boll0cks everyone involved made of it & just made VAR look as bad as it has ever looked. I wonder if players hadn't celebrated and got in position straight away whethr the kick off would have gone ahead before the VAR tw@ts had got their thumbs out of their arse

 

[Toronto Blade]

They out did themselves this time though. They didn't even stop players or fans celebrating to the full. Team were walking back for kick off and scoreboard had 2 - 0 for all to see. Even their players were shaping up for kick off. What a fuc#in Utter boll0cks everyone involved made of it & just made VAR look as bad as it has ever looked. I wonder if players hadn't celebrated and got in position straight away whethr the kick off would have gone ahead before the VAR tw@ts had got their thumbs out of their arse

 

[Toronto Blade]

We shouldn't expect VAR to take our side we are not one of their darlings. The league does love all the fines that we have sent them this season we are easy pickings for them.

 

[PotterLog]

which arrow??? there are 3 arrows in some pics & 1 in others ?? Douza is to nthe left in all photos.

I was on about the one I posted. When the shot is hit Souza is to the left of the keeper as you look from behind the goal. Then moves across to his right in front of the keeper (where my screenshot shows him)

 

[haich1889]

I was on about the one I posted. When the shot is hit Souza is to the left of the keeper as you look from behind the goal. Then moves across to his right in front of the keeper (where my screenshot shows him)

I know what you're saying but in all fairness the game is turning into a proper shit show if players have to keep checking whether the poor awd keeper can see every shot & check if their offside. They don't have too many braincells to start with some of'em. They'll be dithering wrecks at the end of a game.
It really does highlight what a calamitous f#ck up the morons in charge managed to create & the pain & heartache that comes with it. Not that the dickheads will have stopped for one minute to consider anyone might be traumatised by their cock-up.

 

[Selly]

It really does highlight what a calamitous f#ck up the morons in charge managed to create & the pain & heartache that comes with it.

This. And I'm not even taking about VAR. Just the offside law.

Offside always has been the most complex rule in football.

The authorities have taken it, and made it so complex that even we, with all our experience watching football, struggle to know what offside is.

30 years ago that goal wasn't a goal because Vivi was offside. End of.

 

[ChrisBlade]

I'm simply talking about the law as it stands, and the decision is just a no-brainer - everything was by the book. In the case of offsides the VAR can refer to the on-pitch ref when there's a decision about becoming involved in active play. Souza was plainly offside from the shot, and then blatantly gets in the goalkeeper's line of vision by passing about a foot in front of his face as the ball is coming in. I really don't think it's the grey area you wish to depict it as and I'm not remotely surprised the ref took so little time to make his decision. In real time anyone watching it unfold on telly knew it was coming.

Again, I don’t think we can have one discussion without the other. This is EXACTLY the problem.

Of course, the majority of these meddly fiddle shit rule calls will be technically correct or can be seen to be coming on TV. That is built into the rules. They make them in such a way as to be able to introduce leeway. As I say, some refs give it others don’t. It is in the papers and the disagreements are well-covered. Everything you say applies equally to the St. Pauli goal in my video that was given.

My grievance is NOT that I find the decision in isolation wrong or scandalous. Most VAR calls will be like that. Mostly or fully correct, most of them. Arguably correct and scope for debate others. Scandalously odd only a few.

Ours is not a scandalous one. I agree with you.

But by justifying each of them in isolation we validate a system that destroys the overall vibe and nature of football. Week by week a little more. You become an enabler of something even YOU aren’t fully on board with.

If there is an abuse culture in your family that one covers up, you aren’t an abuser yourself. But you allow the situation to persist by playing to the rule set. Arguing that decisions like this offside in isolation are ok and the fall out for the game itself and how people are allowed to experience it is a separate issue is like saying „but Harry is your dad’s brother“ one week, then „maybe he didn’t mean it like that?“ the next one.

As a Stoke lad we are not your family. I get that. So we are the girl with the black eye you walk by who looks shit scared and you think „ I wonder how she got that?“ when deep down you know exactly how.

As Championships fans we still have an option. It hasn’t killed our game yet. Not YET. But if we allow this monstrosity to shit on us and others unchecked, your children will never experience football the way it was meant to be.

One more time: has VAR improved anything in our game? Do you believe it will EVER work smoothly? Would you want it in the Championship?

 

[ChrisBlade]

And for full disclosure:

If I am the ref at Dortmund vs Pauli or our goal is scored in a final between Gillingham and Southend (two teams I don’t care for), I give the goal and tell VAR to do one.

Does he cross the viewline, yes. Was he initially offside, yes.

But is either of those facts determinative for the outcome? No. Not active in the sense he makes a difference to what occurs.

If that is then viewed as bending the rules and I have a free weekend, so be it. I have served football and introduced common sense to a pinball-worded rule and saved a great goal.

 

[PotterLog]

One more time: has VAR improved anything in our game? Do you believe it will EVER work smoothly? Would you want it in the Championship?

Assuming this wasn’t rhetorical, overall I’m just about in favour of VAR because it reduces the number of major game-changing injustices. There are other things I don’t like about it but hopefully it will continue to improve.

Either way it’s a moot point, now we have the tech it’s here to stay and we’ll get it in the Champo sooner or later

 

[Sheffsteel]

It’s down to interpretation.

Was Vini Souza distracting the keeper. Yes, so technically most people agree it should be disallowed.

However did Vini Souza have any effect regards the goal being scored. I’d say no because the shot was going in anyway.

My view is that a computer robotic ref would give offside

However a ref using judgement and common sense would allow it.

Not seen the exact wording regards the rule.

 

[Dellas Cowboys]

Noticed no VAR in the National League play off final this past weekend at Wembley. Nothing like consistency eh.

 

[Selly]

One more time: has VAR improved anything in our game? Do you believe it will EVER work smoothly? Would you want it in the Championship?

The only element where I see it of genuine benefit is in reviewing the (at least for other teams) rare fracas where it simply isn`t possible for one ref (and 2 assistants who are probably starting at least 30-50 yards away) to see everything that is going on.

If someone throws a punch, or a headbutt and the ref doesn`t see it - VAR is a reasonable alternative.

For penalties, goals etc - no - its a stain on the sport.

For the purpose of the above VAR does not include GLT.

 

[programmechap]

The only element where I see it of genuine benefit is in reviewing the (at least for other teams) rare fracas where it simply isn`t possible for one ref (and 2 assistants who are probably starting at least 30-50 yards away) to see everything that is going on.

If someone throws a punch, or a headbutt and the ref doesn`t see it - VAR is a reasonable alternative.

For penalties, goals etc - no - its a stain on the sport.

For the purpose of the above VAR does not include GLT.

But you could deal with that post game via lengthy bans.

 

[Working Class Hero]

It’s down to interpretation.

Was Vini Souza distracting the keeper. Yes, so technically most people agree it should be disallowed.

However did Vini Souza have any effect regards the goal being scored. I’d say no because the shot was going in anyway.

My view is that a computer robotic ref would give offside

However a ref using judgement and common sense would allow it.

Not seen the exact wording regards the rule.

So if Burrows had robbed the keeper on the halfway line, but Vini Souza was blocking the keeper's view of the ball while Burrows bangs it into an open net, technically it should be disallowed?

That's a genuine question by the way, as I don't know the answer. Surely though, the common sense decision is the correct decision.

 

[ForgeBlade]

Brilliant post mate. I never celebrated a goal like that before. I went crazy with my 2 daughters (never been to a match together before), turned to my mates lad who had tears in his eyes and had time to look 6 seats along where my nephew was showing massive relief because it was 2 -0. A man 5 rows down was in the aisle on his knees looking up & shouting 'thank you.'
I don't think anybody would have been too bothered if it was dis-allowed straight away BUT 3/4 mins was cruel beyond anything I have ever witnessed. There was no appeal from Sunderland players, the scoreboard changed, goal announced over the PA system, players finished celebrating & Sunderland were readying themselves to kick off.
My son-in-law a Man U fan texted saying he didn't think it was offside, my dad also watching on tv said it wasn't offside. How, as you say, was this 'CLEAR & OBVIOUS'???
I believe, however, was to allow a narcissistic referee the opportunity to make history. He took 15 seconds, looking at a portable sized screen to see what the experts couldn't in 2 -3 minutes & boy did he love making that announcement!??? There way he strode on the pitch & waited for his audience to quite down, pure theatre!!!

Agree with all of this. If the lino had flagged straight away, we'd have had a moment of "YEAA...oh fuck, ah well, keep going." It's the wait that is torment. Both teams back ready to kick off again, scoreboard saying 2-0, crack on.

It continues to fuck me off (not just about that decision) that one of the best things about football, goal celebrations, are being put on hold and then rendered null and void because the authorities are just desperately searching, every time a goal is scored, to find a way to rule it out to justify the use of this bullshit technology.

As to Chris Kavanagh...the smug, overblown prick was absolutely loving it. The way he marched onto the pitch and then stood there, loving the eyes of the world on him, before making his pathetic little announcement. Imagine being such a pathetic person that you take such joy in crushing the hopes of 30,000+ people. I hope every shit he takes for the rest of his life is a hedgehog, and I hope that on his way for every one of those shits, he treads on a lego brick in bare feet. The utter and total twat.

 

[jt64]

I do love how people are using the "clear and obvious" verbiage, intended to apply to subjective decisions such as fouls, and applying it to objective facts, such as whether a player is in an offside position or not. I also love how some people also think that this is cricket, and that a lack of an appeal equates to an instant not out decision