The Blueprint for Success: Recruitment

[Chali 2na]

It's a slow day for me today and after reading through the In praise of Mccabe thread, I got to thinking: is their a definitive way to get out of League 1 and be successful in general? I think there is, and it's not a revelation; it's a drum that many of us have been banging for quite some time:

Sign the best young players, with potential to grow with you, from the teams around you and the division below.

Below is a list of players who fit (or have fitted) that criteria since we've been in league 1 who have gone on to be relatively successful:
Paul Caddis, Matt Ritchie, Alan Judge, Ben Pringle, Sam Winnall, Scott Hogan, Aden Flint, Luke Freeman, Ryan Woods, Andre Gray, John Egan, Romaine Sawyers & Kemar Roofe

Had we as a club dared to pay relatively modest transfer fees while in league 1, most of the above could have been in our reach at some point. The money invested in such players could have been multiplied by transfer fees recieved when sold or rewarded with success. Brentford, Barnsley and Bristol City amongst others have all followed this 'blueprint' while in league 1 and have reaped the rewards.

Granted, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm not wishing to use this as a stick to bash to the club over the head with, the signings of Fleck, O'Connell and Carruthers all enthuse me that we are heading in the right direction. I just hope that we move forward by signing young, exciting players who can develop. Should we go up this year, it would be the only way to be competitive in the Championship without spending eye-watering amount of money.

 

[Ecco1889]

Nail-hit-on-head

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

If you look at Southampton (and Swansea - although this season is an exception) you have the ideal blueprint. If you recruit well then and have a continuous recruitment policy which you stick to religiously - then the rewards are there.

Sadly too many clubs chase the glory and spunk money to mercenaries and short term signings.

Hopefully we now have a manager who can implement a policy which lays the groundwork for a longer term strategy.

 

[Ricky]

Barnsley, Peterborough and Brentford are good clubs to look at for a start. They all know what they're doing.

If your scouting and management is competent then you should be comfortable backing their judgement and spending money without worrying about it disappearing down a black hole.

If you sign 3 or 4 players of a similar age with potential, and just one of them does well you can recoup the money spent on all of them. If you can get half of them right, as a well managed club should do, then you'll almost certainly be profitable.

It's a numbers game, you accept that some won't work out but know that the ones that do will more than make up for it.

If you were to use United as an example, then you can take Jack O'Connell, signed for what was probably between 200-400k, and say that he'd cost over £1m now for anybody to buy. This means that if we signed another player for similar money who we had to take a loss on, it wouldn't be a problem - we've still come out of it better off.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

What if the players mentioned, who we could have afforded......

Didn't want to come to Bramall Lane?

 

[Worksop II]

Should we go up this year, it would be the only way to be competitive in the Championship without spending eye-watering amount of money.

I thought the Game Changing Investment was gonna kick in when Promotion was finally won

 

[Sheffsteel]

Also isn't recruitment all about gambling
It's not an exact science, you win some and you lose some.

Take Barnsley, sold their best striker Sam Winnall
which is terrible for them in the short term

But if that sale means they bring in Omar Boggle.
In the long term he could end up being far better than Sam Winnall.

Clubs with money pay over the odds for the tried and tested
Wherea clubs with out money are prepared to take the risk on lower division talent.

The great news for us is that Wilder is very knowledgable about the talented lower division players.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Good common sense post.

Problem is, that has been spouted as the plan since Weir. We were just particularly bad at executing it and panicking when we had a knock back.
Looking at some of Cloughs signings....young players like Adams, Scougall, McNuts....fit that genre. He looked to kids of our own like Reed.
What is apparent is that if one piece of the jigsaw isn't right, the whole picture is distorted. With Weir he was looking at the right types, Fleck was one I recall. But out of his depth and I reckon will never venture to manager again.
With Clough, he had lots of dross like Collins and co using budget, and tried to mix recruitment with experience and youth...while also being too cautious in his approach and tactics. Ended up with fall outs in the squad and got himself sacked.
Adkins....didn't have a fucking clue in all honesty. Recruitment was shocking, as well as management.

But now we have a head of recruitment who is on the ball and proactive, working in tandem with a manager having the right ideas on how to play and the players needed, and backed by a board who have seen enough to trust them and release the funds to get it done.
Also helps that players like Collins and Baxter...paid a lot for not a lot, are finally gone to allow a clean slate.
It's all good. At last.

 

[Chali 2na]

Barnsley, Peterborough and Brentford are good clubs to look at for a start. They all know what they're doing.

If your scouting and management is competent then you should be comfortable backing their judgement and spending money without worrying about it disappearing down a black hole.

If you sign 3 or 4 players of a similar age with potential, and just one of them does well you can recoup the money spent on all of them. If you can get half of them right, as a well managed club should do, then you'll almost certainly be profitable.

It's a numbers game, you accept that some won't work out but know that the ones that do will more than make up for it.

If you were to use United as an example, then you can take Jack O'Connell, signed for what was probably between 200-400k, and say that he'd cost over £1m now for anybody to buy. This means that if we signed another player for similar money who we had to take a loss on, it wouldn't be a problem - we've still come out of it better off.

Completely agree Ricky, I think Peterborough are a good manager away from following the same trajectory as Barnsley and Brentford: puching above their weight while still being financially responsible.

I know you watch a lot of football and often seem to have good player suggestions, any particular young players that stand out for you at the minute? (I'm always interested in that kind of thing)

What if the players mentioned, who we could have afforded......

Didn't want to come to Bramall Lane?

Not saying they all did, but I'd imagine many would.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I thought the Game Changing Investment was gonna kick in when Promotion was finally won

The "game changing investent" could be we spend 15 million instead of 2 million
But next season spending an extra 15 million on transfers and salaries combined still won't be enough.

I think this "game changing" investment will only mean we aren't in the bottom bracket financially
So we will have the finances to easily stay up, but even top half might be difficult.

 

[Chali 2na]

I thought the Game Changing Investment was gonna kick in when Promotion was finally won

The goal posts have been moved since the infamous 'game-changing investment' quote. It is now not uncommon for Championship teams to spend upwards of £10m on a player. Look at Derby, they have spent 3 years throwing money at their side to no avail. Newcastle have supposedly spent £30m this season.

Unless HRH is sitting on a lot more dough than we first thought (and he's willing to gamble that money with us.) We will have to find another way to be competitive.

Good common sense post.

Problem is, that has been spouted as the plan since Weir. We were just particularly bad at executing it and panicking when we had a knock back.
Looking at some of Cloughs signings....young players like Adams, Scougall, McNuts....fit that genre. He looked to kids of our own like Reed.
What is apparent is that if one piece of the jigsaw isn't right, the whole picture is distorted. With Weir he was looking at the right types, Fleck was one I recall. But out of his depth and I reckon will never venture to manager again.
With Clough, he had lots of dross like Collins and co using budget, and tried to mix recruitment with experience and youth...while also being too cautious in his approach and tactics. Ended up with fall outs in the squad and got himself sacked.
Adkins....didn't have a fucking clue in all honesty. Recruitment was shocking, as well as management.

But now we have a head of recruitment who is on the ball and proactive, working in tandem with a manager having the right ideas on how to play and the players needed, and backed by a board who have seen enough to trust them and release the funds to get it done.
Also helps that players like Collins and Baxter...paid a lot for not a lot, are finally gone to allow a clean slate.
It's all good. At last.

Scougall and McNulty came from Scotland, which in my personal opinion is a different kettle of fish. I think Scottish players have tend to have a harder time adapting to the English game therefore it's slighly more of a gamble (which is reflected in their market values).

I'd argue that Adams was a success, we bought him relatively cheaply and sold him for a good profit. To be a success on the pitch, I feel we should have been signing more players of that mould.

I agree that we now seem to have the right staff in place to make it happen.

 

[South Bucks]

A good blueprint and I wonder if a key part is sometimes the timing of improvements and gambles. For example, some think we can wait until the summer and then strengthen if we go up. Me thinks any club that does this is likely to pay through the nose for players and many of the ones out of contract are out of contract cos they are not much good. Maybe snapping up some good prospects with 6 months left on their contracts and where the selling club knows they'll get nowt in the summer might give better value sometimes. All a bit of a gamble though.

 

[Ricky]

Completely agree Ricky, I think Peterborough are a good manager away from following the same trajectory as Barnsley and Brentford: puching above their weight while still being financially responsible.

I know you watch a lot of football and often seem to have good player suggestions, any particular young players that stand out for you at the minute? (I'm always interested in that kind of thing)

The ones that stand out most tend to be beyond our reach, especially if they're under 21. At the moment we're probably better off looking at players between 21-25 who can still develop - there's a bigger market for these types and a bigger percentage who will fall within our budget. O'Connell, EEL and Lavery are good examples. Most of these types who I know of have probably already been mentioned on here at some stage.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

but I'd imagine many would

Why?

Two answers in that question.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Barnsley, Peterborough and Brentford are good clubs to look at for a start. They all know what they're doing.

I'll disagree.

Do you think all the clubs mentioned are happy in their present situation?

 

[Ricky]

I'll disagree.

Do you think all the clubs mentioned are happy in their present situation?

That's not entirely relevant to their recruitment strategies is it?

I'd say only Peterborough will be unsatisfied, they should be doing better than they are. But they're still hardly punching below their weight as a club.

 

[super_pig]

It's a slow day for me today and after reading through the In praise of Mccabe thread, I got to thinking: is their a definitive way to get out of League 1 and be successful in general? I think there is, and it's not a revelation; it's a drum that many of us have been banging for quite some time:

Sign the best young players, with potential to grow with you, from the teams around you and the division below.

Below is a list of players who fit (or have fitted) that criteria since we've been in league 1 who have gone on to be relatively successful:
Paul Caddis, Matt Ritchie, Alan Judge, Ben Pringle, Sam Winnall, Scott Hogan, Aden Flint, Luke Freeman, Ryan Woods, Andre Gray, John Egan, Romaine Sawyers & Kemar Roofe

Had we as a club dared to pay relatively modest transfer fees while in league 1, most of the above could have been in our reach at some point. The money invested in such players could have been multiplied by transfer fees recieved when sold or rewarded with success. Brentford, Barnsley and Bristol City amongst others have all followed this 'blueprint' while in league 1 and have reaped the rewards.

Granted, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm not wishing to use this as a stick to bash to the club over the head with, the signings of Fleck, O'Connell and Carruthers all enthuse me that we are heading in the right direction. I just hope that we move forward by signing young, exciting players who can develop. Should we go up this year, it would be the only way to be competitive in the Championship without spending eye-watering amount of money.

when this came up a few years ago, someone asked ollesandro 'who should we sign then?'. he then proceeded to provide a list of players like callum wilson and wes hoolihan most of whom became top level players..if olle could do it then what have we been messing about at?

 

[coolhandluke]

Weer 's ' t ' ambition theer ?

That sounds like your saying when good offers come in for the best of the academy or our best players , we should accept them and only re - invest a fraction of the fee received in replacements ?

It'll never wash with the fan base . We know when McCabe's pissing up our legs you know

 

[1danewhitehouse]

It's a slow day for me today and after reading through the In praise of Mccabe thread, I got to thinking: is their a definitive way to get out of League 1 and be successful in general? I think there is, and it's not a revelation; it's a drum that many of us have been banging for quite some time:

Sign the best young players, with potential to grow with you, from the teams around you and the division below.

Below is a list of players who fit (or have fitted) that criteria since we've been in league 1 who have gone on to be relatively successful:
Paul Caddis, Matt Ritchie, Alan Judge, Ben Pringle, Sam Winnall, Scott Hogan, Aden Flint, Luke Freeman, Ryan Woods, Andre Gray, John Egan, Romaine Sawyers & Kemar Roofe

Had we as a club dared to pay relatively modest transfer fees while in league 1, most of the above could have been in our reach at some point. The money invested in such players could have been multiplied by transfer fees recieved when sold or rewarded with success. Brentford, Barnsley and Bristol City amongst others have all followed this 'blueprint' while in league 1 and have reaped the rewards.

Granted, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm not wishing to use this as a stick to bash to the club over the head with, the signings of Fleck, O'Connell and Carruthers all enthuse me that we are heading in the right direction. I just hope that we move forward by signing young, exciting players who can develop. Should we go up this year, it would be the only way to be competitive in the Championship without spending eye-watering amount of money.

I largely agree but it still doesn't bring any guarantees

James Wallace
Nicky Ajose
Jose Baxter
Florent Cuvelier
Febian Brandy
Harrison McGahey
Alex Cisak
Kyle Bennett
Andy Williams
Jake Cassidy
Zavon Hines
Chuks Aneke
Stuart Beavon (although he came good eventually for Burton)
George Long
Louis Reed
Jay Emmanuel Thomas
Craig Eastmond
Kgosi Nthle
Daniel Powell
James Baxendale
Tom Eastman
Matheut Masett
Jamie Proctor

All of the above names have at some point in the last few years been considered hot property, good young players at this level who we could/should sign or retain. It shows that it's not always easy to identify the right ones. I'm personally guilty of wanting us to sign Aneke, Brandy, Williams, Nthle and Bennett from that list.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Money doesn't guarantee success.

It's all about 'chance'....

People create hypothetical questions then try to create [definitive] answers,
which don't exist.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I largely agree but it still doesn't bring any guarantees

James Wallace
Nicky Ajose
Jose Baxter
Florent Cuvelier
Febian Brandy
Harrison McGahey
Alex Cisak
Kyle Bennett
Andy Williams
Jake Cassidy
Zavon Hines
Chuks Aneke
Stuart Beavon (although he came good eventually for Burton)
George Long
Louis Reed
Jay Emmanuel Thomas
Craig Eastmond
Kgosi Nthle
Daniel Powell
James Baxendale
Tom Eastman
Matheut Masett
Jamie Proctor

All of the above names have at some point in the last few years been considered hot property, good young players at this level who we could/should sign or retain. It shows that it's not always easy to identify the right ones. I'm personally guilty of wanting us to sign Aneke, Brandy, Williams, Nthle and Bennett from that list.

Then there's the players likes Jamal Campbell-Rice, so difficult to give a fair valuation.

Some days he looked PL quality, he certainty had talent and potential
But most days he was league 2 quality.

Leon Clarke is another, where a fair valuation is difficult.
So many managers have seen the big talent and potential he has to be a top player
But no manager has been able to get the best out of him.
He's always flattered to deceive and his career at SU hasn't even started properly yet.
Many (including Wilder himself) still think he's capable though and can play a big part in the 2nd half of the season.

 

[BushBlade]

I largely agree but it still doesn't bring any guarantees

James Wallace
Nicky Ajose
Jose Baxter
Florent Cuvelier
Febian Brandy
Harrison McGahey
Alex Cisak
Kyle Bennett
Andy Williams
Jake Cassidy
Zavon Hines
Chuks Aneke
Stuart Beavon (although he came good eventually for Burton)
George Long
Louis Reed
Jay Emmanuel Thomas
Craig Eastmond
Kgosi Nthle
Daniel Powell
James Baxendale
Tom Eastman
Matheut Masett
Jamie Proctor

All of the above names have at some point in the last few years been considered hot property, good young players at this level who we could/should sign or retain. It shows that it's not always easy to identify the right ones. I'm personally guilty of wanting us to sign Aneke, Brandy, Williams, Nthle and Bennett from that list.

There are no guarantees in football and one would hope that those employed to find potential signings would be better at it than you or I.

I've posted a lot on BM about this in the past and I still think that recruiting good young players with a potential re-sale value is an absolute necessity if we are to progress.

The two key areas we need to look at is recruitment and youth development because under our current ownership we're never going to be in the position of Newcastle or Villa who can just buy several players at circa£10m fees and massive wages.

 

[Newbury Blade]

Also isn't recruitment all about gambling
It's not an exact science, you win some and you lose some.

Take Barnsley, sold their best striker Sam Winnall
which is terrible for them in the short term

But if that sale means they bring in Omar Boggle.
In the long term he could end up being far better than Sam Winnall.

Clubs with money pay over the odds for the tried and tested
Wherea clubs with out money are prepared to take the risk on lower division talent.

The great news for us is that Wilder is very knowledgable about the talented lower division players.

Omar Boggle? The mind bogles.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Easy question.

Who's the head of recruitment at BDTBL?

 

[Chali 2na]

Why?

Two answers in that question.

For the same reasons that any other player signs for any other club.

I'll disagree.

Do you think all the clubs mentioned are happy in their present situation?

The thread wasn't about how to make the fans happy, it was about being successful. You could argue they're successful in their own right. There's plenty of unhappy Southampton fans at the minute, yet they're arguably one of the most successfully run clubs in the country.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Easy question.

Who's the head of recruitment at BDTBL?

Suspect it's a panel of people in conjunction with the manager and directors.
So no ONE person is publicly accountable and held to blame if it goes pear shaped.
Also let's be fair, when a list of targets are drawn up there's are 1st choice, 2nd choice and 3rd choice targets.

All our 1st choice targets might have gone on to be great players but at the time we couldn't persuade them. So we drop down to our other targets. Warnock said there's a lot of luck regards recruitment, said he used to put loads of irons in the fire and sometimes his 1st choice targets went to other clubs, so he bought his 3rd choice target but they would go on to be better players than his 1st choice.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Sheffsteel ... et al.

Have a think....

It's as easy a question I can think of.

 

[Chali 2na]

I largely agree but it still doesn't bring any guarantees

James Wallace
Nicky Ajose
Jose Baxter
Florent Cuvelier
Febian Brandy
Harrison McGahey
Alex Cisak
Kyle Bennett
Andy Williams
Jake Cassidy
Zavon Hines
Chuks Aneke
Stuart Beavon (although he came good eventually for Burton)
George Long
Louis Reed
Jay Emmanuel Thomas
Craig Eastmond
Kgosi Nthle
Daniel Powell
James Baxendale
Tom Eastman
Matheut Masett
Jamie Proctor

All of the above names have at some point in the last few years been considered hot property, good young players at this level who we could/should sign or retain. It shows that it's not always easy to identify the right ones. I'm personally guilty of wanting us to sign Aneke, Brandy, Williams, Nthle and Bennett from that list.

I appreciate the point, but I would point out that a few of those names don't fit the criteria.

Its also a gamble, there is not a club in the country that only brings in good players, all recruitment methods are littered with mistakes, it's the nature of the beast.

Regardless, had we have signed a player like Hogan, Gray or Ritchie, they would have compensated for the money lost making mistakes on other players.

Money doesn't guarantee success.

It's all about 'chance'....

People create hypothetical questions then try to create [definitive] answers,
which don't exist.

No one is saying money guarantees success.

No one is disagreeing that it's about chance, several of us have pointed out the obvious that it's a gamble (the same as signing any player, young or otherwise)

It's all hypothetical, that's the nature of a forum. Every question we ponder or answer we provide serves no purpose other than to amuse each other.

 

[BushBlade]

Sheffsteel ... et al.

Have a think....

It's as easy a question I can think of.

The joint owners are ultimately responsible but I think CW now has the delegated responsibility. We don't have a 'Head of Recruitement' as far as I'm aware and I don't think many clubs do. Some have a DoF with recruitment falling under that remit.

We have a head of scouting but his job is to make recommendations to CW, not to sign players.

Forget about the committee, the day they try to undermine CW is that day the shit would truly hit the fan.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

The joint owners are ultimately responsible

You didn't need to go any further.

20/20 vision.

That's where it starts, that's where it ends. The owner(s) ...

We (The Supporters) have to have some belief in what they do, the appointments they make, the appointments they then terminate.

It's all down to chance.