Tactics vs Stoke

[Bergen Blade]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:




They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:



Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.





We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

 

[Gavlar]

Nice work as always Bergen.

 

[Silent Blade]

Top analysis, as usual!

 

[Houston_Blade]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


View attachment 133450

They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

View attachment 133451

Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

View attachment 133453

Great analysis. From the top of the away stand I was waxing lyrical about their ability to press in the right areas. They moved as a unit very well.

Like you said they let Egan and Robinson have the ball and apart from 1 decent ball from Egan it worked. I did think that they pressed Ben Davies and tried to get him on his right foot as much as possible.

MGW had someone up his arse whenever he got the ball and then no outlet as they closed the spaces behind him.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


View attachment 133450

They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

View attachment 133451

Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

View attachment 133453

I think PH deserves huge praise for reviving the squad, instilling the players belief, reinstalling some organisation. But his actual game day management, especially adapting to opposition tactics and management of subs is well below par. Just a bit basic which is understandable from someone still pretty inexperienced at that part

 

[robbiez666]

I think PH deserves huge praise for reviving the squad, instilling the players belief, reinstalling some organisation. But his actual game day management, especially adapting to opposition tactics and management of subs is well below par. Just a bit basic which is understandable from someone still pretty inexperienced at that part

I do think we have a historic issue with players as well which comes from being drilled into a way of playing with little scope for individualism. In the situation where Norwood isn't getting on the ball I'd expect the other two midfielders to drop and take the responsibility. Or try and run through (as Egan did a couple of times). Neither did. They just stood about really. Usually, we'd have an outball to Sharp upront but there was no outball except for MGW coming deep and that does little as no one runs into the space. No one ran the channel until Osula came on. We were so slow moving it around that by the time the wingbacks got the ball their defensive unit was usually set. I don't expect Davies or Robinson to put in expert passing displays but Berge and Fleck need to do a lot more. It's all far too safe when at times like yesterday we needed to take chances.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Yes, it's the old story: stop Norwood, stop Sheffield United. We don't have defenders capable of vertical passes or carrying the ball when Davies plays RCB which means that we can't feed players higher up the pitch. If you play through the thirds you have to have a functional way of getting the ball from the keeper to the defenders to the midfielders to the strikers. We don't. As a result the likes of Berge were almost playing RCB yesterday, as they had too to get on the ball. This is exacerbated by the loss of Basham who can break the line into the midfielder areas, and the frankly bizarre and increasingly stupid decision to continue to play Davies at RCB when he's the one defender we have capable of playing short and medium vertical passes. This is a pattern that we've seen in other games - the Forest game being a prime example. A lot of Stoke's best opportunities came from us giving the ball away in poor areas due to the lack of ball playing ability in the defence. The problems started at the back and poisoned the rest of the team. We have a lot of "nice" players, not warriors so when it becomes a battle we don't have the tools to find a way to win. MGW is an obvious example: give him the ball facing the opponents goal and he looks great. Give it him with his back to goal and it's almost always the opponent's ball. . We blow teams away or we lose. It's very difficult to remember many points we got that we didn't deserve.

Solutions: play forward earlier. The high line of Stoke wasn't exploited at all despite an ageing Jagielka. Stoke's tactics worked because we didn't exploit the high line meaning they could congest the pitch and eliminate Norwood by packing the middle and man marking him. Jebbo was making runs in behind all first half and growing increasingly frustrated when the ball didn't come earlier to feet or in the channel. If you have two strikers it simplifies things as there's more to hit. It also increase the risk factor of the opposition high line. Trying to play through a congested middle like we did, with the personnel we have, was the definition of insanity. Whether we can play the system and style of Hecky's early reign with the remaining fit personnel is a fair question imo? I think he also deserves some scrutiny for his inability to react during the matches: changes are too slow and rarely work.

Tactical: If you are getting overrun in midfield you pack it with more players. Hecky should've changed the shape and the style as the team was dysfunctional (and has been in a lot of recent games). The likes of Berge, Jebbo and MGW were completely peripheral as we couldn't get the ball to them unless (in Berge's case) they were really deep and under pressure. We have to find a way to get them on the ball.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I do think we have a historic issue with players as well which comes from being drilled into a way of playing with little scope for individualism. In the situation where Norwood isn't getting on the ball I'd expect the other two midfielders to drop and take the responsibility. Or try and run through (as Egan did a couple of times). Neither did. They just stood about really. Usually, we'd have an outball to Sharp upront but there was no outball except for MGW coming deep and that does little as no one runs into the space. No one ran the channel until Osula came on. We were so slow moving it around that by the time the wingbacks got the ball their defensive unit was usually set. I don't expect Davies or Robinson to put in expert passing displays but Berge and Fleck need to do a lot more. It's all far too safe when at times like yesterday we needed to take chances.

We're a bit basic and we lack versatility. But Slav was supposed to provide that tactical versatility and he was as stubborn as Wilder. 433 or nothing.

I'll take a manager the players like with a record of developing younger players, even of he's lacking in other ways. We aren't top level so we can't have everything

 

[robbiez666]

We're a bit basic and we lack versatility. But Slav was supposed to provide that tactical versatility and he was as stubborn as Wilder. 433 or nothing.

I'll take a manager the players like with a record of developing younger players, even of he's lacking in other ways. We aren't top level so we can't have everything

If we can get a decent portion of our money back for Berge and say sign Swift and a tackling midfielder we have a decent chance next year. Big if.

 

[coolasanidiot]

If we can get a decent portion of our money back for Berge and say sign Swift and a tackling midfielder we have a decent chance next year. Big if.

I can see us getting 10-12 mill. RE-investment at best 2 sadly..

 

[metalblade]

There are certain posters on this forum who have been highlighting this all season. If the opposition press Norwood he is useless to us and we struggle, it has long been the recipe to beat Sheffield United press Norwood pack the defence hit us with a ball over the top or on the counter and wait for one of our centre backs to fuck up and gift a goal.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


View attachment 133450

They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

View attachment 133451

Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

View attachment 133453

The disappointing thing is, that tactic has been used against us by savvy teams since Norwood has been here and we've seemingly still not found any answer for it.

 

[ATL Recs]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


View attachment 133450

They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

View attachment 133451

Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

View attachment 133453

What I said after 30 minutes on Saturday

 

[Broomhall Blade]

I think PH deserves huge praise for reviving the squad, instilling the players belief, reinstalling some organisation. But his actual game day management, especially adapting to opposition tactics and management of subs is well below par. Just a bit basic which is understandable from someone still pretty inexperienced at that part

He first started managing in 2015 and has managed over 180 games.
When do you become experienced ?
And how many games does it take to realise he's not a tactical genius he's just a poor manager out of his depth.

 

[Carlton Blade]

He first started managing in 2015 and has managed over 180 games.
When do you become experienced ?
And how many games does it take to realise he's not a tactical genius he's just a poor manager out of his depth.

When Wilder took over at United he'd done 800+

PH is into his 4th full season's worth of matches. You think that makes him experienced? Maybe he never gets there. But writing him off before 200 games and having several of his best technical players unavailable seems a bit premature don't you think?

 

[mattbianco1]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


View attachment 133450

They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

View attachment 133451

Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

View attachment 133453

It's been said many times before - Stop Norwood playing, you stop United playing.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

It's been said many times before - Stop Norwood playing, you stop United playing.

We need two Norwoods,a real one and a lookalike,that'll fox the opposition.

Here he is Oli's blond haired bro.

 

[Addison]

It was most noticeable against Florist at Home. It took PH 65 minutes to rectify it by taking Norwood off and going to a 2 up top. Instantly we looked better for the last 30 minutes. Its a simple tactic mark Norwood and you stop SUFC. Time to abandon the flat 3 and play on the front foot for the remaining games 3-4-1-2 or -3-4-2-1 not 3-5-1-1.

 

[Broomhall Blade]

When Wilder took over at United he'd done 800+

PH is into his 4th full season's worth of matches. You think that makes him experienced? Maybe he never gets there. But writing him off before 200 games and having several of his best technical players unavailable seems a bit premature don't you think

Sorry 180 plus games is more than enough experience, don't forget he was already at the club so knew most of the players. All managers have to cope with injuries to key players its part and parcel of the job.
He just doesn't seem to be able to alter his tactics style of play in a game when a side has sussed us out, I have yet to see a substitution by him that puts us on the offensive.
If he can't change our tactics/formation when we are struggling in a game after 180 plus games as a manager then that's worrying for me.

 

[Balham]

Marking Norwood is part of the problem but our fundamental issue is an inability to change the course of a game. Stoke's pressing of Norwood caused an issue but we need to be much braver in possession and with our passing: almost all of the passing on Saturday was short, lateral and to a man who had both feet on the floor. The times we looked most threatening, as Bergen Blade highlighted in the OP, were generally when Egan stepped out of the defence, posing Stoke a different problem and probably one they weren't expecting. Egan's passing on those occasions was poor which took away the advantage he'd created.

There was also a number of occasions on Saturday when the braver pass was through the channel to the wing back or, from deep, into the channel for Jebbison to chase as he had the pace to disconcert the Stoke back line. What actually happened was that we recycled possession through a series of sideways or backwards passes until the ball ended up at the feet of the wide centre back on the opposite side of the pitch.

Other issues: Gibbs-White being crowded out, Baldock and Norrington-Davies' chronic lack of attacking instincts, Berge taking the easy option, Davies being unable to use his right foot, Robinson being average with the ball at his feet, Fleck always wanting an extra touch.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Sorry 180 plus games is more than enough experience, don't forget he was already at the club so knew most of the players. All managers have to cope with injuries to key players its part and parcel of the job.
He just doesn't seem to be able to alter his tactics style of play in a game when a side has sussed us out, I have yet to see a substitution by him that puts us on the offensive.
If he can't change our tactics/formation when we are struggling in a game after 180 plus games as a manager then that's worrying for me.

Why is it enough? How many managers are versatile and tactically advanced at all, never mind a few seasons in

 

[HOT CURRIE 10]

Good analysis,you see some things that aren’t always seen. This plan A is heckys downfall with limited plan B to back it up,I’m starting to have doubts with us going forward,the young kids really need to kick on next season but with a same way of playing and an easy way to stop us playing the management have to step up their game twofold

 

[Greystones Blade]

But next season with Bogle and Lowe at wing back and Basham or A N Other at RCB and a couple of forwards back in the mix we’d be a very different side. Injuries do affect performances.

 

[Panini]

I try not to be harsh on Norwood. He was part of a great team and 2 very memorable seasons, but it's not easy to separate the good memories from the recent.

Since the start of last season he's played 70 games and, objectively, has made a positive contribution in 5 or 6 of them.

He has just one strength and is only able to operate when the team is set up around that. As the OP shows, if the opponent shuts that down (which isn't particularly difficult) he's a passenger.

When opponents don't target him, how often do we benefit from it? His set pieces create more attacks for opponents than chances for us, though he's not the only one guilty of that.

I don't swoon over the odd cross field pass that finds its target, in the same way I don't obsess about a goals + assists record which isn't what it should be.

Half a dozen 4 or 5/10 performances followed by a 6/10 isn't good enough and I must be blind to what some others because I sometimes feel like I'm reading about Christian Eriksen.

I hope we're able to build a new midfield in the summer but unless someone comes in for him (!) we're picking up this wage for another year. I hope he enjoys the rest of his career wherever he goes after us but I'll be relieved when he's no longer part of our squad.

 

[blade67]

It's been said many times before - Stop Norwood playing, you stop United playing.

That was easier said than done when Baldock, Basham, JOC and Enda (18/19) were offering other options all over the place.
Leeds did it as did WBA but that was it at this level, certainly at the lane.
The PL was a different story to a degree, but on Saturday, B Davies, JR and RND were a long way short of the players available to Wilder, in the same formation.

Norwood, although flawed, isn't our problem. We do need an alternative, which is probably to withdraw him and go more direct with 2 athletic lads up front instead. On ocasions that will look fucking awful, and this place will go nuts with negativity, but that's football forums for you

 

[John Street West Terrace]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


View attachment 133450

They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

View attachment 133451

Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

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Same tactic employed by our opponents last season in the Prem , Emily a marker to just sit on Norwood. The problem we have is we don’t have many runners / ball carriers in midfield nowadays , something Coventry exploited over & over again . Used to be Flecks role under Wilder but nowadays he sits deep also & Berge plays in a more advanced position.
Something we definitely need next season is some new younger legs in that midfield to play along side a more experienced player .
Hourihane, Fleck & Norwood all very similar in there style & positional sense

 

[ATL Recs]

But next season with Bogle and Lowe at wing back and Basham or A N Other at RCB and a couple of forwards back in the mix we’d be a very different side. Injuries do affect performances.

Bogle may ne here until fitness proved then sold Low will be gone in the summer

 

[bakeblade]

Thought we had no answers to Stoke's tactics yesterday. They decided to mark Norwood out of the game, i.e prevent him from getting on the ball. Typically:


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They weren't too fussed about our centre halves. Davies looks uncomfortable and limited in what he can do from that right side. Robinson is also poor on the ball and a lot of opposition teams are happy to just let him have it. Egan stayed back most of the time. Vrancic almost man marked Norwood though. Note that Fleck drops down to compensate for Norwood being marked, but Davies won't play a pass like that with his weaker foot. Berge is also just off the picture, but also well marked.

So Davies looks for a forward and finds Jebbison, but the centre half is all over him and as can be seen their midfielders are near to help him:

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Stoke won the ball here and started a counter attack.

They were well organised. Note how compact they are with small distances between the departments and between the players within their department. They knew who to press and who they'd be happy to let play a (mediocre/poor) forward pass. Then they'd be aggressive on the receiving player. Fleck and Berge struggled to get on the ball in good situations and our forwards struggled to hold it up. Our wingbacks really aren't very creative and we shouldn't expect magic from them.

We have to prepare better for scenarios like yesterday's. We looked clueless trying to get moves going when Norwood was unable to get on the ball.

What should we have done?

Well, we can't have a back five that contributes so little offensively when the rest are struggling. Below was a rare example when Egan brought it out of defence, and Stoke are suddenly unsure what to do, who to press him as he advances. There is space in behind them and they look vulnerable. RND is available on the left and Jebbison has space to run into. More of that. The vision and runs weren't there on this occasion, but for once we tried a move that saw them lose a bit control.



View attachment 133454

We could also have added another forward up front, with Osula AND Jebbison making runs down the channels we may have forced Jags and his fellow defenders to do more running than they'd liked. There's no shame in this. Southampton did this against us last season, loads of balls played in behind and down the channels and in the end they beat us easily.

Better passing from the defenders may have helped, but the current selection is not great at this.


I mentioned them keeping the right distance between departments (and players). We did not. Our defence may have thought Maja was a huge threat in behind. He's normally not. But our back five dropped and stayed so deep that they gave our midfielders far too much space to cover. Meaning we never got close enough to make a challenge. Stoke were also limited in terms of creativity and ability, but when they were regularly given this much space in the second half I thought it was only a matter of time before they'd punish us.

View attachment 133453

Welcome Back mate! Really interesting and insightful analysis as usual.
I understand these take a fair bit of time, but being selfish I wish you'd do more of them.