Tactics and Blades fans

[OllyBlade]

Has anyone else read the latest article by Jonathan Wilson on the Guardian?

Linky -
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/dec/18/question-holding-midfielders-changing-role

Maybe not directly relevant, but one of his comments reminded me a lot of the tactical debates that happened on the forum especially during Weir's tenure -

Terms like 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 are useful as a rough guide, but only that: the higher the level, the more teams are agglomerations of bundles of attributes; the key is balance rather than fitting to some abstract designation, even if that shape can be useful in the defensive phase.

Of course we are not exactly at a high level but I think it pins down some of the problems we had talking about formations. I'm not sure the problems Weir had were ever down to the formation, with the exception of how he was perceived by the fans. The problem instead was how the team was playing, the tempo, the aggression etc, and the balance of the players.

 

[alcoblade]

Terms like 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 are useful as a rough guide, but only that: the higher the level, the more teams are agglomerations of bundles of attributes; the key is balance rather than fitting to some abstract designation, even if that shape can be useful in the defensive phase

I think someone's head might explode with this one.

"agglomerations of bundles of attributes" - surely you just pass it to death and lift the Champions league Trophy a few years later?



UTB

 

[Cheshire Cat]

This bit immediately made me draw comparisons:

... the destroyer and the creator, the classic example of which was perhaps Javier Mascherano and Xabi Alonso at Liverpool. As Mascherano clattered about making tackles and collecting bookings, his role almost entirely of regaining possession and distributing it simply, Xabi Alonso, although capable of making tackles, focused on keeping the ball moving, occasionally raking long passes out to the flanks to change the angle of attack ...

We seemed to have one chasing shadows whilst the other waved his arms as play passed him by.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

The beauty of football is that there are a multitude of ways to win a game. Supporters talk complete rubbish most of time....and usually pinpoint one reason (often the wrong one) for why their team isn't winning.

For a lot of teams 4-4-2 works, for some it doesn't....for others it works at first, then stops working. Its a game with endless variables and any one of them (large or small) can have a huge impact. The performance or attitude of individuals on the day from either team, the way the opposition lines up, the performance of the referee, the run of the ball etc. etc. etc. and so on and so on.....

When all is said and done the only thing a manager can do is play to the strengths of his players and set them up in a way that will give them the best chance of beating the other team. Essentially it's an educated guess each time, of course in some cases more of an educated one than others.....

 

[SheepdipBlade]

When all is said and done the only thing a manager can do is play to the strengths of his players and set them up in a way that will give them the best chance of beating the other team. Essentially it's an educated guess each time, of course in some cases more of an educated one than others.....

Though this also includes changing players and formation to counter the opposition - such as Allardyce's 4-6-0 earlier this year, and similar decisions by Pulis and Martinez at Stoke and Wigan - it may not just be about maximizing your own strengths.

 

[super_pig]

I think someone's head might explode with this one.
"agglomerations of bundles of attributes" - surely you just pass it to death and lift the Champions league Trophy a few years later?

UTB

you started it

 

[SandyMcBlade]

All you can do is put together a bunch of gifted players that can play as a team, and pray for good luck.

All the rest is propaganda.

 

[brownie4583]

Wot......no Pinchy?

 

[grafikhaus]

This reminds me of when a pal used to ring me after each home and ask 'What formation did we play?' I used to reply that 'formation' was a relative term where United were concerned (especially under Weir).

Thankfully NC seems to be improving things such as playing to strengths etc., but I maintain that 'formations' is an over-used theory. A bit liker 'zonal marking' where you tell players to guard a space rather than worry about what the opposition are up to.

And don't get me started on 'a false 9'.

 

[OllyBlade]

I think someone's head might explode with this one.

"agglomerations of bundles of attributes" - surely you just pass it to death and lift the Champions league Trophy a few years later?



UTB

Yes I do think "agglomerations" was a bit much..

 

[Pinchy]

Wot......no Pinchy?

I'm here mate. Just listening this time. You all know what I think [actually, one or two like to tell me what I think] so no gain from constant repetition.

SandyMcBlade put it in a nutshell for me. I hate fucking whiteboards. OPTA stats and videos with arrows and all that shite. I don't need to be told, for example, that Nick Montgomery covered more yards than anyone else because my eyes told me that he was a shadow-chaser.

Clough Sr. would have thrown the whole lot in the bin, told Kenny Burns to fetch a dozen bottles of beer, and won the European Cup!

 

[alcoblade]

Things were so much
better in the good old daaaaaays.......

 

[LSF]

The beauty of football is that there are a multitude of ways to win a game. Supporters talk complete rubbish most of time....and usually pinpoint one reason (often the wrong one) for why their team isn't winning.

Never a truer word spoken! Especially the highlighted bit....

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Never a truer word spoken! Especially the highlighted bit....

If only I could have included the word "the" in my post so that the sentence would have made sense

 

[SwissBlade]

Watching the Liverpool v Cardiff game last night and we discussed a similar thing. Good teams are those that have players who can slot into different positions to maintain some sort of skeleton in case of a counter attack. Better teams are those that can break quickly.

But the big thing was that whilst Suarez is on fire, he's picking the ball up deep at times and often starting attacks, but he also manages to be on the end of an attack. He has a free role. So why don't teams stick one man on him, a workhorse player who can disrupt him. It seems he's exploiting the static formations in the premier league. But if teams stick a player on him for 90 mins and man-mark it might be a different outcome

 

[BushBlade]

Hi, new poster. I've always been of the view that tactically, the most important part is for your tactics to suit the players you have at your disposal. It's not just about formations, it's about patterns of play and the approach to the game, how you defend and how you attack.
For example you can play any formation but use it defensively or look to attack at every opportunity. Do you press from the front? Keep a high line?
Any system will work with the right players doing jobs they're comfortable with. The better the players, the more complete they are, the less of a problem it becomes, hence the top clubs will change their tactics subtley from game to game, sometimes even during games.
It's not just about tactics, it's about players but numerous managers from Bassett and Taylor to Rodgers and Martinez have shown that by getting the right players in the right system you can overachieve as a team.