SYP taking their ball home...

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Linz

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They want to be paid more for beating football fans up ;)

Next they'll be asking the family of someone who's been murdered to cough up a tenner to investigate!

I know the coppers on the ground last season thought very lowly of their superiors and their handing of the games. Perhaps they ought to look in their own back yard before throwing more cash at the issue.

The Star: Game over for clubs?

POLICE are threatening to blow the whistle on live football in South Yorkshire - after warning professional clubs they may stop covering matches unless they pay the force more.
Bosses at South Yorkshire Police no longer want to spend millions of pounds of taxpayers' money policing games and are asking clubs to reimburse their costs.

Last year the force spent £2.1 million policing matches, dealing with brawls between rival fans and escorting travelling supporters to and from grounds.

This year, through Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday, Rotherham, Barnsley and Doncaster agreeing to pay for officers used in and immediately outside their stadiums, the force is expecting to re-coup £1.1 million.

But that leaves a £1 million shortfall based on last year's costs.

Assistant Chief Constable Andy Holt said the force has secured an extra £350,000 this year after a new ruling gave police the right to charge clubs for bobbies working directly outside grounds.

But he said it is still not enough.

"Unfortunately we still can't charge for escorting travelling fans, monitoring the behaviour of people leaving pubs, and dealing with disturbances before and after games if they are away from the grounds.

"Football is unique because of the violence and disorder associated with it compared to other events, so policing has to be taken seriously.

"Every game is risk-assessed and policed accordingly with an agreed amount of officers, but not everyone agrees with this use of taxpayers' money and would rather it was spent differently.

"Because of our policing, the use of CCTV, better stewarding, better stadia and crowd segregation, if fans are going to engage in disorder they tend to do it away from the grounds - and that is our frustration because the costs of dealing with those issues are borne by us.

"I would like to see a higher proportion of costs borne by the clubs and, if they disagree, we have the option of not policing games.

"The effect of that is safety certificates would not be granted, so games would have to be played behind closed doors."

He added: "We would not take that decision lightly - but it is an option. We can't spend taxpayers' money subsidising a commercial enterprise."

Playing home games without fans watching would threaten the future of clubs, with gate receipts crucial to their profitability.

Sheffield United's safety officer Steve Hicks - a former police officer - said the situation would never reach that stage, but urged police chiefs to treat football clubs fairly.

"Some clubs can't afford to pay any more but would have to if the police threatened to pull out, but in doing that the force could be instrumental in putting them out of business," he said. "We have to pay £31,000 for United's game against Wednesday this year but other entertainment venues don't pay a penny.

"Sheffield has a retail crime unit where officers patrol shops looking for shoplifters –do the shops pay for that? No. Isn't that supporting commercial enterprise?

"We pay an inflated rate for police officers for match days and pay them for six hours even though they are not here for that long, so football does contribute a vast amount of money towards policing.

"Football does need police officers, there is no doubt about it, but pubs, clubs and shops also need them. I know the police service nationally is short of money but it isn't up to football clubs to subsidise it.

"We want to pay a fair and appropriate amount."

Sheffield Wednesday declined to comment.

We ought to have a game of "how many coppers are stood in front of the corner between JS and the Kop doing FA every Saturday?"... surely there's no need for that many people on overtime?

Funnily enough, there always seems to be even more coppers for matches on Sunday too.... double time?
 



Funnily enough, there always seems to be even more coppers for matches on Sunday too.... double time?

SYP don't take any officers off other duties for "special" public order policing, like football matches. They use coppers who would normally be off duty. A lot of the officers are working on their days off, apart from possibly the specialist ones - mounted, helicopter crew, and traffic plod - and get paid plus a day off in lieu. That explains why you see a lot of short coppers, old coppers, and usually on the corner of Bramall Lane and John Street one copper roughly the same shape as a Mister Man.
When my brother was part of Rotherham's pro-active unit, nicking drug dealers and the like he worked one match at the Lane, on his day off, and was astonished at the number of "desk pilots and uniform hangers".
A lot of the police who work match duty do it for the money, which admittedly is pretty good, hence they don't often struggle for volunteers for the overtime, but tend to get a lot of coppers who look like they might struggle to arrest a five year old.

But if there's such a problem that they will force clubs to play matches with no fans, then surely they need to shut down everywhere that sells alcohol in case people commit public order offences when drunk, as the pubs and shops don't pay extra. They also need to stop everybody driving so there will be no traffic offences to deal with, and confiscate every knife in the country.

Basically it's just the Star whipping up another load of old bollocks.
 
a couple of years ago when i was at uni I had to study business law as part of my accounts course their was a legal precedent set from just this type of thing involving SYP and SUFC. if i remember correctly the police filed a court claim for the cost of policing match day as far as i can remember they didnt win then either
 
if i remember correctly the police filed a court claim for the cost of policing match day as far as i can remember they didnt win then either

There was indeed a case, but SUFC lost.

Harris v. Sheffield United Football Club [1988] QB 77

The easiest summary is this one:

The court was asked whether services provided by the police at Sheffield United Football Club for the club's home fixtures were 'special police services' so that if they were provided at the club's request the police could charge for them.

Up until 1970 the club had made special arrangements for the attendance of police officers at matches for which payments had been made. Thereafter the police continued to attend at matches both inside and outside the ground, but the club's view was that they were obliged to do so in accordance with their duty to maintain law and order. The club refused to make any payment. The police authority claimed £51,669 for the services of officers inside the ground for a 15 month period between August 1982 and November 1983 on the basis that they were 'special police services'. The club argued that they were not and that the police were doing no more than carrying out their duty. Further, the club denied that over a short period at the end of 1983 they had 'requested' police services for the purposes of the section and counterclaimed a declaration that they were not liable to make any payment for police services unless they requested attendance by officers to fulfil roles other than police duty.

Held: Whilst the courts must be astute to condemn illegal acts by the police, "The true rule, in my judgment is as follows. In deciding how to exercise his public duty of enforcing the law, and of keeping the peace, a chief constable has a discretion, which he must exercise even-handedly. Provided he acts within his discretion, the courts will not interfere;. . . . In exercising that discretion a chief constable must clearly have regard to the resources available to him."

Neill LJ: "Bearing these considerations in mind I return to the present case. The club has responsibilities which are owed not only to its employees and the spectators who attend but also to the football authorities to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the game takes place in conditions which do not occasion danger to any person or property. The attendance of the police is necessary to assist the club in the fulfilment of this duty. The matches take place regularly and usually at weekends during about eight months of the year. Though the holding of the matches is of some public importance because of the wide spread support in the local community both for the game and the club, the club is not under any legal duty to hold the matches. The charges which the police authority seek to make, and have made, relate solely to the officers on duty inside the ground and not to those in the street or other public places outside.

There is clear evidence that the chief constable would be unable to provide the necessary amount of protection for Bramall Lane and also to discharge his other responsibilities without making extensive use of officers who would otherwise have been off duty. Substantial sums by a way of overtime have therefore to be paid. The arrangements for the attendance of the officers are made to guard against the possibility, and for some matches the probability, of violence; the officers are not sent to deal with an existing emergency, nor can it be said that any outbreak of violence is immediately imminent.

In my judgment, looking at all these factors I am driven to the conclusion that the provision of police officers to attend regularly at Bramall Lane throughout the football season does constitute the provision of special police services. Nor in my opinion is it to the point that the club has stated that they do not expect the police to carry out any duties other then to maintain law and order. The resources of the police are finite. In my view if the club wishes on a regular basis to make an exceptional claim on police services to deal with potential violence on its premises, then however well intentioned and public spirited it may be in assembling the crowd at Bramall Lane, the services which it receives are "special police services" within the meaning of section 15(1) of the Police Act 1964."

Balcombe LJ said that the chief constable had a discretion which he must exercise even handedly. Provided he acted within his discretion, the courts would not interfere. In answering the question whether the provision of police within the club's ground was a special service the judge said: "The numbers considered necessary to carry out these services could only be provided by calling on officers who, at the material times, would otherwise have been off duty. The scope and extent of those services and their impact on the chief constable's manpower resources put them beyond what the club, in the circumstances, was entitled to have provided in pursuance of the chief constable's public duty. He was entitled to provide those services because he was able to do so without depriving other people of police protection.

In other words, the services provided were within his powers; they were not within the scope of his public duty. I am satisfied that they were special services as I understand that expression to have been used in the Glasbrook case and within the meaning of section 15(1) of the Police Act 1964. It follows that he was entitled to provide them on condition that they were paid for". In my judgment that is a correct statement of the legal position which cannot be faulted."
 
This is the poilce who decided to pick on a bloke at the Lion on the day of the Cardiff match who hadn't moved from near where we sit for at least half an hour and then chose to get the face on and try provoking one of his friends who had dared to question them by saying 'you've got the wrong person'.

They were trying to cause trouble, and this was a Female Poilce officer on horse back.
Her Ego was massive and she had totally lost the plot of what she should have been doing. Protecting the public.
 
also why does it take 12 coppers to arrest 1 bloke 10 mins after the incident started. Then they are blocking the game off some of the time filming and just stood around. So part of my ticket money would be going for some copper to stand in my way! Smashing!
 
also why does it take 12 coppers to arrest 1 bloke 10 mins after the incident started. Then they are blocking the game off some of the time filming and just stood around. So part of my ticket money would be going for some copper to stand in my way! Smashing!

I remember when we beat Wednesday a few years back 3-1 and before the match I had to get a new ticket stub from the box office. Then on my way back round the ground I saw about 10-12 coppers trying to arrest like 3 Wednesday fans. Mind you there were more police on anyway but still they struggled to arrest a handful of people.
 
The SYP should not have to subsidise the policing of football matches.
They do a fantastic job and keep our streets safe.
A PC or WPC gets paid less for a years work than some of the players at BDTBL get a week !
 
The SYP should not have to subsidise the policing of football matches.
They do a fantastic job and keep our streets safe.
A PC or WPC gets paid less for a years work than some of the players at BDTBL get a week !

The clubs aren't disputing the fact that they should pay for police in and around the ground... but why should they be forced to pay for BTP and the like to knock about town hours after the match?

How do you draw the line between football trouble and normal trouble when it's miles away and hours after a game?

We already pay for police through our taxes, why should we pay again through ticket prices? Those going down town don't have the costs passed on to them...
 
We already pay for police through our taxes, why should we pay again through ticket prices? Those going down town don't have the costs passed on to them...

Surely anyone who breaks the law in anyway should pay in that case!

Tax the prisoners!!

:p
 
Simple really SUFC should pay for the "legal thugs" inside the stadium, anywhere outside the turnstiles is in my view a public area where everyone is free to go and do what they wish and should be policed as such. If two groups meet up for a fight let's say on London Road SUFC can't really be held responsible. Far more disorder happens every Friday and Saturday night every week in the town centre who pays for the police at 2am we the bars turn out certainly not the night clubs.

The SYP should not have to subsidise the policing of football matches.
They do a fantastic job and keep our streets safe.
A PC or WPC gets paid less for a years work than some of the players at BDTBL get a week
!

I think you might be on the wind up Beighton ;) keep our streets safe don't make me laugh, forget the BBC etc the top firm round here is SYP, to quote you "I wouldn't pay half of them 30 bob a week. Legalised thugs and now they want to be legalised thieves. kers :rant:
 
Quite a few issues to cover here it seems.

It's probably another debate as to whether nightclubs and bars should pay extra for the policing in the evening at weekends, as most of the crime if fuelled by alcohol. I think they should, but as pointed out that ticket prices may rise if football clubs were to pay out the extra cash, the same would most likely happen in bars with regards to entry fees and drinks prices, etc.

Then there's the debate as to where the line is drawn between policing the fans and normal weekend policing duties. Where do they start and end, do they cross over? Maybe there needs to be an operational change into the shifts that can be worked, so a clear simple overtime structure can be drawn up. I have seen the coppers hawking around the fixture list with their diaries checking to see if they're on or off duty, on the riot van in the evening, etc to score some overtime, and who can blame them, we all like more money. I think that SYP cannot charge for escorting fans to and from the station aswell as escorting the coaches in from and to the parkway or wherever they take them, something else that should be looked at.

Then as rightly brought up, bonuses for high ranking officers. Well, it's the way of the world, those high up get paid massive amounts and as we have seen with some large corporate firms get huge bonuses, even when they have failed as a golden handshake. There is an argument for and against, high ranking officers are there for a reason, and if people think that the service the police provides now is pap, it could be considerably worse without them. However, a severely reduced rate of pay would make most of them walk, would this make the service better? It would certainly attract those officers, seargents and inspectors to rise thorugh the ranks, and maybe you could day then you have district commanders and chief inspectors who are more ground savvy.

Steve Hicks (the Blades safety officer) was quoted in the star as saying "Sheffield has a retail crime unit where police officers patrol shops looking for shoplifters, do the shops pay for that? No, isn't that suporting commercial enterprise?" Well he could have an argument if he had got the role of the retail crime unit correct, but I can see what he's trying to get at.

Sheffield isn't the only force to be asking this, it's going to drag on for a while I think.
 

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