Ball Sup Blog... SUFC Academy v Derby County (a)

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It's interesting that Ukaki, Nwachukwu and Polendekov aren't even making the development bench and haven't done for a while. I know it's been said that they are all likely to be moved on, but what exactly are they doing day to day if they aren't even in consideration for the u21s? Are they really that bad?
 



Nedski said:
It's interesting that Ukaki, Nwachukwu and Polendekov aren't even making the development bench and haven't done for a while. I know it's been said that they are all likely to be moved on, but what exactly are they doing day to day if they aren't even in consideration for the u21s? Are they really that bad?
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Thing is, I don't think Ukaki is anywhere near as bad as made out. Certainly offered something and was involved in a fair few goals pre-season.
 
Ball_Sup (Phil) said:
Silent Blade but that's a thousand years ago. Youth Football has changed immeasurably since then. You need a more recent "precedent".

My argument would be ... Brian Gayle would have developed "even further" if he'd been playing in a successful, winning, strong Youth team.

Good players play better when surrounded by other good players, in a winning environment.
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Thousand years ago? That's bollocks!
It is still the case that to have a regular place in the first team you need to have the right "character" no matter how talented you are, having the right fitness is another thing too. There are still a lot of talented players who give up on football too easily when not given a first team contract rather than fighting back through the non league and prove the pro club they are released from wrong.
 
Silent Blade said:
Thousand years ago? That's bollocks!
It is still the case that to have a regular place in the first team you need to have the right "character" no matter how talented you are, having the right fitness is another thing too. There are still a lot of talented players who give up on football too easily when not given a first team contract rather than fighting back through the non league and prove the pro club they are released from wrong.
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What do you think about my argument that players will develop better in a successful, winning team?

A Marshall Francis will develop better in the current, winning SUFC U21 side. Than he would languishing in a piss poor side losing every week, with no oooommmmpppphhhh around the place.

Brian Gayle is what? Sixty now? FFS. 🤓
 
Ball_Sup (Phil) said:
What do you think about my argument that players will develop better in a successful, winning team?

A Marshall Francis will develop better in the current, winning SUFC U21 side. Than he would languishing in a piss poor side losing every week, with no oooommmmpppphhhh around the place.

Brian Gayle is what? Sixty now? FFS. 🤓
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If Marshall Francis has the right "character" and fitness then he could make it to the first team. I have not seen him him play and will leave it to the qualified coaching staff and manager to decide when he is ready rather than trust a regular Academy watcher who makes friends with the Academy players parents and believe them that their sons are as good as they think!
You have to understand that Character and fitness are as important as talent.
 
Silent Blade said:
If Marshall Francis has the right "character" and fitness then he could make it to the first team. I have not seen him him play and will leave it to the qualified coaching staff and manager to decide when he is ready rather than trust a regular Academy watcher who makes friends with the Academy players parents and believe them that their sons are as good as they think!
You have to understand that Character and fitness are as important as talent.
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Not sure what you're on about mate.

I'm posing a general, hypothetical argument about different development rates in winning teams Vs losing teams.

I'm suggesting this character thing might be better developed and illustrated in a winning team, and might be more difficult in perennial losing teams.

I'm saying SUFC U21 "current streak" is a good thing. Well, that's what Zack Giggs Dad told me... 👴

Have you not even seen Marshall on the streams? 🤓
 
Tarqs said:
Thing is, I don't think Ukaki is anywhere near as bad as made out. Certainly offered something and was involved in a fair few goals pre-season.
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Yeah I thought he looked decent pre season. I'm not gonna hold the Birmingham game against him! And Nwachukwu made the bench in a Wilder squad. Considering Wilder has been known to leave spaces on a bench in the past, surely that's an indication he's knocking on the door?
As for Polendekov, he's only 18!
 
Ball_Sup (Phil) said:
I'm posing a general, hypothetical argument about different development rates in winning teams Vs losing teams.

I'm suggesting this character thing might be better developed and illustrated in a winning team, and might be more difficult in perennial losing teams.
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Maybe the Wimbledon coaching staff thought Gayle had the right "character" and fight while the rest of his teammates in the youth team allowed their heads to drop?
 
Silent Blade said:
Maybe the Wimbledon coaching staff thought Gayle had the right "character" and fight while the rest of his teammates in the youth team allowed their heads to drop?
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Of course. Of course. Good players can emerge from poor Academy sides. Undoubtedly. And United used "Strength Through Adversity" even last night. With players out of position, in a different formation.

But, losing games shouldn't be an Academy Strategy. (And, I know you're not saying that).

I just believe it's better for an Academy Team to be winning all before it. Rather than stinking every week. And we should be happy to celebrate that. (And, I know you're not saying don't celebrate).
 
Nedski said:
It's interesting that Ukaki, Nwachukwu and Polendekov aren't even making the development bench and haven't done for a while. I know it's been said that they are all likely to be moved on, but what exactly are they doing day to day if they aren't even in consideration for the u21s? Are they really that bad?
Click to expand...

Tarqs said:
Thing is, I don't think Ukaki is anywhere near as bad as made out. Certainly offered something and was involved in a fair few goals pre-season.
Click to expand...
Those three are very much victims of the circumstances and the behind-the-scenes politics at the Lane. Irrespective of whether they're good enough or potentially good enough, they're tainted through being recommended by Short Circuit Science and as part of Wilder's reinstatement he's clearing the decks of all James Bord's influence.

I'm not saying they're going to be world-beating but at the same time they might have offered us something. Who knows. GLTTLs.
 
Ted Maul said:
Have to admit I was hoping the response was going to be "Was there a stream?", leading to an inevitable "Will it be streamed?"/"Was there a stream?" face-off going on and on into eternity.
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Derby were doing a Stream last night. We checked as soon as we got there. So we had time to unplug the fucker...
 



Nedski said:
It's interesting that Ukaki, Nwachukwu and Polendekov aren't even making the development bench and haven't done for a while. I know it's been said that they are all likely to be moved on, but what exactly are they doing day to day if they aren't even in consideration for the u21s? Are they really that bad?
Click to expand...
We probably want to free up our ESC slots too. I haven’t got evidence to support it but I can’t imagine too many Championship sides are using all 4 slots on players nowhere near the first team.
 
Looking at the club at the present time our long term development opportunities seem to rely on

  • Parachute payment transfers
  • AI generated recruitment
  • Our academy

The former is about to reach its end. The second option is yet to produce any positive results.

So that leaves our academy. Peck, Arblaster, Seriki and Brooks if all fit represent 40% of our outfield players in a first team. We need to see this increase, maybe up by 2 more players to start and then on to 2 more players.

The Rumour Mill is a constant stream of players we are showing an interest in bringing to the club. We never hear anything about the development of our academy players apart from those ITK who attend matches.

Beattie, One, Marsh.
Hampson, Blacker
Sachdev, Aston

Just to have 2 of these to progress as our 4 current Academy products have done would be a great piece of business.
 
Ball_Sup (Phil) said:
I just believe it's better for an Academy Team to be winning all before it. Rather than stinking every week. And we should be happy to celebrate that. (And, I know you're not saying don't celebrate).
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The only problem with this is that sometimes it all becomes too easy. It needs to be a competitive league. I've always thought that you need to play with and against better players to develop your own game.
Isn't that why we send our young players out on loan, to play at a higher level.
The argument against this, and we have witnessed it this season, is that players thrive on confidence, winning games develops confidence and players perform better.
It needs to be balanced.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
The only problem with this is that sometimes it all becomes too easy. It needs to be a competitive league. I've always thought that you need to play with and against better players to develop your own game.
Isn't that why we send our young players out on loan, to play at a higher level.
The argument against this, and we have witnessed it this season, is that players thrive on confidence, winning games develops confidence and players perform better.
It needs to be balanced.
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That opens the Cat 1 Cat 2 debate. Clubs moving up to Cat 1 Academy Status often cite something like "better quality opposition and game programme" as a reason.

For context, Derby County are a Cat 1 Academy.

There are increasing opportunities for Cat 2 Academies to play Cat 1. Including the Premier League Cup being reported on here. And, a new initiative this season will see Cat 1 & Cat 2 Clubs playing each other in the end of season play offs (no promotion nor relegation of course).

But, if the desire for SUFC Academy is to regularly play with and against better players, then we would need to invest to move to Cat 1 status. And, bluntly, that requires money that would/could be otherwise spent on fees, wages, etc for the First Team Squad.

We did NOT take the dividend of PL money to invest in a Cat 1 Academy. Because we spent the money on "attempted survival". Some Clubs, Derby County included, have taken that Academy dividend.

There is an argument for SUFC "marking time" on recruiting to the First Team. Pursuing promotion, hoping for promotion, for sure. But deliberately and explicitly siphoning money off to develop the Academy, and indeed the proposed First Team training centre at Dore.

In today's football world, certainly without PL money, it is very very difficult to spend on the First Team AND spend on infrastructure and developing/ supporting a Cat 1 Academy.

I'm tempted to say ... discuss
 
Ball_Sup (Phil) said:
That opens the Cat 1 Cat 2 debate. Clubs moving up to Cat 1 Academy Status often cite something like "better quality opposition and game programme" as a reason.

For context, Derby County are a Cat 1 Academy.

There are increasing opportunities for Cat 2 Academies to play Cat 1. Including the Premier League Cup being reported on here. And, a new initiative this season will see Cat 1 & Cat 2 Clubs playing each other in the end of season play offs (no promotion nor relegation of course).

But, if the desire for SUFC Academy is to regularly play with and against better players, then we would need to invest to move to Cat 1 status. And, bluntly, that requires money that would/could be otherwise spent on fees, wages, etc for the First Team Squad.

We did NOT take the dividend of PL money to invest in a Cat 1 Academy. Because we spent the money on "attempted survival". Some Clubs, Derby County included, have taken that Academy dividend.

There is an argument for SUFC "marking time" on recruiting to the First Team. Pursuing promotion, hoping for promotion, for sure. But deliberately and explicitly siphoning money off to develop the Academy, and indeed the proposed First Team training centre at Dore.

In today's football world, certainly without PL money, it is very very difficult to spend on the First Team AND spend on infrastructure and developing/ supporting a Cat 1 Academy.

I'm tempted to say ... discuss
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This is one of those discussions that would be better sat in a pub, in front of an open fire with a decent pint.
Our track record of bringing top level players through the ranks is excellent.Its a pity we don't get to keep them all, but thats a different discussion.
So you could argue that its working the way it currently operates. Is that down to our scouting system and coaching staff and therefore the training facilities aren't as important? Your knowledge of how the club operates at that level is better than mine.
We all want the club to be better than it is, to compete at the top level.
Without mega rich investors surely the only way to move forward is by identifying young players with potential and developing them. To be really succesful at that do we need better facilities or is the fact that we give our youngsters the chance to play first team football the attraction?
I don't see the point of buying the land at Dore if we don't develop it and it's all gone very quiet. Eventually that might be to provide better first team training facilities which would then leave Shirecliffe, at a guess, unable to be developed due to a lack of funds.
As some say, the way to solve this is above my pay grade.
 
Category 1 Academy Status is NOT all about facilities and infrastructure. It is also about coaching structures and staffing levels. It is sometimes those ongoing, recurring costs that clubs struggle with. Either failing audit, or "voluntarily" falling back to Cat 2.

The Carrier Bag Firm have a way of reminding ourselves that Cat 1 have deeper & wider coaching structures.

"Hey Phil, remember that time when Tottenham came to play at Shirecliffe. There weren't enough fucking room on the bench for all the coaches they had brought. And they had to go a fetch some chairs out of the building..." 🤓

I'm not trying to be picky. But Norwood's 6 iron earlier point was about quality of opposition (players) - that can only be addressed by Cat 1 Status.

In the past, I've generally said I doubt it matters to a Club of our standing whether we're at Cat 1 or Cat 2. And we're probably OK saving the money and staying as Top Dog Cat 2.
 
Ball_Sup (Phil) said:
🛍️ Carrier Bag Firm
⚔️ Sheffield United U21 2️⃣
🐏 Derby County 1️⃣
⚽ SUFC 2025/26 Game 3️⃣4️⃣
🏟️ Third Venue "lucky"
🔦 Lights ✅
🌡️ Heating ✅
⛳ Flags 🚫😱
🟥 Red Card for the Bench
6️⃣ Out Of 6️⃣
Click to expand...

Having read your blog it provides a clearer view of the gulf between the Cat 1 & 2 academies.
It makes you wonder how much Derby spent and how long it will be before they see a return on that investment.
On the face of it you would think that our current set up is delivering better players than sone Cat 1 academies.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
Having read your blog it provides a clearer view of the gulf between the Cat 1 & 2 academies.
It makes you wonder how much Derby spent and how long it will be before they see a return on that investment.
On the face of it you would think that our current set up is delivering better players than sone Cat 1 academies.
Click to expand...
Although it's worth pointing out - the opulence of Moor Farm is partly because it is all purpose. Both the Cat 1 Academy AND the First Team Training Centre.

My fear is that recruiting quality INTO a Cat 2 Academy will become more difficult over time. That will impact the delivering out of that you mention.
 
Norwood's 6 iron said:
Having read your blog it provides a clearer view of the gulf between the Cat 1 & 2 academies.
It makes you wonder how much Derby spent and how long it will be before they see a return on that investment.
On the face of it you would think that our current set up is delivering better players than sone Cat 1 academies.
Click to expand...
A few years ago a friend of mine who is a Derby fan was telling me how Derby being a Category 1 Academy keep producing players for the first team. My reply was "Your first team have achieved "Fuck all" for many years!"
 



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