Step up Mr Brooks

[BushBlade]

But we're a championship club now. And he's impressing at that level. Not league 1. And we don't want to sell. If we were on our knees broke we would be under pressure to sell for less but we're led to believe that's not the case.

I agree the Martial comparison is pie in the sky. But is a Lookman comparison? Or an Oxlade Chamberlain comparison? (and look at how the market has exploded since those days). Or an Oliver Burke comparison?

Yes, at the moment. If Brooks goes on to have another twenty or so games at this level and keeps up his current form plus some goals and some assists then you can talk about him in the same terms as Burke and Lookman.

 

[FinchleyBlade]

The fee we got for Walker was pathetic and some of the worst business we've ever done. It was blatantly obvious that he was the better player and prospect than Naughton and somehow we managed to only get 3 million for him.

Shocking.

 

[I should coco]

Out of interest, if he were to be sold, at what price would you two deem it "good business"?

Being as you asked, I'd say anything over £12m is 'good business' for a young lad with a handful of games if we sold in the JTW.

I think £10m is a minimum.

If we hang on until summer which I believe we will do, and he carries on developing, then maybe add another £2-5M.

I can't see any way that a Championship club can get over £20m for 'potential', when that potential has not been demonstrated at the required level (i.e the Prem).

Sadly I can't see us keeping him beyond the summer. His natural ambition for next season would be to play at the top and CW would have to do a fantastic selling job to convince him that another year here is better than £40k/ week and the requisite Bentley. It's not impossible though, if we finish the season well and he is still enjoying his football. He's young enough to wait and if his parents want steady progress it could happen, but if there is a shit stirring agent in the picture then we have a slim chance of keeping him.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sky sports reported a £5.5 mil bid from Derby I believe. I heard talk of £10million offers but don't know if that was confirmed.

I still don't know how he'll do but I can pretty much guarantee that £10million wouldn't get him now.

Opinions will always differ on players. I imagine it's those that didn't call him leadboots and actually thought he was very good that are critical of the sale.

I absolutely accept it. I just think it's valid to be frustrated/ disappointed that we sell for whatever clubs are willing to pay when we're talking about players we supposedly don't want to sell. If we'd just said no, either a club would have had to come in with more or we'd have kept him for the remainder of his contract.

I'll have you a twenty five quid bet to go to Forum costs that Adams next move isn't for ten million or more Dane.

BBC text and Sky report bids on a daily basis that never come off or one club denies. Derby said they were out at around £2.5m. I didn't think the club who supposedly bid £5m were named. I may be wrong. I never heard £10m even on here.

Of course. Not all though. Again, no one else came in for Harry. Moving up a level or two is clearly a risk. Only Hull gambled and it paid off. We can't afford to gamble and this are a selling club, like we always have been. That's why Wilder is a godsend because when he realises he's made a mistake he looks to move them on. We don't get stuck with them. He's utilised the money from sales admirably and as I said doesn't get pellets for. Preferring money to Adams. No one has a go at him for choosing to forego "potential".

Did we not want to sell DCL or Adams? I certainly wasn't bothered about either. Maguire is a different story, I'd have kept him but how many genuinely believed he'd become the player he has (GLTTL)?

You say that if we'd said no, a club would've come in with a higher offer. I've said all along, no one else did. That's a fact. There was one buyer each time. No bidding war based on forum valuations.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The fee we got for Walker was pathetic and some of the worst business we've ever done. It was blatantly obvious that he was the better player and prospect than Naughton and somehow we managed to only get 3 million for him.

Shocking.

And unexplainable.

 

[Sean Thornton]

But we're a championship club now. And he's impressing at that level. Not league 1. And we don't want to sell. If we were on our knees broke we would be under pressure to sell for less but we're led to believe that's not the case.

I agree the Martial comparison is pie in the sky. But is a Lookman comparison? Or an Oxlade Chamberlain comparison? (and look at how the market has exploded since those days). Or an Oliver Burke comparison?

Any who've gone for big fees and haven't pulled up any trees or are they all successes?

 

[Barney]

Out of interest, if he were to be sold, at what price would you two deem it "good business"?

Whatever the offer is, obviously... because "Nobody else would offer any more". If nobody bids for your player aside from a few luck-chancing punts, is the player only worth what was offered? You'd think so reading posts from a few on this forum, but obviously not, it's just that no team was prepared to pay what they are worth. On another day, another team might have had no problem matching the sale price.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Whatever the offer is, obviously... because "Nobody else would offer any more". If nobody bids for your player aside from a few luck-chancing punts, is the player only worth what was offered? You'd think so reading posts from a few on this forum, but obviously not, it's just that no team was prepared to pay what they are worth. On another day, another team might have had no problem matching the sale price.

Inaccurate. I thought you'd stopped that.

"No one offered more" was the quote. Which is actually true. Unlike your claim.

All those professionals not having a definitive opinion on a players value

What stopped anyone on the day offering more if they might have done "on another day" The weather? Chairmans wife's period? I'm intrigued.

 

[Fanny magnet]

People getting excited because Liverpool are linked and coming up with 20 million price tags

Liverpool have a record of stealing other people's youth players for peanuts and selling them on for big profits

Sterling cost 2 million from QPR
Jordan Ibe cost 1.5m
Solanki was free

It's a policy they use to supplement their income thanks to our friends at the premier league

 

[Barney]

Inaccurate. I thought you'd stopped that.

"No one offered more" was the quote. Which is actually true. Unlike your claim.

All those professionals not having a definitive opinion on a players value

What stopped anyone on the day offering more if they might have done "on another day" The weather? Chairmans wife's period? I'm intrigued.

Not being in the market for that particular position?

How do you know that another club wasn't planning on entering into negotiations with a higher maximum amount in mind, before we accepted the offer? Taking all the sales we've made prior to deadline day for instance...

 

[Sean Thornton]

Not being in the market for that particular position?

How do you know that another club wasn't planning on entering into negotiations with a higher maximum amount in mind, before we accepted the offer? Taking all the sales we've made prior to deadline day for instance...

I think clubs are pretty much aware of their needs, certainly on a daily basis.

Re Adams. Because of agents. Even the worst ones would be fully aware of genuine interest from other clubs.

Which other clubs may have been contemplating higher bids for Adams for example? It was hardly a deadline day move. Why do you think other clubs may have been thinking about bidding and what could have stopped them?

My opinion is based on the fact that no one else made an offer, not what if my auntie had bollocks.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.th...-che-adams-join-birmingham-city-1-8057595/amp

 

[Sean Thornton]

1danewhitehouse

You were correct . Twitchy Harry claimed Fulham bid £10m.

Although he also claimed once he didn't know Rosie was so wealthy and could use a fax!

 

[Barney]

Why do you think other clubs may have been thinking about bidding and what could have stopped them?

Like I say, it depends on what positions teams are in the market for. If a team willing to pay the amount set by us for a winger, but don't need any wingers, then they aren't going to bid for that player. Even though, had they needed a winger, they would've met the asking price.

 

[Blend-it-like-Harris]

Jordan Rhodes might not be the ideal yardstick to use in this situation, but if a Championship club is crazy enough to blow £10million on that duck-egg then let's get some realism into this thread. In a bidding war, and don't let us imagine there won't be one - there definitely will be - then the reserve price has to be at least £20million. For once in our ridiculous history of giveaway talent, let's GET REAL!!!!!!!

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

Ive got a feeling he'll get crocked by a clumsey late challenge,and it will make us all unhappy and sad.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Like I say, it depends on what positions teams are in the market for. If a team willing to pay the amount set by us for a winger, but don't need any wingers, then they aren't going to bid for that player. Even though, had they needed a winger, they would've met the asking price.

Why would anyone be willing to pay our price for a winger they don't want?

So specifically Adams, teams in the market for a player like him. Why only one bid?

Was it because they'd all spent the money on the asking price for wingers?

What you seem to be doing is countering a fact with what if's buts and maybe's.

My point isn't that Adams hasn't improved or isn't worth more, but at the time we sold him, no one else seemed to think he was worth more than the fee paid. Therefore not the valuations bandied about on here at the time.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Yes, at the moment. If Brooks goes on to have another twenty or so games at this level and keeps up his current form plus some goals and some assists then you can talk about him in the same terms as Burke and Lookman.

Ok, fair enough, the sample size is currently a lot smaller with Brooks and acknowledge it’s not like for like but certainly wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s pie in the sky. In his first 2 senior starts, one of which being in the lion’s den of a Sheffield Derby, to be named man of the match in both games, embarrassing an experienced championship full back on live TV in a big game etc. he’s really announced himself at this level in style. And let’s not forget, the market has ballooned even since Burke and Lookman. And he already has 2 or 3 assists to his name doesn’t he?

Fleck’s goal v pigs.

Clarke’s 2nd v pigs.

One in the cup v Orient last season (Chapman)


So whilst I agree the sample size is too small just now, I’d say what we’ve seen so far certainly draws parallel’s with those players.


Walker had only played a handful of games and “done nothing” when we sold him. But it was incredibly obvious to anyone who watched those few games that he was class and destined for much bigger things. By comparison, Naughton had played more games and was more established but many, myself included, deemed Walker the better, and more valuable player. It doesn’t feel like a wild leap to say the same about Brooks. I get what you mean that it might not be reflected in the market just yet but a few more games like the one’s he’s had and it will be.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'll have you a twenty five quid bet to go to Forum costs that Adams next move isn't for ten million or more Dane.

BBC text and Sky report bids on a daily basis that never come off or one club denies. Derby said they were out at around £2.5m. I didn't think the club who supposedly bid £5m were named. I may be wrong. I never heard £10m even on here.

Of course. Not all though. Again, no one else came in for Harry. Moving up a level or two is clearly a risk. Only Hull gambled and it paid off. We can't afford to gamble and this are a selling club, like we always have been. That's why Wilder is a godsend because when he realises he's made a mistake he looks to move them on. We don't get stuck with them. He's utilised the money from sales admirably and as I said doesn't get pellets for. Preferring money to Adams. No one has a go at him for choosing to forego "potential".

Did we not want to sell DCL or Adams? I certainly wasn't bothered about either. Maguire is a different story, I'd have kept him but how many genuinely believed he'd become the player he has (GLTTL)?

You say that if we'd said no, a club would've come in with a higher offer. I've said all along, no one else did. That's a fact. There was one buyer each time. No bidding war based on forum valuations.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/spo...ews/watch-birmingham-city-boss-harry-13626774


Harry reckoned they knocked back £10million. I’m not saying he’ll go for more though. Although if/when he does move on, I suspect it’ll be more than £5million (more than triple what they paid for him).


But as I say, I’m not hammering the club for selling DCL or Adams for the reasons set out (our short term goals and needs superseding the long term benefits of keeping them- thank fuck CW was able to maximize the funds generated). I was more critical of the Maguire sale because I rated him highly and thought he was absolutely integral to our promotion hopes under Clough. That said, I didn’t quite think he’d hit the heights he has. I thought he’d be a lower end PL player (which you could argue he is but I actually think he stands out as better than that now and would improve the defences of many top half clubs including Liverpool, Arsenal etc.).


I didn’t say another club would have come in. I said either they would or that we would keep him. That one of those 2 scenarios would occur. McCabe told us we no longer had the need to sell our best young players and for £2million it was pretty much guaranteed we wouldn’t get a player anywhere near as good/ influential to our team. So yeah, I remain critical of that deal (but still not as critical as I am of the Walker deal).


But all of these deals are really cited not as a stick to beat the club with but as a warning that what some perceive as “good business” at the time of sale, look worse business in terms of the sold player going on to become valued far higher than the sum they were sold for. That’s why it’s important Brooks gets a decent number of games at this level under his belt before he’s sold, so he goes for a sum comparable to Lookman/ Burke, not a sum comparable to a Kyle Walker, Mason Holgate etc.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Any who've gone for big fees and haven't pulled up any trees or are they all successes?

Jacob Mellis

Jordan Slew

Lee Morris

Michael Tonge- to some extent.



But that’s about £6-7 million generated combined. You could argue we stiffed ourselves out of that on Walker alone by not keeping him for another season.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Whatever the offer is, obviously... because "Nobody else would offer any more". If nobody bids for your player aside from a few luck-chancing punts, is the player only worth what was offered? You'd think so reading posts from a few on this forum, but obviously not, it's just that no team was prepared to pay what they are worth. On another day, another team might have had no problem matching the sale price.

Well, as I said it’s all subjective and less straight forward with young players where it’s a case of judging potential.

 

[BushBlade]

Why would anyone be willing to pay our price for a winger they don't want?

So specifically Adams, teams in the market for a player like him. Why only one bid?

Was it because they'd all spent the money on the asking price for wingers?

What you seem to be doing is countering a fact with what if's buts and maybe's.

My point isn't that Adams hasn't improved or isn't worth more, but at the time we sold him, no one else seemed to think he was worth more than the fee paid. Therefore not the valuations bandied about on here at the time.

I look at it like this;

McCabe and his colleagues are actually trained in several methods of valuation. They also negotiate on a professional basis regularly. He'd be a fucking useless property developer if that wasn't the case. And he's tight as a Yorkshireman. The only input he's reliant on is that of the manager and the academy staff, but mainly the manager. It's the manager who will tell KM what he thinks the value should be, based on what he sees in terms of potential etc.

Sometimes, particularly with young players, the manager gets it wrong. It's ok saying 'I thought Kyle was going to be great' but I've heard the same about Elliott Whitehouse, De Girolamo, Slew, Young MacFadz. (I even read on BM someone saying Jamie Ward would be an England player despite the fact he'd already played for Ireland). And sometimes the buying club gets it wrong too.
It's not an exact science.

So you'll always get the odd Walker, just as you'll get the odd Naughton (who has never really increased in worth from what we sold him for) and the occasional Slew (lol). Even Spurs, whose recruitment is so good they have a negative net spend over the last five years, can get it spectacularly wrong at times (Soldado, Jansen). It's just football. If valuing players was so easy, people wouldn't get it wrong at times. Not just us, Everton paid stupid money for Lookman and Arsenal paid stupid money for Oxlade-Chamberlain (even if they did end up selling him for stupid money, they've been paying his wages for several years and got little in return) and not every selling club is lucky enough to have a buying club prepared to pay well over the odds.

What I think is happening right now is that PL clubs are trying to unsettle Brooks so they can get him on the cheap. Hopefully, after his experiences at City, he'll not jump at the first offer and tell his agent to sort it out, he'll take a new contract with us and wait until someone comes in who want to play him in the first team, when he's ready to play in the PL as a regular first teamer (or until we get promoted, whichever comes first). That will allow us to get a big fee for him when he finally does go.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41483358

Apologies for bringing this back to the OP...

This news couldn’t have come at a worse time. I don’t think you’re likely to see Brooks involved for more than 5 minutes or so in either game, and in some respect as Wales are now far less likely to be in a situation where we could give him a run out while a couple of goals up, he might now get zero minutes. I’d expect Vokes potentially alongside Robson-Kanu with Woodburn the obvious person to be introduced off the bench.

 

[BushBlade]

Apologies for bringing this back to the OP...

This news couldn’t have come at a worse time. I don’t think you’re likely to see Brooks involved for more than 5 minutes or so in either game, and in some respect as Wales are now far less likely to be in a situation where we could give him a run out while a couple of goals up, he might now get zero minutes. I’d expect Vokes potentially alongside Robson-Kanu with Woodburn the obvious person to be introduced off the bench.

I don't think they'd be in that position anyway playing Georgia away and ROI at home. They're critical games. If be very surprised if they got a two goal lead in either game, with or without Bale.

 

[Barney]

Why would anyone be willing to pay our price for a winger they don't want?

So specifically Adams, teams in the market for a player like him. Why only one bid?

Was it because they'd all spent the money on the asking price for wingers?

What you seem to be doing is countering a fact with what if's buts and maybe's.

My point isn't that Adams hasn't improved or isn't worth more, but at the time we sold him, no one else seemed to think he was worth more than the fee paid. Therefore not the valuations bandied about on here at the time.

Many what, ifs and maybes are valid points at the same time.

Every transfer window, each team's demand for players in different positions changes. So different teams are bidding for players in particular positions every transfer window. Therefore, one year you might get someone offer £2m for a player, then, let's say his value stays more or less the same, another team may meet an asking price of say, £4m the following transfer window.

I hope you can see my point a bit clearer now.

 

[IOM Blade]

Apologies for bringing this back to the OP...

This news couldn’t have come at a worse time. I don’t think you’re likely to see Brooks involved for more than 5 minutes or so in either game, and in some respect as Wales are now far less likely to be in a situation where we could give him a run out while a couple of goals up, he might now get zero minutes. I’d expect Vokes potentially alongside Robson-Kanu with Woodburn the obvious person to be introduced off the bench.

Depends how he does in training. Tom Lawrence started the last two and he's not pulled up any trees for Derby this season. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he starts against Georgia. Woodburn and Brooks behind the striker would be good to see.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Depends how he does in training. Tom Lawrence started the last two and he's not pulled up any trees for Derby this season. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he starts against Georgia. Woodburn and Brooks behind the striker would be good to see.

Lawrence has had to wait a long time for that opportunity – he’s been in and around the squad for a while, and had bright appearances off the bench. Despite that, he probably wouldn’t have started had Allen been available last game.

I’d be genuinely amazed if he starts in Georgia. Woodburn might – and that in itself would be a gamble. Bear in mind that Coleman didn’t start Woodburn after his match-winning sub appearance in the Austria match in the following game in Moldova. If he wasn’t going to start Woodburn in that situation, I very much doubt he would throw Brooks straight in – it would be a hell of a lot of pressure to place on his shoulders.

 

[super_pig]

you've all forgotten about Ramsdale.. just thought i'd throw that in

 

[Sean Thornton]

you've all forgotten about Ramsdale.. just thought i'd throw that in

I did mention him as the bloke you'd all forgot. But he's not a winger no one wants, even if they'd pay the asking price. One day.

 

[steve26272]

it's a bit daft to reflect on prices we accepted years ago vs current values, as the market is not the same now. Yes walker was under valued when we sold him, but if citeh had bought him 2 years ago he would have been worth about £20m tops. The market is bonkers now, what did Burnley pay for Wood-£15mil??non descript prem team paying £15m for a player with no prem experience? What is Billy worth?

 

[HolmesfieldBlade]

When talking about the value of David Brooks, you absolutely cannot compare him to the likes of Blackman, DCL, Maguire or even Walker.

He’s the best young Blades player I’ve ever seen and, technically, another level to the players mentioned above (for his age).