Stats comparing Wilders 20-21 relegation team with this seasons 23-24 team

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Sheffsteel

Sheffsteel

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Think sometimes it's not about whether you're promoted/ relegated but the way you're promoted/ relegated. Think we need to address some questions.

Is this the worse top flight Sheffield United side we've ever had?
Is this the worse team to ever grace the Premier League? Do people think we will beat (as in not exceed) the Derby points total.
Heard someone on Radio Sheffield say, Hecky is here for the long term, we want him to be here at least 2 more seasons. I'm thinking.....what is wrong with Blades? It's as though we've lost all our fight, expectation and standards, so many seem happy to accept relegation without a fight. Some Blades are even saying we don't belong in the PL, so we want out, sooner the better....I shake my head in despair....it's sums up the Sheffield mentality...no ambition, cheaper the better. Think people need to consider pre-season expectation with a dose of realism and ask themselves are we over performing, under performing or doing as they expected.

People say the team was terrible under Wilder when we were relegated but but I'm sure we were more competitive during the lock down season. We all have opinions but I always think it's best to consider and compare performance stats for the Wilder relegation compared to this season team with this seasons Hecky team.

Heckys United in 2023-24
H Palace L0-1 possession 32% shots 8 with 1 on target, corners 5 XG 0.42 Palace possession 68% shots 24 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 2.28
A Forest L1-2 possession 50% shots 7 with 3 on target, corners 7 XG 0.37 Forest possession 50% shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 6 XG 1.37
H Man C L1-2 possession 20% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 1 XG 0.76 Man City possession 80%, shots 30 with 9 on target, corners 12 XG 3.85
H Everton D2-2 possession 45% shots 13 with 8 on target, corners 4 XG 1.57 Everton possession 55%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6 XG 2.74
A Spurs L1-2 possession 30% shots 7 with 5 on target, corners 2 XG 0.79 Spurs possession 70%, shots 28 and 10 on target, corners 15 XG 2.16
H Newcastle L0-8 possession 42% shots 9 with 1 on target, corners2 XG 0.58 Newcastle possession 58%, shots 22 with 15 on target, corners 6 XG 5.11
A West Ham L0-2 possession 47%, shots 16 with 2 on target, corners 4 XG 0.91. West Ham possession 53%, shots 20 and 9 on target, corners 7 XG 3.2

Wilders United in 2020-21
H Wolves L0-2 possession 55% shots 9 with 2 on target, corners 12 XG 0.95 Wolves possession 45% shots 11 with 4 on target, corners 5 XG 1.61
A Aston V L0-1 possession 28% shots 4 with 1 on target, corners 4 XG 0.85 Aston V possession 72% shots 18 with 2 on target, corners 10 XG 0.81
H Leeds L0-1 possession 36% shots 14 with 4 on target, corners 5.XG 1.53 Leeds possession 65%, shots 17 with 9 on target, corners 7 XG 1.47
A Arsenal L1-2 possession 35% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 4. XG 0.14 Arsenal possession 65%, shots 6 with 5 on target, corners 2 XG 0.67
H Fulham D1-1 possession 41% shots 10 with 6 on target, corners 2. XG 1.66 Fulham possession 59%, shots 15 with 6 on target, corners 5 XG 1.36
A Liverpool L1-2 possession 38% shots 13 with 2 on target, corners 3 XG 1.4 Liverpool possession 62% shots 17 with 5 on target, corners 7 XG 2.4
H Man C L0-1 possession 35% shots 3 with 1 on target, corners 2 XG 0.69 Man City possession 65%, shots 16 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 1.9

After 7 games both teams were bottom of the league on 1 point (exactly the same start)

Heckys record after 7 matches average possession 38%, shots 9 with 3 on target, corners 4 Opposition possession 62%, shots 22 with 9 on target, corners 8
Wilders record after 7 matches average possession 38%, shots 8 with 3 on target, corners 5. Opposition possession 62%, shots 14 with 6 on target, corners 6

After 7 matches possession stats are exactly the same averaging 38%, so those that say, at least we kept better possession under Hecky, might have been the case n the 1st season but in the Wilder relegation season it was quite a low 38% in the early matches.

Attacking stats are also almost identical, in fact the Hecky team are currently averaging 1 extra shot each game however the Hecky defensive stats are considerably worse, to be letting the opposition have 22 shots at goal every match means we're always likely to concede several goals. Makes you think defensive midfield must be poor if the opposite always seems to be able to manage a shot. The in-game stats can be misleading though, a more accurate way of judging whether a game was competitive and which team deserved to win is shown in the XG (expected goals) stats.

Under Hecky our XG show that we've deserved to lose every match this season, so those that say we should have beat Man City and Spurs are wearing bias red and white coloured spectacles. Thought the Everton match was close. We could have won in the last minute but the Everton fans think they were the better team and deserved to win, the XG backs this up.

Where as under Wilder the XG showed that we were slightly better than Villa, Leeds and Fulham, so based on unbias facts possibly deserved to be on 9 points after 7 games, altho maybe draws would have been fair in these match too.

The average for us scoring, XG under Hecky 0.77 compared to Wilder us scoring XG average of 1.03 goals
The average for the opposition scoring, XG against us under Hecky is 2.96 goals compared to Wilder XG of conceding goals the opposition 1.46.

Conclusion
The Wilder team might not have had many shots (currently 1 less than the Hecky team) but they tended to be better/ clearer chances.
However the big concern is the defence, with the Wilder relegation team the defence was competitive, we gave up chances but it was't a ridiculous amount of chances.
Where as under Hecky the opposition are averaging 22 shots with 9 on target and based on chance quality we're expected to concede 3 goals every match.

So based on results we're currently exactly the same as the Wilder relegation team....1 point after 7 games
but based on performance and competitiveness over the 1st 7 matches, this team is currently far weaker (less competitive) than the Wilder relegation team.
 
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Yeah, the problem with using xG for such a small sample size is that...it's not particularly accurate.

Take the Everton game. Their xG was higher than ours mainly because the first goal was a close range header from Doucoure (saved) and then his tap-in from the rebound. Both of those attempts counted towards Everton's xG, but they couldn't both have gone in.

You might also get a situation where a player is six yards out, goal gaping...and decides to try and pass it to a teammate. It's cut out and cleared. That wouldn't even be counted towards xG, but it's an excellent chance.

It's not really worth bothering looking at it until you've played a decent number of games. Looking at the xG for individual games is basically pointless because of quirks like this.
 
Well that's it then,I'm off down to the canal...
 
If anyone interesting in comparing visually:
Left = 2023 first 7 games, Right = 2020 first 7 games

Chances created (42 vs. 48):

1696285375770.png

Touches:

1696285568170.png

Chances created conceded:

1696285638781.png
 
Proper Blade said:
Yeah, the problem with using xG for such a small sample size is that...it's not particularly accurate.

Take the Everton game. Their xG was higher than ours mainly because the first goal was a close range header from Doucoure (saved) and then his tap-in from the rebound. Both of those attempts counted towards Everton's xG, but they couldn't both have gone in.

You might also get a situation where a player is six yards out, goal gaping...and decides to try and pass it to a teammate. It's cut out and cleared. That wouldn't even be counted towards xG, but it's an excellent chance.

It's not really worth bothering looking at it until you've played a decent number of games. Looking at the xG for individual games is basically pointless because of quirks like this.
Click to expand...
Why does that second example not count towards xg?
 
People say hecky lost his two best players deffo one at leas in Ndiaye and berge

Well wilder lost Dean Henderson and JOC

We were much more competetive the wilder season and could have easily had won 3/4 out of the first 10 we were very unlucky but them are the breaks that went our way the year before

A few matches stick out in my mind i remember watching us play well at Anfield amongst a few









 
Sound. Any stats, XG and heat maps for Bassett's side in 90/91? Now they were proper wank, terrible start they had, probably worst of the lot.
 
Proper Blade said:
Yeah, the problem with using xG for such a small sample size is that...it's not particularly accurate.

Take the Everton game. Their xG was higher than ours mainly because the first goal was a close range header from Doucoure (saved) and then his tap-in from the rebound. Both of those attempts counted towards Everton's xG, but they couldn't both have gone in.

You might also get a situation where a player is six yards out, goal gaping...and decides to try and pass it to a teammate. It's cut out and cleared. That wouldn't even be counted towards xG, but it's an excellent chance.

It's not really worth bothering looking at it until you've played a decent number of games. Looking at the xG for individual games is basically pointless because of quirks like this.
Click to expand...

Excellent point....I've heard about these types of flaws.....better than nothing though and offers food for thought.

Before this we used to put a big onus on the possession stats.....then you realised that there are clubs like Swansea who just keep possession for the sake of keeping possession and don't go anywhere with it.

Then there's the shots and especially shots on target stat. Last season for the last 20-30 minutes we used to often defend deep, putting loads of men on the edge of our box inviting pressure. The stats might show the opposition had quite a few shots on target but they all tended to be from distance from well outside the box.
Wes would generally have little to do apart from easy saves.

Actually last season our in game stats never looked that good but our XG was always pretty impressive, always better than our opponents.
We didn't attack much and didn't have that many shots but always seems to create excellent clear cut chances.
Where as the opposition had plenty of attacks and shots against us but nothing ever clear cut. Our defence was overworked but Wes often had little to do.
 
Greg. said:
If anyone interesting in comparing visually:
Left = 2023 first 7 games, Right = 2020 first 7 games

Chances created (42 vs. 48):

View attachment 172331

Touches:

View attachment 172332

Chances created conceded:

View attachment 172333
Click to expand...
The heat map is interesting.

Firstly the map is, kind of upside down, I was thinking we seem to do loads of attacking, then realised the the attack areas is at the bottom.

Hecky heatmap
This shows there's hardly any action from us down the left wing, we seem to only attack down the right wing.
Also very little possession in the centre circle area.
Loads of action in defence especially right sided defence.

Wilder heatmap
Shows loads of possession attacking down both our left and right wings, not much in the central areas of attack though.
More possession compared to Hecky's team in the centre circle area.
Not much possession in deep defence especially on the right hand side.
 
raimond said:
Sound. Any stats, XG and heat maps for Bassett's side in 90/91? Now they were proper wank, terrible start they had, probably worst of the lot.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure that they were worse. The 1990 side had 4 points from the first 16 games before their first win. Wilder’s side had 2 points from 17 games before their first win. The current side has 1 point from 7 (first win pending).
 

Geordie Blade said:
I’m not sure that they were worse. The 1990 side had 4 points from the first 16 games before their first win. Wilder’s side had 2 points from 17 games before their first win. The current side has 1 point from 7 (first win pending).
Click to expand...
One was being somewhat tongue in cheek mate and pointing out that they stayed up.
 
Ultimately, whether you get hammered every game or lose 1-0 with 90% possession, the end result is the same. Neither team was/is really competitive. Analysing the level of shitness seems a bit academic.

Having said that, the context is important. Wilder was coming off a successful season, had been backed by the Prince and had a stable squad.

Meanwhile, Hecky’s had arguably his best players sold last minute. A load of players from abroad with no experience of the league have come in. There’s also been all sorts of speculation regarding the sale of the club and United’s financial situation off the pitch.

So, I do understand why people are giving Hecky a lot of leeway and I think it’s deserved.

Having said that, I don’t think all of that means Hecky is beyond any criticism.

For me, there’s no excuses for the shocking defensive lapses we’ve shown. There’s also no excuse for the complete inability to keep possession, or lumping it forward to no one and just inviting the other team to attack again. That’s basic stuff that can’t just be dismissed as the other sides being better.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Think sometimes it's not about whether you're promoted/ relegated but the way you're promoted/ relegated. Think we need to address some questions.

Is this the worse top flight Sheffield United side we've ever had?
Is this the worse team to ever grace the Premier League? Do people think we will beat (as in not exceed) the Derby points total.
Heard someone on Radio Sheffield say, Hecky is here for the long term, we want him to be here at least 2 more seasons. I'm thinking.....what is wrong with Blades? It's as though we've lost all our fight, expectation and standards, so many seem happy to accept relegation without a fight. Some Blades are even saying we don't belong in the PL, so we want out, sooner the better....I shake my head in despair....it's sums up the Sheffield mentality...no ambition, cheaper the better. Think people need to consider pre-season expectation with a dose of realism and ask themselves are we over performing, under performing or doing as they expected.

People say the team was terrible under Wilder when we were relegated but but I'm sure we were more competitive during the lock down season. We all have opinions but I always think it's best to consider and compare performance stats for the Wilder relegation compared to this season team with this seasons Hecky team.

Heckys United in 2023-24
H Palace L0-1 possession 32% shots 8 with 1 on target, corners 5 XG 0.42 Palace possession 68% shots 24 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 2.28
A Forest L1-2 possession 50% shots 7 with 3 on target, corners 7 XG 0.37 Forest possession 50% shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 6 XG 1.37
H Man C L1-2 possession 20% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 1 XG 0.76 Man City possession 80%, shots 30 with 9 on target, corners 12 XG 3.85
H Everton D2-2 possession 45% shots 13 with 8 on target, corners 4 XG 1.57 Everton possession 55%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6 XG 2.74
A Spurs L1-2 possession 30% shots 7 with 5 on target, corners 2 XG 0.79 Spurs possession 70%, shots 28 and 10 on target, corners 15 XG 2.16
H Newcastle L0-8 possession 42% shots 9 with 1 on target, corners2 XG 0.58 Newcastle possession 58%, shots 22 with 15 on target, corners 6 XG 5.11
A West Ham L0-2 possession 47%, shots 16 with 2 on target, corners 4 XG 0.91. West Ham possession 53%, shots 20 and 9 on target, corners 7 XG 3.2

Wilders United in 2020-21
H Wolves L0-2 possession 55% shots 9 with 2 on target, corners 12 XG 0.95 Wolves possession 45% shots 11 with 4 on target, corners 5 XG 1.61
A Aston V L0-1 possession 28% shots 4 with 1 on target, corners 4 XG 0.85 Aston V possession 72% shots 18 with 2 on target, corners 10 XG 0.81
H Leeds L0-1 possession 36% shots 14 with 4 on target, corners 5.XG 1.53 Leeds possession 65%, shots 17 with 9 on target, corners 7 XG 1.47
A Arsenal L1-2 possession 35% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 4. XG 0.14 Arsenal possession 65%, shots 6 with 5 on target, corners 2 XG 0.67
H Fulham D1-1 possession 41% shots 10 with 6 on target, corners 2. XG 1.66 Fulham possession 59%, shots 15 with 6 on target, corners 5 XG 1.36
A Liverpool L1-2 possession 38% shots 13 with 2 on target, corners 3 XG 1.4 Liverpool possession 62% shots 17 with 5 on target, corners 7 XG 2.4
H Man C L0-1 possession 35% shots 3 with 1 on target, corners 2 XG 0.69 Man City possession 65%, shots 16 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 1.9

After 7 games both teams were bottom of the league on 1 point (exactly the same start)

Heckys record after 7 matches average possession 38%, shots 9 with 3 on target, corners 4 Opposition possession 62%, shots 22 with 9 on target, corners 8
Wilders record after 7 matches average possession 38%, shots 8 with 3 on target, corners 5. Opposition possession 62%, shots 14 with 6 on target, corners 6

After 7 matches possession stats are exactly the same averaging 38%, so those that say, at least we kept better possession under Hecky, might have been the case n the 1st season but in the Wilder relegation season it was quite a low 38% in the early matches.

Attacking stats are also almost identical, in fact the Hecky team are currently averaging 1 extra shot each game however the Hecky defensive stats are considerably worse, to be letting the opposition have 22 shots at goal every match means we're always likely to concede several goals. Makes you think defensive midfield must be poor if the opposite always seems to be able to manage a shot. The in-game stats can be misleading though, a more accurate way of judging whether a game was competitive and which team deserved to win is shown in the XG (expected goals) stats.

Under Hecky our XG show that we've deserved to lose every match this season, so those that say we should have beat Man City and Spurs are wearing bias red and white coloured spectacles. Thought the Everton match was close. We could have won in the last minute but the Everton fans think they were the better team and deserved to win, the XG backs this up.

Where as under Wilder the XG showed that we were slightly better than Villa, Leeds and Fulham, so based on unbias facts possibly deserved to be on 9 points after 7 games, altho maybe draws would have been fair in these match too.

The average for us scoring, XG under Hecky 0.77 compared to Wilder us scoring XG average of 1.03 goals
The average for the opposition scoring, XG against us under Hecky is 2.96 goals compared to Wilder XG of conceding goals the opposition 1.46.

Conclusion
The Wilder team might not have had many shots (currently 1 less than the Hecky team) but they tended to be better/ clearer chances.
However the big concern is the defence, with the Wilder relegation team the defence was competitive, we gave up chances but it was't a ridiculous amount of chances.
Where as under Hecky the opposition are averaging 22 shots with 9 on target and based on chance quality we're expected to concede 3 goals every match.

So based on results we're currently exactly the same as the Wilder relegation team....1 point after 7 games
but based on performance and competitiveness over the 1st 7 matches, this team is currently far weaker (less competitive) than the Wilder relegation team.
Click to expand...
I don't know what's happening to my attention span but I cannot be bothered to read interminable long threads that really don't prove or change anything.

Hecky is what we have. We have a potless owner in a money driven shit league where the officials are at best inept. Bottom line, we aren't good enough and never will be.

Let's get relegated and go back to enjoying football.
 
Stats are. Overrated, if everything went as they say we'd all make a mint at the bookies, i.e. Liverpool have never lost at home to owls, Barnsley always beat Crewe away etc
 
Think we need to remember that we lost our key player and we've got new players in (late). We need time. It was very unlikely we'd start well under those circumstances.
 
ZLB said:
No it doesn’t.
Click to expand...
Other than the Newcastle game which was worse if does to me. Not really worrying sides and easy to score against although games are relatively close there's not been one result that felt unfair to me
 
OP - nobody has ever said we should have beaten Man City.

Stop using fake news to run your anti-Hecky agenda.

Here's another stat from that season

Wilder played 28 won 4
Hecky played 10 won 3.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Think people need to consider pre-season expectation with a dose of realism and ask themselves are we over performing, under performing or doing as they expected.
Click to expand...
We're definitely doing a lot worse than my pre-season expectations. I was expecting 7-9 points by now.

Last couple of games have been lacklustre, and in the second half vs Newcastle in particular we saw players slouching disconsolately around the pitch not looking remotely arsed how many more they conceded in a way unseen since the Adkins season.

For me Hecky should stay on regardless of results, but not regardless of performances. All I really want from any Blades side is a bit of fight and belief, and if those qualities don't come back sharpish he's in serious trouble.
 
The problem for me is that we didn’t sign Doyle , he was an upgrade on Norwood. He had energy, drive , protected the back 3 , could pass and get us forward .

We have Souza instead who is non of the above . We also have a regressing Norwood (not having a pop as he’s been utterly fantastic but time catches up) so we don’t have a playmaker who can do the things I have said Doyle does /did

We have our skilful players up the pitch with nothing to protect the back 3 as they and Souza get walked through , hence the ridiculous amount of shots and chances created by the opposition.

Hecky has to sort it , if he persists with Souza then he needs someone mobile and skilful at the side of him

It’s a mess
 

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