Stadium Development

[The Fox]

Regarding stadium development I was surprised to learn that in 1996 the stadium of light build cost was £24m ( including the extension) .
The extension to the stand at anfield a few years ago cost £80m . Fulham new stand in excess of £100m
It's astonishing how costs have escalated .
Can't imagine how much a new kop or south stand extension would cost but on the basis of more seating alone it's prohibitive.
For clubs like us who can't sell 60k tickets at £100 it doesn't add up.
The only way is to incorporate other commercial development into the plan , possible but meaning a major rebuild and restricted attendence.
It's got to be addressed at some stage but it's not going to be easy .

 

[nopigfansintown]

Some interesting insights have come out of recent McCabe interviews:

Development work done under McCabe was done in spite of unappealing ROI calculations. If ROI was the primary driver (deal breaker/deal breaker) the stands wouldn't have been built.

The South Stand was the next target for development. He draws comparison with the redeveloped Anfield Main Stand, which was developed without closing the existing stand. This maybe shows us the likely way forward?

McCabe claims that Pace/ALK capital would've developed the ground by now. Maybe this was in the contract for the proposed sale, who knows?

 

[Sheffsteel]

Regarding stadium development I was surprised to learn that in 1996 the stadium of light build cost was £24m ( including the extension) .
The extension to the stand at anfield a few years ago cost £80m . Fulham new stand in excess of £100m
It's astonishing how costs have escalated .
Can't imagine how much a new kop or south stand extension would cost but on the basis of more seating alone it's prohibitive.
For clubs like us who can't sell 60k tickets at £100 it doesn't add up.
The only way is to incorporate other commercial development into the plan , possible but meaning a major rebuild and restricted attendence.
It's got to be addressed at some stage but it's not going to be easy .

Agree there's no obvious solution either.

The worse stand and only stand not fit for this century is the Kop
but the return on investment would seem to be really poor......
if our new owner was a billionaire with an ego and more money than sense then the Kop might be done
but doubt any cool thinking business investors would agree to a vanity project.
The only realistic improvements will be removal of the posts and building a roof structure to put some of the outside areas, like the fanzone, under cover protected from the elements.

There is a much stronger argument to put a new tier on top of the South stand
not so much because we need an extra 6K seats but it's more to do with raising the profile of the club regards
creating fancy VIP areas to impress people with money and influence, a fancy boardroom to impress guests of the chairman, fancy changing rooms to impress players, fancy media centre to impress journalists.

Also there should be a far higher return on investment....as people will pay big money for fancy VIP/ executive box seats.
However I'm not sure if there's a big market of wealthy people in Sheffield prepared to pay £500 per match.

As you say the way forward might be to incorporate other revenue streams like student flats, shops, office space etc.
Altho with the fashion to work from home dont think office space/ conference facilities are in demand anymore.

 

[The Fox]

Some interesting insights have come out of recent McCabe interviews:

Development work done under McCabe was done in spite of unappealing ROI calculations. If ROI was the primary driver (deal breaker/deal breaker) the stands wouldn't have been built.

The South Stand was the next target for development. He draws comparison with the redeveloped Anfield Main Stand, which was developed without closing the existing stand. This maybe shows us the likely way forward?

McCabe claims that Pace/ALK capital would've developed the ground by now. Maybe this was in the contract for the proposed sale, who knows?

I've read similar

If the ROI didn't stack up then it certainly wouldn't now which is why I think it needs a different approach .
He may well have completed the development by now but at what cost and debt , effect on the club , guess we'll never know .

 

[SRA76]

But you're sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring facts....which is very much pig behaviour.
So with respect I'll highlight a few facts......instead of denying them.....how about quoting facts to back up your opinion.

You say Wednesday are far bigger than us.....when the facts prove this in incorrect.

The reality is that Wednesday were slightly bigger than us during the 20th century (over 100 years of history)
and United are slightly bigger than Wednesday on just about every stat during the 21st century (present day).
History does matter......so of course overall, Wednesday are slightly the bigger club...but it's closer than many think..hence why the rivalry is so strong.....neither club can dominate the other for too long...so there's regular cycles.

Here are a few big club historical facts to compare...feel free to add any others
Seasons in the top flight: United 63 seasons SWFC 66 seasons:
Seasons in 2nd tier: United 47 seasons SWFC 45 seasons
Seasons in 3rd tier: United 11 seasons SWFC 11 seasons
Consecutive seasons in the top flight: United 37 seasons SWFC 16 seasons
Major titles: United (5) 1 title and 4 FA cups SWFC (7) 4 titles and 3 FA cups
Seasons in Europe: United 0 seasons SWFC 3 seasons
Historical average attendance United 19,471 SWFC 21,516
Highest ever attendance United 68,287 SWFC 72, 841
Lowest post war attendance United 6,647 SWFC 6,905
Head to head record in league United won 43 SWFC won 36........with 39 draws

This century United edge SWFC on average attendances and overall league record.
However United are far out in front regards finances, record transfer purchases and sales, the Academy set up, even the women's team. Arguably even the stadium has moved ahead.....yes Hillsboro is still an iconic stadium but historical/ antiquity is the overriding word. For example their north stand was built in 1960 and the concourse areas are incredibly small and old fashioned. Last time I went.....when you were taking a piss...it was open to the elements and you could see the terraces houses at the back of the stand.

Some fair points. Some daft ens. Stats n figures can always be altered to fit the narrative. Pigs will have their own versions of course. All I’m saying is nobody can knock there support. If they did they are seriously deluded. The very word we like to throw at them at every opportunity. I don’t know 1 blade in my very large circle what would ever praise them but I also don’t know 1 who would knock there support because like it or lump it it can’t be knocked. Simple. It’s not a problem in grand scheme of things lol

 

[Sheffsteel]

Some fair points. Some daft ens. Stats n figures can always be altered to fit the narrative. Pigs will have their own versions of course. All I’m saying is nobody can knock there support. If they did they are seriously deluded. The very word we like to throw at them at every opportunity. I don’t know 1 blade in my very large circle what would ever praise them but I also don’t know 1 who would knock there support because like it or lump it it can’t be knocked. Simple. It’s not a problem in grand scheme of things lol

We seem to have found an agreement.......

Agree stats can be manipulated to prove almost everything but that was my point really....almost any stat you can think of....the clubs are surprisingly close. I suppose the main stat that's impressive for SWFC is that they've won the league 4 times, more than Leeds United, so they are officially the most successful club in Yorkshire based on domestic honours.

Also no one can deny they have good support but it's not quite as good as they make out.
Their impressive examples of great support always seem to be one-off matches.

Blades find it difficult to big up their own club.....as we're a negative fanbase
but 2 seasons ago we practically sold out (apart from restricted view) so many home matches averaging 28,746 in the 2nd tier.
It would have been higher but SAG closed down the back rows on the Kop restricting capacity down to 30,200.

The last time SWFC beat 28,746 in the 2nd tier was in 1952, that's 73 years ago.
SWFC have a bigger stadium but even if they were top of the league in the Championship there's no way they'd have an average over 29K.

 

[JJBlade]

Despite my inbuilt aversion to the sty and my love of the Lane , in what respect is our stadium better ?
We all acknowledge that our kop has a crap rake , has 3 viewblocking posts , gives no knee-room & shit catering.
When you look at our kop from the Lane end , I have never understood why we had to have that 3rd viewblocking post which is only a short distance in from the post at the R-hand end.
Really bad design is our kop.
The sty's kop has only 2 viewblocking posts and the upper half has a much increased rake giving a better view - despite having a cramped footprint , its conversion to seating was done way better than ours.
Their north & south stands are both bigger with more accessible catering.
Yes the Leppings Lane end is the site of a major disaster.
I fully expect to get pelters for this post but as a kop ST holder , and being objective , i wish our kop was as good as theirs.

The Taylor report ordered that stadiums be all seater, and most clubs demolished entire stands and built new.
Not in Sheffield though,
SWFC chucked some seats in and then moaned to the FA that they should pay for it.

We knocked the roof off which would have taken a bloke with a machine about seven minutes because it was practically falling down anyway, we then stood on the kop without a roof for the last game of the season against Norwich, and hey presto 12 weeks later we'd got a new roof chucked up, and held up by some pillars, and some seats put in.

The biggest difference now is that we wouldn't have been able to use the kop like we did that day against Norwich, Sheffield City Council wouldn't have let us after receiving police advice that the non existent roof might fall down and injure somebody

 

[Bladeloyal]

Despite my inbuilt aversion to the sty and my love of the Lane , in what respect is our stadium better ?
We all acknowledge that our kop has a crap rake , has 3 viewblocking posts , gives no knee-room & shit catering.
When you look at our kop from the Lane end , I have never understood why we had to have that 3rd viewblocking post which is only a short distance in from the post at the R-hand end.
Really bad design is our kop.
The sty's kop has only 2 viewblocking posts and the upper half has a much increased rake giving a better view - despite having a cramped footprint , its conversion to seating was done way better than ours.
Their north & south stands are both bigger with more accessible catering.
Yes the Leppings Lane end is the site of a major disaster.
I fully expect to get pelters for this post but as a kop ST holder , and being objective , i wish our kop was as good as theirs.

Think you must be on a wind up .

 

[petcharlie]

It's one of the reasons I very rarely go now. I'm the sort of person who ideally would go 2 or 3 times a season, but it's just become a right old faff getting hold of tickets, so I just don't bother, unless someone I know has a spare and offers it up.

I am the same mate ,being a full time carer and ill my self I have not been able to go as often as i would like . I get when circumstances allow but now I struggle getting tickets and admit the last time i tried I gave up and can not be bothered now plus i do not have much time to mess .It puts you off .

 

[The Fox]

I guess we're victims of circumstances with ground development.
-You have the traditional "big" clubs . Those in the top flight who know they can attract over 50k with almost guaranteed income and high paying supporters

• Those lucky enough to be given new stadiums ,man city and west ham .
• Those who can build a smart new 10 to 12k stadium that's cheap enough and big enough , Rotherham, Donny
• Then there's the clubs stuck in the middle who need a circa 35k to 40k capacity who aren't perennial top flight clubs . Us , S6 , Leeds for example.

There aren't many of us stuck in that position in fact other than the 3 mentioned were probably the only ones with our existing ground ( Norwich and West Brom at a push)

 

[S64 Blade]

can never understand why the club dont sell restricted view tickets at a tenner whos gonna pay 30/40 quid to sit behind a pillar or a wall

You’re just bringing logic into things now!

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

There is a much stronger argument to put a new tier on top of the South stand
not so much because we need an extra 6K seats but it's more to do with raising the profile of the club regards
creating fancy VIP areas to impress people with money and influence, a fancy boardroom to impress guests of the chairman, fancy changing rooms to impress players, fancy media centre to impress journalists.

I think this is where this argument falls down. Any VIP people or anybody you might want to impress, such as players or clients, while impressed with facilities in the South, are immediately going to feel a sense of disappointment when they look out from the vip box or restaurant and clap eyes on the Kop.

It screams 3rd rate. You step out at Anfield, Chelsea, City or Spurs and you think wow.

Step out at Bramall Lane, look at the Kop and it’s meh.

I know we can’t compete stadium wise with those clubs but there’s other impressive stadiums all over the place what look great on the inside. Forest, Bristol City, Wolves, West Brom for example which should be within our range.

Granted I’ve not been to some of those for years but on the telly at least they all look visually impressive and let’s face it, if you’re a rare visitor or potential investor what will impress you is what the stadium looks like overall, not if the bogs on the Kop are crap.

That’s why I think the Kop is a priority. Do that first and straight away, the overall impression of the stadium increases 100 per cent. It doesn’t have to cost tens of millions but doing the basics such as post removal and covered concourses not only makes a massive difference to the impression everybody gets of Sheffield United, but it rewards if only a little bit some of the clubs most loyal fans. Unobstructed views and better facilities.

Get the Kop sorted first, it’s a win-win for everbody.

 

[S64 Blade]

I guess we're victims of circumstances with ground development.
-You have the traditional "big" clubs . Those in the top flight who know they can attract over 50k with almost guaranteed income and high paying supporters

• Those lucky enough to be given new stadiums ,man city and west ham .
• Those who can build a smart new 10 to 12k stadium that's cheap enough and big enough , Rotherham, Donny
• Then there's the clubs stuck in the middle who need a circa 35k to 40k capacity who aren't perennial top flight clubs . Us , S6 , Leeds for example.

There aren't many of us stuck in that position in fact other than the 3 mentioned were probably the only ones with our existing ground ( Norwich and West Brom at a push)

Forest are probably the other one.

 

[S64 Blade]

I think this is where this argument falls down. Any VIP people or anybody you might want to impress, such as players or clients, while impressed with facilities in the South, are immediately going to feel a sense of disappointment when they look out from the vip box or restaurant and clap eyes on the Kop.

It screams 3rd rate. You step out at Anfield, Chelsea, City or Spurs and you think wow.

Step out at Bramall Lane, look at the Kop and it’s meh.

I know we can’t compete stadium wise with those clubs but there’s other impressive stadiums all over the place what look great on the inside. Forest, Bristol City, Wolves, West Brom for example which should be within our range.

Granted I’ve not been to some of those for years but on the telly at least they all look visually impressive and let’s face it, if you’re a rare visitor or potential investor what will impress you is what the stadium looks like overall, not if the bogs on the Kop are crap.

That’s why I think the Kop is a priority. Do that first and straight away, the overall impression of the stadium increases 100 per cent. It doesn’t have to cost tens of millions but doing the basics such as post removal and covered concourses not only makes a massive difference to the impression everybody gets of Sheffield United, but it rewards if only a little bit some of the clubs most loyal fans. Unobstructed views and better facilities.

Get the Kop sorted first, it’s a win-win for everbody.

There’s nothing stopping us having executive boxes in the back of the Kop either, in theory.

 

[The Fox]

There’s nothing stopping us having executive boxes in the back of the Kop either, in theory.

Just dont stand up to watch the match in them

 

[ColinHill]

There’s nothing stopping us having executive boxes in the back of the Kop either, in theory.

Two tiered kop end ala Wolves, Forest, Walsall, Blackburn, Villa, new one at Anfield. Plenty of spaces for executive boxes and entertaining. Visually impressive. Built to link with extension to the South Stand. Could be set up to cater for wheelchair / disabilities better (better than stick them at the front of John St open to all elements and a ball in the mush). Just need someone who is willing to pay for it.....

 

[S64 Blade]

Two tiered kop end ala Wolves, Forest, Walsall, Blackburn, Villa, new one at Anfield. Plenty of spaces for executive boxes and entertaining. Visually impressive. Built to link with extension to the South Stand. Could be set up to cater for wheelchair / disabilities better (better than stick them at the front of John St open to all elements and a ball in the mush). Just need someone who is willing to pay for it.....

Could just as easily be a large single tier with executive boxes at the back, too.

It’d need a proper rebuild, either way.

 

[haich1889]

Surely the time to redevelop the stadium is when crowds are at their lowest. That way, you upset the fewest punters.

Like during covid??

 

[ColinHill]

Could just as easily be a large single tier with executive boxes at the back, too.

It’d need a proper rebuild, either way.

Of course it could, not sure the corporates would want that kind of view though, much better in the middle

 

[haich1889]

I can't think of another City centre football club with so much room to expand into. Even the existing kop could be used as the foundations of a new 2 tier.

Getting greedy now, but is it true we own John Street & the houses on it???

 

[Snowflake]

I can't think of another City centre football club with so much room to expand into. Even the existing kop could be used as the foundations of a new 2 tier.

Getting greedy now, but is it true we own John Street & the houses on it???

Houses maybe, but not the public highway.

 

[S64 Blade]

Of course it could, not sure the corporates would want that kind of view though, much better in the middle

True. It is done elsewhere, but I guess it’s more of a last resort option. But, you could argue it is at the Lane, given we already have corporate/exec options on either side (albeit minimal on the South).

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

We're gonna have to do it one day.....timing on things like this is everything, but you can only kick the can down the road for so long.

Hopefully gets kicked longer. I don't feel the personal cost / reward is anywhere near at the moment.

 

[NuddysGloves]

can never understand why the club dont sell restricted view tickets at a tenner whos gonna pay 30/40 quid to sit behind a pillar or a wall

If they did that I bet all those tickets would sell first and there still wouldn't be anybody sat in those seats.

 

[ColinHill]

True. It is done elsewhere, but I guess it’s more of a last resort option. But, you could argue it is at the Lane, given we already have corporate/exec options on either side (albeit minimal on the South).

If i was to play fantasy with the ground (but kind of realistically) id have two tiered shoreham st end with corporate in between both tiers, same on south. BL end id make the first five row all corporate ( I guess to around about the goal from JS end) and convert some of the BL business centre into a hosting area.

That said all pie in sky etc etc, but would give plenty of money generating opps and not minimise on 'normal' fans

 

[HarryHaslam]

I can't think of another City centre football club with so much room to expand into. Even the existing kop could be used as the foundations of a new 2 tier.

Getting greedy now, but is it true we own John Street & the houses on it???

Not sure about the houses but McCabe used to own the warehouse which was once a kids play area, then an indoor trampoline place amongst other things over the years but he has sold it now. Was going to be an indoor market last I heard.

 

[reedy63]

The development of the Kop and Tony Currie stand can be built without having to close anything. Build from behind these stands bags of room. you can have the prawn sandwich brigade in between bottom tier and top tier. they will pay no matter what the cost is. However do not hold your breath. nothing is going to happen until we have very rich owners and a team that can stay in the premier league. you would need a billion quid in order to pay for it.

 

[The Fox]

you would need a billion quid in order to pay for it.

Given recent costs ot other clubs it's probably in the region of £150m possibly more .
For what's essentially a loss making enterprise without capacity issues that's quite an undertaking .
I'd like a swanky ground , but quite like it as it is too.
Remember a citeh poster once calling it a mini colleseum, quite liked that .

 

[reedy63]

what are you on about nowt to do with Bramall Lane developments £150m ???

 

[Sean Thornton]

Hopefully gets kicked longer. I don't feel the personal cost / reward is anywhere near at the moment.

Nah. We need a 45k stadium. If we change the ticketing system thousands more - and their mates - will be clamouring for tickets………