Should we scrap the secret of our success and start again?

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Sheffsteel

Sheffsteel

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Over the past few seasons the big question has been how can previously ordinary players go away to PL clubs last season and out play them (remember Spurs away last season). Lets not forget that Basham was ordinary even at league 1 level....so how come last season he played like Frans Beckenbauer at a much higher level?

The secret of our success is the overlapping centre back system.
Jack O’Connell isn‘t the greatest centre back but he’s a very capable left back with great crossing ability.
It‘s a brilliant idea to play O’Connell in a back 3...with Egan covering his mistakes....then encourage O’Conell to work as a team with Enda.
They both defend as a pair and they also attack down the wing as a pair. So it’s easy for Enda....when he’s in difficulty he always has O’Connell available to pass to.

Chris Basham wasn’t even that good as a centre back in league 1 but he also has Egan next to him covering his mistakes.
However Basham is Mr Versatile, he can comfortably play right back and midfield...he has the best engine...best stamina at the club.
So he’s asked to forge a partnership with Baldock....so they attack as a pair and defend as a pair.
This makes Baldock’s job much easier because when he’s in difficult he often has Bashan available to pass to.
Also Basham is encouraged to race forward totally unmarked in the opposition penalty area.

Basically the overlapping centre system was Taylor made for O’Connell and Basham.....it brings out all their strengths and hides away all their weaknesses.
Reasons for our poor season are probably complacency, a shorter Summer pre-season preparation time and then a loss of confidence.

But the underlying reason for this seasons failure is no plan B.......this isn’t a secret....we were the same in league 1 and the Championship,
Take away Duffy and we lacked creativity...We became too reliant on our legendary over load the wings match winning tactic.

The O’Connell- Stevens partnership has been built over several seasons....the Basham-Baldock partnership has been built over several seasons.
Take away O’Connell away and Stevens becomes ordinary again. Take away Basham away and Baldock becomes ordinary again.

So the question is do we keep O’Connell and Basham and return back to Knills highly successful over lapping centre back tactic? or should we scrap it and start with a new formation. My only concern is that on an individual level don’t think many of our players are that good....probably average Championship standard at best.

Team work where everyone is so well drilled knowing their jobs will often beat teams consisting of higher quality individuals (we saw that last season).
I think we need to pick Knills brain and learn from Wilders success.....then pass that knowledge to the new manager to use
The new manager need to adopt Knills tried and tested tactic but work on more plan B’s....like attacking from midfield.

Basically as the song goes we shouldn’t need to “rip it up and start again”.
 
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I don’t know if we got worked out or a lot of factors consipired against us when everyone took a step back. Or both

But The simple fact is there’s ZERO creativity on the squad. We may as well be called Sheffield United nil, and it’s so easy to nullify us as it currently stands. It’s Child’s play.

Without a rebuild and some new blood we are going to be way off the pace next season also. We tried playing Ben Osborn (I like him don’t get me wrong) as a number 10 yesterday and no offence but that’s an insult at championship level never mind as a PL club!!!

whatever happens fresh ideas, new blood and key players back is vital if we want to see victories next season.
 
Agree with the above - only keep it if we employ a No. 10. Also, it's only worth using this system if you're RCB and LCB are actually going to step out of defence to create the overloads further up the pitch. This season has shown that if they don't, you end up overrun in midfield, the strikers are left isolated and you invite the opposition onto you.
 
The biggest impact on the season was momentum. The quick rise up the divisions playing a new system and not being afraid of any team. We got on a roll and stayed on it a long time. Some of the players we bought added to it for a time.
McBurnie and Mousset looked like good additions and added something. Lundstram was like a new player for the first 10 games or so.
Then at first lockdown we started to slip.
We were never a fluent attacking side but with confidence and a solid defence we were doing enough.

Henderson going back. JOC's injury and transfer activity that did not bring an improvement. Couple that with a system that has now been figured out by most teams. We only play down the sides.
A manager who would not change. A manager and board relationship that was broke.

Like Icarus who flew too close to the sun. We rose quickly and confidently but lost momentum and are falling apart. Arresting the fall is the biggest challenge for the new manager. What ever system we play we need more skilful players than we have now and be more flexible with our tactics.
 
Nagima said:
Couple that with a system that has now been figured out by most teams. We only play down the sides.
A manager who would not change. A manager and board relationship that was broke.
Click to expand...

This is the interesting part.....I don’t think we were necessarily found out this season.

We played our system almost every single match for 3 years....so it’s no secret to the football world.
On the wings we always had an extra man.....O’Connell and Stevens against their right back ( 2 against 1).
Some clubs would send a right sided centre back over to support their right back....making it 2 against 2
but then we’d send Fleck over making it our 3 against their 2....with their centre back now out of position.

My view is that O’Connell and Stevens were so well drilled playing quick pass and move triangles....it’s was almost impossible for the opposition to stop the cross.

The only tactic that worked against us..was Newcastle at home last season....Birmingham and Wednesday at home the previous season....Fleetwood when we were in league 1. These clubs gave up trying to stop the cross....they let us have the ball in midfield and out on the wings.
Instead they packed their penalty area with big men. Every time we crossed...they dealt with it easily heading it away.
In all these games we had loads of attacks but never looked like scoring. Then they’d try to catch us on the break.

In packed penalty areas we needed a tricky close control Duffy type or someone who can score from outside the box.
We’ve never come close to replacing Duffy....maybe Brooks could have been that man? And we don’t even try shots from outside the area,

My view is the overlapping centre back tactic hasn’t worked because we’ve had too many injuries and had to change the defence too often.
Ampadu and Bryan just can’t do the job that O’Connell and Basham did...also they’ve not forged any understanding with Stevens and Baldock
so our 2 wing backs have now lost confidence and tend not to attack as much because they‘ve not got a centre back close by to pass to.
 
Teams know how to defend against us now. We don't attack with the same purpose as last season. But when we attack it is slow and down the sides. As you say just pack the box and clear the ball. The opposition this season have been better at exploiting how we set up. Lots of teams break though the centre where we are weak and lack covering ability. I agree about the injuries but I do think that systems and tactics get counteracted over time. The big issue going forward is our lack of a midfield
 
Other teams eventually identified the weak links in our system rather than the system itself. It took us, the fans a bit longer. Wilder clearly realised it, unlike the current stand in who doesn’t appear to have got the message.
 
Sean Thornton said:
Other teams eventually identified the weak links in our system rather than the system itself. It took us, the fans a bit longer. Wilder clearly realised it, unlike the current stand in who doesn’t appear to have got the message.
Click to expand...
The system does have a problem in that we rarely attack through the middle at any stage. If you watch other teams we are going wide too early. It's too limiting and too predictable.
 
The players were key to its success. Bash, George, JOC, Enda, Fleck and to a lesser extent Lundstram worked the system perfectly.

Bielsa tried it at Leeds and said it was impossible. It was probably only impossible because the Leeds players couldn't adapt.

It was perfect for us. Bringing other players in, Osborn, Ampadu, Robinson etc. was never going to be the answer.
 
Nagima said:
The system does have a problem in that we rarely attack through the middle at any stage. If you watch other teams we are going wide too early. It's too limiting and too predictable.
Click to expand...

But again, l’d say since lockdown at least, the midfield has been unable to do that. Their desperation to be rid either results in a back pass or a poor ball to the wing backs. Wilder doesn’t appear to have tried to sort that issue out.
 
bornablade said:
The players were key to its success. Bash, George, JOC, Enda, Fleck and to a lesser extent Lundstram worked the system perfectly.

Bielsa tried it at Leeds and said it was impossible. It was probably only impossible because the Leeds players couldn't adapt.

It was perfect for us. Bringing other players in, Osborn, Ampadu, Robinson etc. was never going to be the answer.
Click to expand...

JOC was injured. Enda’s form fell off a cliff. Lundstrams purple patch was probably about 6 games in reality. Osborn and Robinson, totally agree. If some players, 7 and 16, put in half the effort of Ampadu, they wouldn’t be getting as many pelters.

The “funny” thing about Norwood is that despite being little more than a passenger for most of the season is his swagger and pose when the odd ping works.
 
Sean Thornton said:
But again, l’d say since lockdown at least, the midfield has been unable to do that. Their desperation to be rid either results in a back pass or a poor ball to the wing backs. Wilder doesn’t appear to have tried to sort that issue out.
Click to expand...
There are so many things wrong at present it's going to be a big job to put them right. But for the present I would like Heck to at least try something different.
 
Very well written Sheff and I also dont think we were 'worked out' by other teams, more like they knew what was coming but couldn't do anything about it.

We also were so high energy and confident that we could outwork teams which meant that we were almost unstoppable at times. Often the passing was so fast and accurate it was a joy to watch. We literally took the initiative and bossed the big boys in so many games.

The system worked and suited a group of average ( with some quality) players who bought into the managers philosophy which transformed their careers and catapulted us all into the Premier League.

I've never witnessed a period of success along with exciting, attacking football in 50 years.

People will have their own views and opinions on all that's happened but I still have a great regard for Wilder and the incredible journey he took us on.
 

Sheffsteel said:
Over the past few seasons the big question has been how can previously ordinary players go away to PL clubs last season and out play them (remember Spurs away last season). Lets not forget that Basham was ordinary even at league 1 level....so how come last season he played like Frans Beckenbauer at a much higher level?

The secret of our success is the overlapping centre back system.
Jack O’Connell isn‘t the greatest centre back but he’s a very capable left back with great crossing ability.
It‘s a brilliant idea to play O’Connell in a back 3...with Egan covering his mistakes....then encourage O’Conell to work as a team with Enda.
They both defend as a pair and they also attack down the wing as a pair. So it’s easy for Enda....when he’s in difficulty he always has O’Connell available to pass to.

Chris Basham wasn’t even that good as a centre back in league 1 but he also has Egan next to him covering his mistakes.
However Basham is Mr Versatile, he can comfortably play right back and midfield...he has the best engine...best stamina at the club.
So he’s asked to forge a partnership with Baldock....so they attack as a pair and defend as a pair.
This makes Baldock’s job much easier because when he’s in difficult he often has Bashan available to pass to.
Also Basham is encouraged to race forward totally unmarked in the opposition penalty area.

Basically the overlapping centre system was Taylor made for O’Connell and Basham.....it brings out all their strengths and hides away all their weaknesses.
Reasons for our poor season are probably complacency, a shorter Summer pre-season preparation time and then a loss of confidence.

But the underlying reason for this seasons failure is no plan B.......this isn’t a secret....we were the same in league 1 and the Championship,
Take away Duffy and we lacked creativity...We became too reliant on our legendary over load the wings match winning tactic.

The O’Connell- Stevens partnership has been built over several seasons....the Basham-Baldock partnership has been built over several seasons.
Take away O’Connell away and Stevens becomes ordinary again. Take away Basham away and Baldock becomes ordinary again.

So the question is do we keep O’Connell and Basham and return back to Knills highly successful over lapping centre back tactic? or should we scrap it and start with a new formation. My only concern is that on an individual level don’t think many of our players are that good....probably average Championship standard at best.

Team work where everyone is so well drilled knowing their jobs will often beat teams consisting of higher quality individuals (we saw that last season).
I think we need to pick Knills brain and learn from Wilders success.....then pass that knowledge to the new manager to use
The new manager need to adopt Knills tried and tested tactic but work on more plan B’s....like attacking from midfield.

Basically as the song goes we shouldn’t need to “rip it up and start again”.
Click to expand...
Problem is, it ain’t no secret anymore. Our tactics and style of play were already getting figured out, to the back end of last season. Whether we had O’Connell in the side or not, Chris was very naive to think we could do exactly the same thing this season.
 
BushBlade said:
I’m going to be controversial. How about the board appoints a decent manager, or first team coach or whatever the fuck they want to call him and let him decide what formation we play in and what tactics we use?
Click to expand...
But Mester Heckingbottom says the players were brought in to play 3-5-2 and can't play any other way.

Does this twat think we're all a bunch of muppets or what? And do the players know he says this about them?
 
MalmoBlade said:
But Mester Heckingbottom says the players were brought in to play 3-5-2 and can't play any other way.

Does this twat think we're all a bunch of muppets or what? And do the players know he says this about them?
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about this season though, I’m talking about next season. After a transfer window.
 
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