Shortcomings of 5-3-2

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blades_95

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I'll start off by saying that 5-3-2 worked wonders for us in league 1, and we were right to stick with it when we were promoted. However, it's been apparent for 6 months now that we can't stick with this same formation going forward. I do think 5-3-2 is a good formation if you're one of the best teams in the division, which we're not.

The main problem with the formation is that our 3 key creative threats are the number 10 (when we use one), and the wing backs.

First issue is the number 10. We've clearly seen that when we don't play Duffy, there's no spark. No probing runs and passes, just 3 centre mids shifting the ball slowly in front of the opposition allowing them to regroup. There's no risk takers in the middle, and nobody cute enough to play the perfect pass. If we do play a number 10, they're often marked out of the game by a couple of higher quality sitting midfielders, and the opposition happily let Lundstram/Evans or the centre halves take their chance to create.

However the biggest issue for me is the wing backs. This formation leaves 2 of our main attacking threats and creators as defenders. For me it's that simple: we're expecting DEFENDERS to regularly create quality chances, play the perfect cross, perfect pass, beat a man down the line. It's asking too much at this level with the quality of the opposition, and the relative quality of our full backs. As an aside, if we play this system Freeman has to play more as he's the only wing back we have with the quality and output needed in and around the box.

Also, since teams have adjusted to our formation they limit any space in behind. I can barely recall any times we get in behind a defence with space, having men over or a man free in the box to pick out. Again, this means we need the PERFECT pass or cross to get a chance. Combine this with a slow build up, a reluctance to cross, and a lead striker who doesn't gamble enough (Clarke), and we severely limit our chances. We're now creating far fewer chances, and when we do we're relying that an average strikeforce can take the odd chance they do get.

To me, we need to get back to the basics of a mid table championship side. A back 4, get more creative players on the pitch (Fleck, Duffy, Woodburn) and play the percentages more. We need more attacking players on to do the creating, helped out by full backs, not being reliant on them. More creative players means more positive passes, runs and crosses, and leads to more chances and maybe more goals. We don't have the quality at the top of the division, so increase the quantity of what we create.

The 5-3-2 looks done to me. We're not defensively solid with it, and we're no longer the attacking threat. Time for a change.
 



The move to the flat 4 stabilised us last night. It was better.

But Boro did back off as well. You would with the game won.

It does give food for thought, even though I have always been a huge fan of 3:5:2 (or 3:4:1:2).

UTB
 
The formation got us top with Coutts. We all knew after Burton game we would slide and we have. We need him back and ASAP.

Evans isn’t a replacement for anyone and we looked so much better with him off last night.
 
The formation got us top with Coutts. We all knew after Burton game we would slide and we have. We need him back and ASAP.

Evans isn’t a replacement for anyone and we looked so much better with him off last night.
As much as I like Coutts, I don't see how it's going to help players like Clarke but the ball in the back of the net. Coutts playing last night wouldn't have allowed Clarke to score that 1 on 1 with the keeper.

Yes we will create more chances but what's the point in creating chances if you have strikers who don't put the ball in the back of the net
 
I've got to agree. He should probably try changing it because we've looked dodgy for a while now. It's not a two game knee jerk thing. It's been since Christmas really.

The problem is that our recruitment has been based around this formation. Do we have a midfield to play a 4-4-2? Can we play a 4-3-3/4-5-1 or 4-3-2-1 when we've let all our wide players go? Duffy and Woodburn aside, who can comfortably play wide or behind a lone front man? Ricky Holmes can, but we've seemingly agreed to let him go to Oxford. Nathan Thomas can but he's already gone. Ditto Brooks.
 
We lost last night due 2 set plays and that killed the game. Formation isn’t the issue. Henderson didn’t make a save last night. (All 3 shots went in).

We need to tweak formation Evans out Duffy in.
 
Can't help but think we need to consider 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 on Saturday....appreciate it's not CW's preferred formation but we look woefully inept at the moment with the opposition tearing through the middle and down each flank and we need to stop conceding stupid goals and fast....Loftus Road is a very tight and compact ground and we need to be equally as tight and compact.

Bring Stears back in to partner Egan, (who looks shaky to say the least)....JOC at LB and Bash at RB
Move Baldock up to RM with Fleck and Evans in the middle and Duffy at LM
Woodburn just behind Clarke/McGoldrick
 
Wing backs only work if you have good wing backs! Look at how vital they were for Wolves last season and how many assists and goals they provided. I think Douglas had the most assists in the league and Wolves have sold him and updgraded already which just shows how much emphasis they put on this position. Sessegnon at Fulham was just as important to them getting promotion. We don’t have anybody who is anywhere near good enough to play wing back effectively.

I also worry that we don’t have any wingers! So switching to 4-4-2 we will be very narrow and won’t have anybody decent out wide who can beat a man and get the ball in. Not sure a change in formation is the answer.
 
Great post one thing I’d pick up on is when teams attack us their wings or wide man seems to have 10 yards and plenty of time to look up and cross the ball before we can get a player to close them down. This was obvious last season and even more so the first two games this season. Players like bash seem to be spending more time chasing players back and giving away needless free kicks which we are then getting punished with. System needs changing for me
 
Great post one thing I’d pick up on is when teams attack us their wings or wide man seems to have 10 yards and plenty of time to look up and cross the ball before we can get a player to close them down. This was obvious last season and even more so the first two games this season. Players like bash seem to be spending more time chasing players back and giving away needless free kicks which we are then getting punished with. System needs changing for me

Exactly. When we attack the wing back should get forward and in effect play a 3-5-2 formation, but when we lose the ball this should become 5-3-2 with the wing backs defending. This is a big ask and needs quick, fit wingbacks to make it work. Which we don’t have.
 
I think a distinction needs to be made between 3-5-2 and 3-4-1-2.

It may seem pedantic but a midfield three of Fleck(LCM)-Evans
(CM)-Lundstram(RCM) cannot be spoken of in the same breath as Fleck(CM)-Coutts(CM)+ Duffy(AM).

These have a totally different dynamic. For one the strikers are further away in the 3-5-2 than 3-4-1-2 and that is part of the reason there is always the caveat about lack of service.

For me, before we throw the baby out with the bath water, we need to play the formation which gave us success not some bastardised version which got a win at Norwich in a grudge match but returnee no real form and sidelined our most creative midfielder.
 
We lost last night due 2 set plays and that killed the game. Formation isn’t the issue. Henderson didn’t make a save last night. (All 3 shots went in).

We need to tweak formation Evans out Duffy in.
Thought Henderson made a save after 60 seconds, just to name one. And be pedantic.
 
4-2-3-1

Henderson

Baldock
Stearman
JOC
Freeman

Fleck
Leonard

Woodburn
Duffy
(New Winger / Attacking Midfielder)

Sharp

That's how I'd go, but what do I know? I still have 100% faith in our Manager. He just needs to stop being a bit stubborn and realise that a few lads need to come out of the team for a bit (Clarke, Stevens, Lundstram, Basham). I'd really like to see Leonard get a start on Saturday. Our squad is competitive, we're just desperate for some freshness up top.
 
I think a distinction needs to be made between 3-5-2 and 3-4-1-2.

It may seem pedantic but a midfield three of Fleck(LCM)-Evans
(CM)-Lundstram(RCM) cannot be spoken of in the same breath as Fleck(CM)-Coutts(CM)+ Duffy(AM).

These have a totally different dynamic. For one the strikers are further away in the 3-5-2 than 3-4-1-2 and that is part of the reason there is always the caveat about lack of service.

For me, before we throw the baby out with the bath water, we need to play the formation which gave us success not some bastardised version which got a win at Norwich in a grudge match but returnee no real form and sidelined our most creative midfielder.

Pretty similar to what I was going to say. It feels like we've compounded the problem of missing Coutts by dropping Duffy as well. We're not defending any better with Lundstram and Evans but we have sacrificed our attacking threat. I know Boro had finished their job at that point but it's still no coincidence that once we brought on Duffy and Woodburn we spent the rest of the game camped in their half.

I'm not so concerned by our lack of budget and big signings as I am by the change of mentality. When we were doing well we did it by being brave enough to go all out for goals. We lost games for it but we won a lot more for it too.
 
I think a distinction needs to be made between 3-5-2 and 3-4-1-2.

It may seem pedantic but a midfield three of Fleck(LCM)-Evans
(CM)-Lundstram(RCM) cannot be spoken of in the same breath as Fleck(CM)-Coutts(CM)+ Duffy(AM).

These have a totally different dynamic. For one the strikers are further away in the 3-5-2 than 3-4-1-2 and that is part of the reason there is always the caveat about lack of service.

For me, before we throw the baby out with the bath water, we need to play the formation which gave us success not some bastardised version which got a win at Norwich in a grudge match but returnee no real form and sidelined our most creative midfielder.

Exactly this. James Wilson scored in that game and he was awful. The saying even a broken clock is right twice a day comes to mind.
 



However the biggest issue for me is the wing backs. This formation leaves 2 of our main attacking threats and creators as defenders. For me it's that simple: we're expecting DEFENDERS to regularly create quality chances, play the perfect cross, perfect pass, beat a man down the line. It's asking too much at this level with the quality of the opposition, and the relative quality of our full backs. As an aside, if we play this system Freeman has to play more as he's the only wing back we have with the quality and output needed in and around the box.

I agree with you but for slightly different reasons. The key problem that I have with the wing back system is that neither Baldock nor Stevens are good enough at either end of the field. Baldock isn't good in the air, gets himself into bad positions and can't cross a ball (he runs forwards, stops, then passes backwards / sidewards); Stevens switches off too many times and also can't cross a ball, plus he gets in the way too many times, as he did when he ran across Evans on the edge of the box last night. Freeman and O'Connor were much better and I would personally play them for a while - Stearman can come in at centre half.
 

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