Incoming? Sam Morsy

[Sean Thornton]

These away days Youve never mentioned before? Where you "don't really do away games" but have seen "many incidents like this over the years" now who's bullshitting?

It was in inward transfer. If you can't grasp the facts under discussion there's not much point carrying on really but I've met him many times and it was in the Copthorne before an away game on this occasion. Clearly your social circle is less widespread than mine, possibly because you don't attend games in this instance.

Who did you see at which grounds then seeing as we're talking "truth"?

Have a good Google and I'll check back in the morning.

 

[GrayBlade]

For me, well we paid a lot of money Brayford, he is, i believe one of the best, if not the best full backs inthe league, in a positive attack minded team why the fuck do we want to sell him, we should be biulding our team around quality like him, unless of course somebody comes in with

Some people seem to find it hard to differentiate between not good enough and not good value for money. I just see it that if somebody has agreed to pay his current contract and I think it's good value is irrelevant so...

Even on a bad day, Brayford would be in my starting 11, 100%, but I don't suppose Ricky/Herbert would agree with me, but I've grown to I respect Herb for his stances so hopefully we can agree to differ.

#nevermistakepolitenessforweakness.

 

[Barney]

These away days Youve never mentioned before? Where you "don't really do away games" but have seen "many incidents like this over the years" now who's bullshitting?

It was in inward transfer. If you can't grasp the facts under discussion there's not much point carrying on really but I've met him many times and it was in the Copthorne before an away game on this occasion. Clearly your social circle is less widespread than mine, possibly because you don't attend games in this instance.

Who did you see at which grounds then seeing as we're talking "truth"?

Have a good Google and I'll check back in the morning.

Who said away days? Err home games, other teams tend to have home games too.

As for this meeting with the director, I need not say any more but it's been good value nonetheless.

Be sure to update us all whenever you're due another meeting. It needs to be in reality next time though.

 

[Ricky]

And that assertion is based on what exactly?


No. Not unlucky at all. You made the wrong call. As the majority of us would in a world we've never played in. Even professionals make huge mistakes so thinking you can spot a genius based on past stats is suspect to say the least.

£1.7m. You quoted it yourself. That's not even the fee. The only time ive seen £2m is when people try to make a point. No one has ever seriously -and sensibly - ever suggested it was £2m.

Common sense. What do you base your assumption that Wigan will have scouted him thoroughly on? I'll give an example. Wolves have just bid £6m for Chris Martin at Derby. A player who wouldn't have been on the radar before their recent takeover as it would've been totally unrealistic. They've also changed manager, so there are no previous links to him whatsoever. But he's an established, well known player. Do you think Wolves will have been monitoring him regularly last season?

You keep saying 'past stats' but Manset in particular was based on anything but. Whenever I've used stats to support my view (professional scouts/clubs use stats too btw) they've usually been current stats.

I said £1.7m as an example, not something I've seen regularly quoted. Jim Phipps suggested it was £2m btw. So anyone saying £2m was hardly doing so without a good basis, as inaccurate as it may be.

 

[Chali 2na]

No it wouldn't. Clubs make wrong decisions and bad signings all the time. You can't be sure that they've actually been watching him regularly. They were interested in him a while ago and could simply be reviving that interest (same scouts?) based largely on his past performances and reputation.

There's no obsessional crusade. I'm not going to agree with everything Wilder does. But I think he'd be more than willing to sacrifice him in the right circumstances.

£2m is the most quoted figure. I was responding to SwissBlade's post. I think it was maybe a bit under that. Still too much.

Two million has never been the most quoted figure. Not at all.

You aren't that good at recommending players yourself as much as you hate to be reminded.

Your notion that Wigan aren't aware of his ability and injuries Is laughable, especially as you've admitted that you suggest players based on statistics. But you're right , I can't be sure, neither can you but nonetheless, you include it in your argument as if it's a cogent point.

Never said they won't be aware of his injuries. They might not be fully aware of his form. Of course it's a valid point to make. Wigan's interest is no concrete proof of anything.

My player 'recommendations' recently have mainly been good. Many of the ones that haven't come off in the past have been unlucky. But whatever.

What figure have you seen quoted most often? £2m or something like £1.4m or £1.7m?

Ricky, I understand where you're coming from and there are various degrees of scouting, but to suggest that Wigan wouldn't be fully aware of his current form and basing the deal on reputation is a little daft.

The minimum level of scouting will be watching hours of video of recent games, plus seeing him the flesh a few times (recently).

As for your point about Chris Martin, they may not have been scouting him directly per say, but it's highly likely that many of that coaching staff/scouts will have seen him play in games where they were watching another player or studying an opposition. The scouts will have trawled through Scout7/iSF, WyScout and Xeatre and probably know more about Chris Martin that his own mother.

For the record I love Ricky's player suggestions.

 

[Ricky]

If Wigan were fully aware of his current form would they be interested though? Then there's the question of just how far back 'current' form goes - questionable form over a shorter period can more easily be dismissed. I'm not saying they can't have watched him regularly enough, I'm just raising the possibility. When clubs get desperate and with the amount of money in the game now, they will often take gambles without doing the sort of ground work they usually would, typically near the end of transfer windows.

Wolves will have been paying no particular attention to Martin last season. They might have seen him when looking at something else but that's not likely to be very often. Reputation will be the driving force behind that bid. He's not really a player who needs scouting, Wigan could feel similar about Brayford.

 

[Blade56]

If Wigan were fully aware of his current form would they be interested though? ....

Well they are now!

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

The first 74 pages were complete drivel, the last 4 or 5 have descended to utter bullshit. But it's so hard to stop reading....

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The amounts aren't known. But assuming Adkins spent all the budget on the likes of Hammond, Woolford, Sammon etc and the original budget given to him wasntc reduced by the board then he was backed and blew it. Big time as well. If it wasn't enough to begin with, he shouldn't have taken the job.

I agree that his recruitment on the whole was disappointing. But I don't think a manager can know until he works with the players exactly how much is needed. He can't have known that Baxter would take drugs again for example. He also can't have known which players he would have been able to move on, who would step up, that Adams would have disciplinary issues etc. I think he also underestimated that since he was last in the division, either the players he had have slowed down a lot or the standard of fitness and athleticism has improved.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Who pays for that then?

The board. But those signings were an example of backing Clough, not Adkins.

 

[Snowman]

But what has happened to Morsy?

 

[Darthblade]

whats the obsession with getting rid of Brayford? in a game where we moan about players not being loyal we're happy to get rid of a player that genuinely wanted to come to the club. He's had a couple of injuries and was unlucky last season with an awful manager, yet he's now one of the most senior players at the club and versatile in the back four, yet people want to take a loss on him, just because...

Exactly ...... if we were to part with Brayford we need to be getting about £1.5million for him as he is a proven Championship RB, so talk of Morsy plus £200k is ridiculous. Morsy plus £1.2 million is more like it but even then you have the problem that it just creates another position we need to replace. it also pre-supposes that the transfer proceeds would be re-invested in the first team playing squad and there is currently little evidence that there is commitment to do that at Board level.

Basham can "fill-in" at RB but he's just a squad player in a serious promotion side and having sold Adams, we now need to replace him as well. My estimation is we need GK, CH, CM, and now an attacking midfield / striker to replace Adams as a bare minimum, preferably before Tuesday.

Regrettably; this just puts the issue of the transfer proceeds back into the spotlight ..........

UTB & FTP

 

[Minty]

But what has happened to Morsy?

Good question, I'm sure I read somewhere a rumour that he was signing for us?

 

[Stretch]

But what has happened to Morsy?

Good question, I'm sure I read somewhere a rumour that he was signing for us?

I may actually piss myself if he starts for Wigan today

 

[Chali 2na]

If Wigan were fully aware of his current form would they be interested though? Then there's the question of just how far back 'current' form goes - questionable form over a shorter period can more easily be dismissed. I'm not saying they can't have watched him regularly enough, I'm just raising the possibility. When clubs get desperate and with the amount of money in the game now, they will often take gambles without doing the sort of ground work they usually would, typically near the end of transfer windows.

Wolves will have been paying no particular attention to Martin last season. They might have seen him when looking at something else but that's not likely to be very often. Reputation will be the driving force behind that bid. He's not really a player who needs scouting, Wigan could feel similar about Brayford.

"Wigan were fully aware of his current form would they be interested though?"

Other than a twitter rumour, there's no evidence that they are.


"When clubs get desperate and with the amount of money in the game now, they will often take gambles without doing the sort of ground work they usually would, typically near the end of transfer windows."

True, but relatively speaking we aren't that near the end of the transfer window. Come the end of the month, when clubs failed to get targets A, B & C, that's when you see the desperation from clubs that you're talking about, when, admittedly, due diligence and preparation takes a back seat.


"Wolves will have been paying no particular attention to Martin last season. They might have seen him when looking at something else but that's not likely to be very often."

I think you underestimate the scouting capabilities of a club like Wolves. I don't know there exact setup, but I'd expect them to have at least 5 full time scouts. That's a lot of man hours of going to games, watching reels and scouting the opposition. Add to that with a few part time video scouts as well, then you'd imagine they have a pretty good idea what Chris Martin brings to the table.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Common sense. What do you base your assumption that Wigan will have scouted him thoroughly on? I'll give an example. Wolves have just bid £6m for Chris Martin at Derby. A player who wouldn't have been on the radar before their recent takeover as it would've been totally unrealistic. They've also changed manager, so there are no previous links to him whatsoever. But he's an established, well known player. Do you think Wolves will have been monitoring him regularly last season?

You keep saying 'past stats' but Manset in particular was based on anything but. Whenever I've used stats to support my view (professional scouts/clubs use stats too btw) they've usually been current stats.

I said £1.7m as an example, not something I've seen regularly quoted. Jim Phipps suggested it was £2m btw. So anyone saying £2m was hardly doing so without a good basis, as inaccurate as it may be.

You'll find scouts from clubs at nearly every game. Videos are available. The idea that Wigan think they would be buying the Brayford of a couple of years ago is, has been said, a bit daft. As for Martin, how on earth can you know if there had been interest in him before the takeover from the clubs scouting staff? Answer, you don't.

Ryan Hall?

Jim said the package was £2m, but he became known for his exaggerations concerning investment.

 

[Sean Thornton]

"
"When clubs get desperate and with the amount of money in the game now, they will often take gambles without doing the sort of ground work they usually would, typically near the end of transfer windows."

Any chance of a documented factual example of this in recent times? Where someone has actually stated this is the case?

 

[Blade56]

I may actually piss myself if he starts for Wigan today

I'd shit myself if he started for us

 

[Ricky]

"Wigan were fully aware of his current form would they be interested though?"

Other than a twitter rumour, there's no evidence that they are.


"When clubs get desperate and with the amount of money in the game now, they will often take gambles without doing the sort of ground work they usually would, typically near the end of transfer windows."

True, but relatively speaking we aren't that near the end of the transfer window. Come the end of the month, when clubs failed to get targets A, B & C, that's when you see the desperation from clubs that you're talking about, when, admittedly, due diligence and preparation takes a back seat.


"Wolves will have been paying no particular attention to Martin last season. They might have seen him when looking at something else but that's not likely to be very often."

I think you underestimate the scouting capabilities of a club like Wolves. I don't know there exact setup, but I'd expect them to have at least 5 full time scouts. That's a lot of man hours of going to games, watching reels and scouting the opposition. Add to that with a few part time video scouts as well, then you'd imagine they have a pretty good idea what Chris Martin brings to the table.

There's rarely any evidence for anything like this but the links seem very strong.

We aren't that far from the end of the window either and Wigan might be struggling for options and ideas.

They will have a lot of scouts but they won't have been purposely watching him last season. They may well have watched plenty of video footage recently to do that. They will have a good idea about Martin regardless of that though, but one thing I'd say is that with a well known player like that you can watch them with preconceptions when checking up on them, which can affect judgement.

You'll find scouts from clubs at nearly every game. Videos are available. The idea that Wigan think they would be buying the Brayford of a couple of years ago is, has been said, a bit daft. As for Martin, how on earth can you know if there had been interest in him before the takeover from the clubs scouting staff? Answer, you don't.

Ryan Hall?

Jim said the package was £2m, but he became known for his exaggerations concerning investment.

Wolves wouldn't have been able to afford him before their takeover, it's simple. He'd probably cost around £10m.

Ryan Hall did well at Luton, didn't cut it higher up, probably due to mentality.

"
"When clubs get desperate and with the amount of money in the game now, they will often take gambles without doing the sort of ground work they usually would, typically near the end of transfer windows."

Any chance of a documented factual example of this in recent times? Where someone has actually stated this is the case?

I have read one or two things suggesting it happens, can't remember where, one bit might have been in Roy Keane's book. But again I think it's quite obvious anyway.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

Blimey, there are far too many different threads to this thread for me to keep up. Would never have happened if that bloke from Whitby was still around, to tell us what is and isn't relevant to the topic.

As for clubs laying out cash for players they've not scouted properly, the example I always come back to is Everton kicking off Jags' time with them by sticking him straight into midfield ...

 

[Chali 2na]

There's rarely any evidence for anything like this but the links seem very strong.

We aren't that far from the end of the window either and Wigan might be struggling for options and ideas.

They will have a lot of scouts but they won't have been purposely watching him last season. They may well have watched plenty of video footage recently to do that. They will have a good idea about Martin regardless of that though, but one thing I'd say is that with a well known player like that you can watch them with preconceptions when checking up on them, which can affect judgement.




Wolves wouldn't have been able to afford him before their takeover, it's simple. He'd probably cost around £10m.

Ryan Hall did well at Luton, didn't cut it higher up, probably due to mentality.



I have read one or two things suggesting it happens, can't remember where, one bit might have been in Roy Keane's book. But again I think it's quite obvious anyway.

I personally don't think the links are strong at all. We may just have to disagree on that one. And with 2 and a half weeks before the transfer window left I also disagree with your implication that Wigan will be struggling for options or ideas.


"They will have a lot of scouts but they won't have been purposely watching him last season"

Yes, but as soon as he became a target, they will have scoured all the available footage and I wouldn't be surprised if they've retrospectively seen every game he's played in the last 2 years.


"a well known player like that you can watch them with preconceptions when checking up on them"

This I completely agree with, and when it's based on reputation or a manager's old boy, then that's when mistakes are made: Dean Hammond being a perfect example.

 

[Sean Thornton]

There's rarely any evidence for anything like this but the links seem very strong.

We aren't that far from the end of the window either and Wigan might be struggling for options and ideas.

They will have a lot of scouts but they won't have been purposely watching him last season. They may well have watched plenty of video footage recently to do that. They will have a good idea about Martin regardless of that though, but one thing I'd say is that with a well known player like that you can watch them with preconceptions when checking up on them, which can affect judgement.




Wolves wouldn't have been able to afford him before their takeover, it's simple. He'd probably cost around £10m.

Ryan Hall did well at Luton, didn't cut it higher up, probably due to mentality.



I have read one or two things suggesting it happens, can't remember where, one bit might have been in Roy Keane's book. But again I think it's quite obvious anyway.

We aren't going to agree but it shows the disparity of opinion over football matters. It may seem I disagree with all you say but in reality it's just on how we see events unfurling and the actual management and the problems arising from that. I don't think things are a simple and straightforward as you do. That's basically the difference. On player ratings, I tend to agree 100% and I have to say you do mark Brayford fairly despite your reservations.

 

[GrayBlade]

So what number is Morsy then? I'll keep an eye on him.

 

[s4-blade]

So what number is Morsy then? I'll keep an eye on him.

79 apparently

 

[derfblade]

Wigan just signed Shaun MacDonald from Bournemouth. Midfield player.................mmmmmmm!

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

Wigan just signed Shaun MacDonald from Bournemouth. Midfield player.................mmmmmmm!

Did you just orgasm?

 

[Bladesman]

is it today dad?

 

[Toronto Blade]

No Morsy on the bench for Wigan today.

 

[SwissBlade]

No Morsy on the bench for Wigan today.

what about Michael Brown?

 

[Pinchy]

No Morsy on the bench for Wigan today.

They've made it clear he can go by accepting offers from two clubs, so not really of any significance. The issue seems to be that Tufty, as I call him, is one of very few Blades who doesn't think he's the new Platini...