Playing from the back

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toledo

toledo

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What the heck is the popularity of playing from the back as it gives me nightmares every time I see it.

Watching Chelsea and MBoro from frigid Ohio and MBoro are committing suicide with mistakes when trying to do this.

Especially down the middle. I leaned my GK trade and working with my defense by getting the ball wide, not this mistake-prone down the middle of the box stuff.

Thoughts?

toledo
 

toledo said:
What the heck is the popularity of playing from the back as it gives me nightmares every time I see it.
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The last time I checked, the opposition had a hard time scoring when you keep the ball. Hoofing it to their centre halves is contrary to trying to keep the ball. If you have a hard time keeping the ball against a high press, then sure, twat it long and try to defend higher up and just delay their inevitable chance for a short while
 
I agree, you see all the time. Obsession with possession- time and again teams win the ball high up the pitch, winger gets 1:1 and instead having run at the defence, plays back down the flanks where it ends up at the feet of the worst passer on the team. Panic, lump upfield, rinse and repeat. Oh to see someone run at defenders, get tackled? So what, try again. Every defender pundit says that the thing that they hated most was people with pace running at them. But god forbid we lose possession in the final third. I know people will say you’re exposed to a break but that is just down to being organised surely? I’d rather full backs stay in their own half and let wingers have a go now and then
 
The thinking is that you concede more goals by hoofing it long and constantly giving up possession than you do by playing from the back, even though in the latter system you will concede some that look like spectacular fuck ups.
 
dc_blade said:
The thinking is that you concede more goals by hoofing it long and constantly giving up possession than you do by playing from the back, even though in the latter system you will concede some that look like spectacular fuck ups.
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Especially with Norwood doing it!

I don't like it myself but fine with it in the championship.
 
s20Blade said:
Especially with Norwood doing it!

I don't like it myself but fine with it in the championship.
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Our current group of players probably aren't good enough to do it against Premier League opposition, although Wilder seems to be encouraging them to have more faith in themselves to play football in tight spaces--under Hecky it was either stand stock still and pass backwards and sideways or smash it into the channels.

This is the way the game is played now and we will need to get better at it eventually.
 
It’s all about risk and reward. Good teams can use it to draw opponents out of shape, exploit space and create attacks - risk with reward. Poor teams get caught on the ball, or finish up hoofing it long under pressure - all risk, no reward.
Middlesbrough were stupid with their persistence in trying to play out from the back tonight - after their first 10 min good spell, it clearly wasn’t working and was creating no end of problems for them - architects of their own downfall in many respects. Stubborn headedness from Carrick.
Chelsea played the short ball out all evening, and it worked very well for them because they had far superior players.
I’m glad that we don’t play it out short very often in the Premier League - we’re generally inferior in speed and skill, and prospects of reward are slim. I would expect us to do more of it in the Championship against less good teams, in order to better dominate possession.

No right or wrong with the tactic - depends entirely on the context within which it is being employed.
 
It's worth doing it if you have the players to do it and if you are going to do it you can't move the ball about as slowly as Boro did. Boro seemed to think they had more time on the ball than they actually had.

Carrick seems to make no compromises which may stop him becoming a top manager. He surely must have been aware before the game that his Boro team did not have the quality to play that way tonight.
 
toledo said:
What the heck is the popularity of playing from the back as it gives me nightmares every time I see it.

Watching Chelsea and MBoro from frigid Ohio and MBoro are committing suicide with mistakes when trying to do this.

Especially down the middle. I leaned my GK trade and working with my defense by getting the ball wide, not this mistake-prone down the middle of the box stuff.

Thoughts?

toledo
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Gerrit upfield to the big bloke at no 9!
 
toledo said:
What the heck is the popularity of playing from the back as it gives me nightmares every time I see it.

Watching Chelsea and MBoro from frigid Ohio and MBoro are committing suicide with mistakes when trying to do this.

Especially down the middle. I leaned my GK trade and working with my defense by getting the ball wide, not this mistake-prone down the middle of the box stuff.

Thoughts?

toledo
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It is now essential part of being successful. I was never a big fan and always wanted it long and then to play.

But I’ve seen Hull a few times and they keep it very well from the back and control the game.

We need to be doing this next season. The new keeper better be good with his feet.
 
It’s because of the current trend of high press.

Klopp may have been first in recent times to do this, and with teams now able to have their own players inside the 18yard box it gives them a buffer.

The good sides can do it, invite the attacking team on and keep the ball easily. All their players able to ping crisp, ground skimming passes accurately to exactly where their team mate wants it. All their players are well rehearsed in it so their movement is quick and the timing of the pass spot on.

Once they get out they have then usually sucked in half a dozen opponents and are then attacking a defensively depleted side.

Done right it’s a superb tactic.
But the crowning glory is the need for a keeper that can join in and become almost an overload back there in possession. Then if the opponent does commit too many to the press also then get his head up and ping a pass out to a wide player who is often in space and then able to run straight at their centre halves.

We need to get with this if we are to progress forwards as a club.
Carrick is clearly trying to do that with Boro, but finding the players not quite up to dealing with a team like Chelsea who have the experience in playing against it as well as the pace to make it much harder for his inferior players.
Week in week out for Boro it probably works well in the champ.
It’s the same issue But let are finding…and Norwich did a few years back.

What you could say is Carrick lacks guile to change it to suit the opponent.
Or he trusted his players to be able to do it.

Or that he’s showing potential suitors at premier league clubs what he’s about, and that with better players his team would play a certain way.
Cue Palace approach in a week or two!!
 
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This is quite an interesting chart and we are somewhat of an outlier. You can probably interpret it a couple of ways as it doesn’t actually go in to quality of pass or whether they are successful passes etc.

What you can say is that we don't “mess around” on the ball that could be deliberate or it could be to our players lacking the quality and composure compared to other premier league sides. I appreciate we are bottom of the league and have very few passes a game but speed of passing can be a very good thing. Alonso at Leverkusen has got them playing some great stuff and even Simeone has changed his ways a bit with Atleti who move the ball around and then quickly ger it forrard when space is made.

I do think we have become a bit better at retaining possession under Wilder and having a few more options up top has certainly helped us to get the ball forward. Could see it on Sunday with McAtee picking up the spaces created by Osula occupying the back line.

What I will say is that in my mind everyone cannot and should not aim to play like Man City. I know Burnley are above us but watching Kompany “stick to his principles” week in week out trying to play out from the back against superior sides must be so frustrating as a fan. Good managers adapt to the team they are facing and whats happening on the pitch
 
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You have to have players who are excellent with the ball at their feet and with a football brain who can control the ball,think quickly,spot the pass and move into space while having strength and skill to hold off and beat the pressers,if you don't have the qualities its liable to end in tears before the half way line
 

Playing out from the back isn’t necessarily a bad thing, Boro’s problem last night was that Carrick lacked the flexibility to do something different when his team were losing the ball in silly areas. It doesnt help now that managers seem to be applauded for ‘sticking to their principles’ even if they end up getting spanked every now and again. While that may be all very noble to some, it’s ultimately not a very productive way to win games of football.

Trying to play out from the back against a team with much higher quality than you is footballing suicide on most occasions. Unless you can move the ball much quicker than Boro were then you’re asking for trouble especially when the opposition, who are stronger, quicker, fitter and more technically gifted. Sunderland were also guilty of this in their game against Newcastle and it’s actually really frustrating to watch and doesn’t make for a very good game for a neutral.

If Carrick wants to play like that then he probably can against someone like Rotherham or Wednesday (lol) at home because they are likely to sit deeper and allow them more time on the ball. Clearly they like to slowly build up from the back and they’ll probably get some success playing through the thirds and building some momentum into the opposition half.

It comes down to reacting to different situations in a game. Approaching every game in the same way is at best pure arrogance at its worst its sheer stupidity. It’s why I’d happily play Russel Martins Swansea at home every week, you’d never win less than 2-0 because they’d gift you at least that every game. Credit to him now because he’s still playing that way but with a group of players who have the ability to do that well at Championship level. If they get up to the Prem and he carries on doing it every week they’ll finish with less points than us.

It’s not necessarily playing out from the back thats the problem, it’s the lack of adaptability when a better team presses you higher up the pitch.
 
I went to a non -league match last night. Constantly playing out from the back. Perilous to say the least
 
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GuangzhouBlade said:
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This is quite an interesting chart and we are somewhat of an outlier. You can probably interpret it a couple of ways as it doesn’t actually go in to quality of pass or whether they are successful passes etc.

What you can say is that we don't “mess around” on the ball that could be deliberate or it could be to our players lacking the quality and composure compared to other premier league sides. I appreciate we are bottom of the league and have very few passes a game but speed of passing can be a very good thing. Alonso at Leverkusen has got them playing some great stuff and even Simeone has changed his ways a bit with Atleti who move the ball around and then quickly ger it forrard when space is made.

I do think we have become a bit better at retaining possession under Wilder and having a few more options up top has certainly helped us to get the ball forward. Could see it on Sunday with McAtee picking up the spaces created by Osula occupying the back line.
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that, paired with what i’ve seen most seen most season says to me, absolute pre-historic northern hoof merchants who can’t string 2 passes together.

Against West Ham gave me confidence we can actually play, thankfully. Hopefully the tides are turning and we are more adaptable.
 
I don't think we will always play out from the back but I think it was a deffo tactic Vs West ham. And I could see why.

West ham sit deep. Booting it long would have resulted in just giving back possession. And largely it worked.

We controlled most of the match with the ball. And whilst a draw is probably fair we looked decent with the ball.

We had 57% possession which is high for us this season.
 
Blacksea said:
You have to have players who are excellent with the ball at their feet and with a football brain who can control the ball,think quickly,spot the pass and move into space while having strength and skill to hold off and beat the pressers,if you don't have the qualities its liable to end in tears before the half way line
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Not true though, teams down the pyramid are doing it. Against lesser opposition but still able to play around the press.

You should’t need £50mill players to pass and move. It just needs to be coached.
 
BettingBlade said:
Playing out from the back isn’t necessarily a bad thing, Boro’s problem last night was that Carrick lacked the flexibility to do something different when his team were losing the ball in silly areas. It doesnt help now that managers seem to be applauded for ‘sticking to their principles’ even if they end up getting spanked every now and again. While that may be all very noble to some, it’s ultimately not a very productive way to win games of football.

Trying to play out from the back against a team with much higher quality than you is footballing suicide on most occasions. Unless you can move the ball much quicker than Boro were then you’re asking for trouble especially when the opposition, who are stronger, quicker, fitter and more technically gifted. Sunderland were also guilty of this in their game against Newcastle and it’s actually really frustrating to watch and doesn’t make for a very good game for a neutral.

If Carrick wants to play like that then he probably can against someone like Rotherham or Wednesday (lol) at home because they are likely to sit deeper and allow them more time on the ball. Clearly they like to slowly build up from the back and they’ll probably get some success playing through the thirds and building some momentum into the opposition half.

It comes down to reacting to different situations in a game. Approaching every game in the same way is at best pure arrogance at its worst its sheer stupidity. It’s why I’d happily play Russel Martins Swansea at home every week, you’d never win less than 2-0 because they’d gift you at least that every game. Credit to him now because he’s still playing that way but with a group of players who have the ability to do that well at Championship level. If they get up to the Prem and he carries on doing it every week they’ll finish with less points than us.

It’s not necessarily playing out from the back thats the problem, it’s the lack of adaptability when a better team presses you higher up the pitch.
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Exactly sometimes you can play out from the back more easily when you have a “big man” up top because the opposition has to cover that long ball “option” as well. City have become even more dangerous with the physicality and speed of Haaland to worry about as well as the inch perfect passing. Like you say its when you just do the same thing over an over again you become easy to play against.
 
toledo said:
What the heck is the popularity of playing from the back as it gives me nightmares every time I see it.

Watching Chelsea and MBoro from frigid Ohio and MBoro are committing suicide with mistakes when trying to do this.

Especially down the middle. I leaned my GK trade and working with my defense by getting the ball wide, not this mistake-prone down the middle of the box stuff.

Thoughts?

toledo
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It is the best way to play, but only if you have defenders who are comfortable on the ball and a midfield that is mobile and in space to take the pass forward.
Watching so many teams who are not good enough to play in this way is a nightmare, not least at BL.
 
This is what happens in football. A team, Man City in this case, gets success playing a certain way, and every team tries to copy them, albeit using inferior players. On Sunday, Wes, JLT and Anel lived very dangerously on quite a few occasions. To be honest, it bores me silly and I'd much rather see us using our strengths and not just be sheep.
 
Another problem with being a weaker team is that the opposition defenders are so strong that they can afford to commit a lot of forwards and midfielders into the high press, making it harder to play out against. Man City can push 8 players right up if they want, knowing that with the pace of Walker and the skill of Ruben Dias, they won’t get too exposed if the opposition occasionally breaks through the press.

If we pushed 8 players forward, we’d be horribly exposed if the opposition got through.

It’s why it worked well for us last season: Egan, Ahmedhodzic and Robinson were pretty good at coping against Championship forwards when they were outnumbered. So we could throw the fullbacks and midfielders into a high press, with Illy chasing absolutely everything down. We just can’t afford to do that in the Premier League.
 
Geordie Blade said:
It’s why it worked well for us last season: Egan, Ahmedhodzic and Robinson were pretty good at coping against Championship forwards when they were outnumbered. So we could throw the fullbacks and midfielders into a high press, with Illy chasing absolutely everything down. We just can’t afford to do that in the Premier League.
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Seems directly related to pace to me - the likes of Egan can cope against a typical Championship forward, but is a red card waiting to happen against anyone with a bit of pace/trickery, which you see ever so slightly more in the Premier League. Which makes it all the more baffling why there is seemingly a large proportion of our fanbase who will happily shit on any forward we sign that is quick as opposed to an outlet (although the number that shit on McBurnie for being that is almost as large), and a similar large proportion of our fanbase that see the most important attribute for a centre back to be 6'4" or taller, as opposed to being quick or able to defend. Wouldn't surprise me if the Venn diagram of those two is a circle to be honest
 
I am fully in favour of playing out from the back but it doesn't have to be from every goal kick or every time the keeper is in position. What I can't abide is the goal kepper hanging onto the ball or waiting to take the free kick w, with two defenders either side and waiting for the opposition to get into shape. When this happens and the ball is played short , those receiving it are immediately under pressure, they have to move the ball quickly which puts more pressure on the receiver , this contiues until somebody either hoofs it or loses it. It happens with all teams but more frequently with those who have lower quality players.
 
I'd love to see the stats that back up the thinking. You can't go a weekend without seeing two or three goals from sides passing it about at the back. I wonder how many goals come from a long kick?
 

Bert said:
Most boring team Bert has seen at The Lane this season.... Man City.

Technically brilliant but boring.
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They were more interesting at the Lane with Haaland than they were at the Etihad. His presence at least encourages them to lift the ball off the ground.

The whole City thing leaves me cold. A team full of hugely expensive players holding onto the ball for ever against teams who have basically no chance of beating them despite being in the same league. Is this what people want to see? I will always watch it when they play us but if it's another team outside the top few you can forget it.

re playing out from the back generally, there's a time and a place. I'm happy for United to do it if they don't get themselves in trouble repeatedly. If you can't beat the press, you are an idiot for doing it. See Russell Martin's Swansea at the Lane. If Soton go up he's going to do the same in the PL and get ripped apart.
 
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