Objective opinions on our investment

[PeteBlade]

Since the Prince took over in 2013, there have been a fair few quotes in the media from Kevin McCabe and Jim Phipps and what they would do, what they've done and where it will take us .

Below is a reminder of the some of what has been said, all of which I will quote so it's not paraphrased, or not changed by my own opinion.

The question I would like to ask people, is, looking at things since then, were the initial quotes and statements accurate? Has this materialised? And are we better off?

Polite and friendly answers only please, which ever side of the question your opinion lies, I'm only here to make friends remember

So, here goes:

"This is game-changing for this club and the funds being invested in the team are substantial."-Kevin McCabe

"The money being made available is for investment at first-team level and that means building a squad that can get us back to the upper echelons of English football." -Kevin McCabe

"I would also say to our supporters that this also ensures we can keep our own young players, hopefully on longer contracts"-Kevin McCabe

"This is an investment in which the only option is to do what you must do to get to the Premier League"-Jim Phipps

"One of the things we were keen to do, was to avoid the mistake many foreign owners make when they assume ownership, which is to make decisions as though they understand English football. Our investment style is relatively humble; we’re ambitious people, but we realise we don’t know everything."-Jim Phipps


So, have the funds we've invested been "substantial"? We spent a lot of cash on John Brayford, but we received a lot of cash for Harry Maguire.

Have we just been unlucky? Have the board invested their trust and money with the likes of Clough and he wasted it? My mind drifts back to the last JTW window where we apparently made 4 permanent bids for players, all at the last minute, all rejected, and we were left with no one.

Our it seems very easy for us to sell our players, but then we end up coming across a hell of a lot of hitches when trying to get people in.

Would Nigel Adkins, strong CV and track record that he has, REALLY have seen our defence, and through his own doing, not strengthened it until the end of September? I find that hard to believe.

What does everyone else think?

 

[UnitedBlade]

They've had to clear out 2 lots of managers and support staff, they've had two seasons of losses to fund (do we lose £4m pa ? I can't remember) and they've spent a bit on pitches (unless McCabe funded that).

They gave Clough some money to create a bloated, unbalanced squad.

I reckon they've done maybe £15M of the £20M they set aside.

It doesn't go far but we have to have faith in Adkins. We can't keep on failing to get promotion, it costs money.

We also mustn't fall for "game changing investment".

Bournemouth, Brentford and Bristol City had GCI, we don't.

 

[PeteBlade]

They've had to clear out 2 lots of managers and support staff, they've had two seasons of losses to fund (do we lose £4m pa ? I can't remember) and they've spent a bit on pitches (unless McCabe funded that).

They gave Clough some money to create a bloated, unbalanced squad.

I reckon they've done maybe £15M of the £20M they set aside.

It doesn't go far but we have to have faith in Adkins. We can't keep on failing to get promotion, it costs money.

We also mustn't fall for "game changing investment".

Bournemouth, Brentford and Bristol City had GCI, we don't.

It would be so depressing if we'd done in all our investment on sacking shite managers and amassing shite players like they were going out of fashion.

And as you point out, the teams with genuinely game changing investment tend to purchase game changing players who genuinely change games.

They then go up.

Wolves also show exactly how to do things when being relegated. Immediately hired a manager with a great track record (which we finally have done after 5 years) and went about cherry picking the best players from the teams in their league. Like McDonald.

We've tried to do it to a certain extent with the likes of Baxter and Done, but we've never really gone after it like these guys have.

 

[BushBlade]

They've had to clear out 2 lots of managers and support staff, they've had two seasons of losses to fund (do we lose £4m pa ? I can't remember) and they've spent a bit on pitches (unless McCabe funded that).

They gave Clough some money to create a bloated, unbalanced squad.

I reckon they've done maybe £15M of the £20M they set aside.

It doesn't go far but we have to have faith in Adkins. We can't keep on failing to get promotion, it costs money.

We also mustn't fall for "game changing investment".

Bournemouth, Brentford and Bristol City had GCI, we don't.

I'd like to see some genuine figures re our losses. I'm not necessarily disputing it but people keep quoting numbers without saying where they've come from.

The club keeps saying it has provided a budget good enough to get us promoted. Prove it, I don't mean this season obviously, that would be stupid, but publish the information they had on last season they based that statement on. Show us how our budget compared to that of our top six rivals.

 

[Rodley]

Christ, are we dredging this up again?!

 

[PeteBlade]

Christ, are we dredging this up again?!

Clue was in the title.

 

[UnitedBlade]

I'd like to see some genuine figures re our losses. I'm not necessarily disputing it but people keep quoting numbers without saying where they've come from.

The club keeps saying it has provided a budget good enough to get us promoted. Prove it, I don't mean this season obviously, that would be stupid, but publish the information they had on last season they based that statement on. Show us how our budget compared to that of our top six rivals.

Last season's accounts won't be out until December.

2013/14 operating loss was £4.5M on £10.5M turnover.

Last season's accounts won't be any better.

Wigan's turnover this season will be double ours because of parachute payments. No one else will be close to our turnover this season unless someone puts in a lot of equity investment.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

McCabe gets bludgeoned over the head for the GCI comment, but I can see why he made it. As things stand, we are a stable club that despite years in this league still have funds to invest – notwithstanding the problems to get the specific targets we want to invest these in.

Prior to the Prince's arrival we had year-on-year cost-cutting that tried to cope with the continual annual losses the club makes. Wilson in season 2 was unable to offer Williamson the cash to stay, and we were barely able to agree with McDonald. The signings we were making were in the £0-300k market. This continued to the summer of season 3 where Weir was expected to fish about for scraps in the lower end of the market on low wages – McGinty and Jasper Johns for example. Meanwhile weren't we cutting staff in the non-footballing parts of the club, moving on individuals that had been at the Lane for years?

Then the Prince game in. We suddenly had the ability to invest, and quickly did so with no return. We then sacked Weir and his assistants, replaced with Clough and his entourage, and backed him with more investment that January. Last season we had funds to invest, signed some in the summer, and then blew all of the Maguire funds last January on Brayford & Done. This summer, despite our ridiculously bulky squad, we have added significantly while barely trimming any of it. We're still looking to invest even now, without actively looking to flog out more sellable squad members.

This might not be many fans' idea of "game-changing", but without the investment we would likely be an absolute mess. People might hate this league, but save for some horrendous mismanagement by a manager out of his depth we've been in no danger of a collapse financially or on a footballing side of things, while clubs like Pompey have plummeted and others like Coventry have gone through various off the field turmoil that's transferred onto the pitch. It's too easy to take what the Prince & Co have done for granted. If the Prince withdrew from the club tomorrow we would be royally fucked.

 

[UnitedBlade]

It would be so depressing if we'd done in all our investment on sacking shite managers and amassing shite players like they were going out of fashion.

And as you point out, the teams with genuinely game changing investment tend to purchase game changing players who genuinely change games.

They then go up.

Wolves also show exactly how to do things when being relegated. Immediately hired a manager with a great track record (which we finally have done after 5 years) and went about cherry picking the best players from the teams in their league. Like McDonald.

We've tried to do it to a certain extent with the likes of Baxter and Done, but we've never really gone after it like these guys have.

Wolves had £16m parachute payments that season, 3 times our turnover at about £30m !

I had to laugh at people before that season started saying they were the next Portsmouth. I had no doubt they would walk the league.

 

[PeteBlade]

McCabe gets bludgeoned over the head for the GCI comment, but I can see why he made it. As things stand, we are a stable club that despite years in this league still have funds to invest – notwithstanding the problems to get the specific targets we want to invest these in.

Prior to the Prince's arrival we had year-on-year cost-cutting that tried to cope with the continual annual losses the club makes. Wilson in season 2 was unable to offer Williamson the cash to stay, and we were barely able to agree with McDonald. The signings we were making were in the £0-300k market. This continued to the summer of season 3 where Weir was expected to fish about for scraps in the lower end of the market on low wages – McGinty and Jasper Johns for example. Meanwhile weren't we cutting staff in the non-footballing parts of the club, moving on individuals that had been at the Lane for years?

Then the Prince game in. We suddenly had the ability to invest, and quickly did so with no return. We then sacked Weir and his assistants, replaced with Clough and his entourage, and backed him with more investment that January. Last season we had funds to invest, signed some in the summer, and then blew all of the Maguire funds last January on Brayford & Done. This summer, despite our ridiculously bulky squad, we have added significantly while barely trimming any of it. We're still looking to invest even now, without actively looking to flog out more sellable squad members.

This might not be many fans' idea of "game-changing", but without the investment we would likely be an absolute mess. People might hate this league, but save for some horrendous mismanagement by a manager out of his depth we've been in no danger of a collapse financially or on a footballing side of things, while clubs like Pompey have plummeted and others like Coventry have gone through various off the field turmoil that's transferred onto the pitch. It's too easy to take what the Prince & Co have done for granted. If the Prince withdrew from the club tomorrow we would be royally fucked.

You make very strong points which I take on board and I certainly agree with a fair bit of it. I think we've been let down by managers, Clough in particular.

I do take exception with your comment about "adding significantly" this summer.

Unless mistaken, we've added Billy Sharp and Martyn Woolford on permanent transfers and Edgar/Sammon on loan, whilst banking £1.5 million for Jamie Murphy. I would disagree that this counts as adding significantly.

 

[PeteBlade]

Wolves had £16m parachute payments that season, 3 times our turnover at about £30m !

I had to laugh at people before that season started saying they were the next Portsmouth. I had no doubt they would walk the league.

Didn't we have parachute payments when we first came down? Or had they just stopped. Trying to remember whether we wasted them in the Championship or wasted them down here.

 

[robbiez666]

The club itself, behind the scenes, is clearly a whole lot more stable now.

I'd dispute whether The Prince has invested substantially on the field as promised. We've clearly spent more than before but with the money from Harry and Murphy I doubt we're currently in deficit. In terms of wages, we were apparently nearer the FFP levels under Wilson (or at least that's what we were told).

 

[UnitedBlade]

McCabe gets bludgeoned over the head for the GCI comment, but I can see why he made it. As things stand, we are a stable club that despite years in this league still have funds to invest – notwithstanding the problems to get the specific targets we want to invest these in.

Prior to the Prince's arrival we had year-on-year cost-cutting that tried to cope with the continual annual losses the club makes. Wilson in season 2 was unable to offer Williamson the cash to stay, and we were barely able to agree with McDonald. The signings we were making were in the £0-300k market. This continued to the summer of season 3 where Weir was expected to fish about for scraps in the lower end of the market on low wages – McGinty and Jasper Johns for example. Meanwhile weren't we cutting staff in the non-footballing parts of the club, moving on individuals that had been at the Lane for years?

Then the Prince game in. We suddenly had the ability to invest, and quickly did so with no return. We then sacked Weir and his assistants, replaced with Clough and his entourage, and backed him with more investment that January. Last season we had funds to invest, signed some in the summer, and then blew all of the Maguire funds last January on Brayford & Done. This summer, despite our ridiculously bulky squad, we have added significantly while barely trimming any of it. We're still looking to invest even now, without actively looking to flog out more sellable squad members.

This might not be many fans' idea of "game-changing", but without the investment we would likely be an absolute mess. People might hate this league, but save for some horrendous mismanagement by a manager out of his depth we've been in no danger of a collapse financially or on a footballing side of things, while clubs like Pompey have plummeted and others like Coventry have gone through various off the field turmoil that's transferred onto the pitch. It's too easy to take what the Prince & Co have done for granted. If the Prince withdrew from the club tomorrow we would be royally fucked.

Didn't we have parachute payments when we first came down? Or had they just stopped. Trying to remember whether we wasted them in the Championship or wasted them down here.

No, the year after we left the PL, they massively increased the parachute payments. We'd done ours before relegation to L1.

 

[BushBlade]

Last season's accounts won't be out until December.

2013/14 operating loss was £4.5M on £10.5M turnover.

Last season's accounts won't be any better.

Wigan's turnover this season will be double ours because of parachute payments. No one else will be close to our turnover this season unless someone puts in a lot of equity investment.

Your last sentence is the point I'm making. If other clubs are getting good equity investment and can carry higher expenditure than us then saying our budget is sufficient for promotion would be disingenuous. It's not the amount per se, it's the amount compared to our rivals.

 

[PeteBlade]

Your last sentence is the point I'm making. If other clubs are getting good equity investment and can carry higher expenditure than us then saying our budget is sufficient for promotion would be disingenuous. It's not the amount per se, it's the amount compared to our rivals.

It was more than a small worry when Adkins said pre season that we may not in the top 6 in terms of budget this season.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

You make very strong points which I take on board and I certainly agree with a fair bit of it. I think we've been let down by managers, Clough in particular.

I do take exception with your comment about "adding significantly" this summer.

Unless mistaken, we've added Billy Sharp and Martyn Woolford on permanent transfers and Edgar/Sammon on loan, whilst banking £1.5 million for Jamie Murphy. I would disagree that this counts as adding significantly.

Fair enough. 4 players in for the full season, one lost that we didn't want to lose. 3 of the 4 key parts of our first team too. We haven't been able to invest what we wanted to invest – I doubt that will mean the 1.5m will disappear. Like last season, it'll probably be fully reinvested in January. Another manager might have picked more attainable targets to reinvest the funds before the window shut. Could be a huge mistake come May. We won't know till May.

 

[zablade]

The statement I feel most let down on is

"we will now no longer have to sell our best players".

And have proceeded to sell our best player every summer since Phipps and co arrived.

 

[BushBlade]

McCabe gets bludgeoned over the head for the GCI comment, but I can see why he made it. As things stand, we are a stable club that despite years in this league still have funds to invest – notwithstanding the problems to get the specific targets we want to invest these in.

Prior to the Prince's arrival we had year-on-year cost-cutting that tried to cope with the continual annual losses the club makes. Wilson in season 2 was unable to offer Williamson the cash to stay, and we were barely able to agree with McDonald. The signings we were making were in the £0-300k market. This continued to the summer of season 3 where Weir was expected to fish about for scraps in the lower end of the market on low wages – McGinty and Jasper Johns for example. Meanwhile weren't we cutting staff in the non-footballing parts of the club, moving on individuals that had been at the Lane for years?

Then the Prince game in. We suddenly had the ability to invest, and quickly did so with no return. We then sacked Weir and his assistants, replaced with Clough and his entourage, and backed him with more investment that January. Last season we had funds to invest, signed some in the summer, and then blew all of the Maguire funds last January on Brayford & Done. This summer, despite our ridiculously bulky squad, we have added significantly while barely trimming any of it. We're still looking to invest even now, without actively looking to flog out more sellable squad members.

This might not be many fans' idea of "game-changing", but without the investment we would likely be an absolute mess. People might hate this league, but save for some horrendous mismanagement by a manager out of his depth we've been in no danger of a collapse financially or on a footballing side of things, while clubs like Pompey have plummeted and others like Coventry have gone through various off the field turmoil that's transferred onto the pitch. It's too easy to take what the Prince & Co have done for granted. If the Prince withdrew from the club tomorrow we would be royally fucked.

Wouldn't disagree with that. I don't think anyone can argue that we're not in a better position than before Weir got the job, when no decent manager would touch us with a shitty stick.

 

[BushBlade]

The statement I feel most let down on is

"we will now no longer have to sell our best players".

And have proceeded to sell our best player every summer since Phipps and co arrived.

Yeah, but we don't HAVE to, we just can't help it.

 

[Woodwardfan]

When the accounts for 2014/5 are published we may have some clue. Also when the season fully unfolds in the key Windows we may know a bit more.

 

[PeteBlade]

When the accounts for 2014/5 are published we may have some clue. Also when the season fully unfolds in the key Windows we may know a bit more.

Was the last transfer window not key?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Was the last transfer window not key?

I thought it was a fairly good window. Murphy wanted to leave, end of story I'm afraid.

 

[BushBlade]

The club itself, behind the scenes, is clearly a whole lot more stable now.

I'd dispute whether The Prince has invested substantially on the field as promised. We've clearly spent more than before but with the money from Harry and Murphy I doubt we're currently in deficit. In terms of wages, we were apparently nearer the FFP levels under Wilson (or at least that's what we were told).

In the first season after we were relegated our wage bill was frightening. We were overpaying players by championship standards, hence we were stuck with a lot of them.
So, technically, it's probably true, but it could be we're still at a high level, just less than the ridiculously, fuck me how much, high level previously.
Richard Osman isn't as tall as Richard Kiel but you wouldn't call him short.

 

[PeteBlade]

I thought it was a fairly good window. Murphy wanted to leave, end of story I'm afraid.

We lost our best player. Didn't replace him. And failed to strengthen a very obviously weak defence.
And every single time we sell a player, we blame it on "the agents" or "He wanted to leave".

 

[stringjunior]

This has been done to death. Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

[robbiez666]

In the first season after we were relegated our wage bill was frightening. We were overpaying players by championship standards, hence we were stuck with a lot of them.
So, technically, it's probably true, but it could be we're still at a high level, just less than the ridiculously, fuck me how much, high level previously.
Richard Osman isn't as tall as Richard Kiel but you wouldn't call him short.

Agreed, but when investment is raised the question of wages is often used as a counter argument. If our wage bill is less now than before The Prince then it can't really be used to explain 'substantial investment'

 

[PeteBlade]

This has been done to death. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Thank for the contribution. Maybe notice the thread title and move along yourself if it doesn't interest you.
Or hey, go wild, start your own thread.

 

[Woodwardfan]

We lost our best player. Didn't replace him. And failed to strengthen a very obviously weak defence.
And every single time we sell a player, we blame it on "the agents" or "He wanted to leave".

Things take time. I'll give the manager a year but I believe he will have us promoted by March. It's very early days. He's learning about the players all the time as indeed we are in a more attacking style. We are short of more than defenders.

 

[The Vicar]

Mentioning Bristol, Brentford & Bournemouth is interesting as they all played decent football, had stability, decent managers who have been given time & a measure of investment [some substantial]. For the last 3 seasons all we have had is a measure of investment but alongside systematically selling our better players, which probably equals limited investment.

We are not going to get promoted on the cheap, or by constant change. We have a decent manager who I hope will be given time, investment & a stable club, only then might we see decent football regularly.

Our current limitations are obvious, & whilst I hope that Done, Brayford etc will make a real difference they will not be enough!

 

[Harry's Game]

We seem to have invested in some injury prone mates of the previous manager and very nice looking pitch.

Billy Blade may have cost some money as well to be fair but he needs to score 25 - 30 goals this season as we haven't brought much else in.