Nigel Clough..

[AlienBlade]

We ended last season appallingly, and not just over a few games. There's loads of reasons why the might not be doing a fair bit better this season. And given the absolute mess he made of the defence, I'd have no confidence in him saying that he'd "identified the problem".

UTB

there was many reasons why we ended last season poorly... injuries were a huge contributing factor.... clough attempting to appease fans by playing formations out of kilter to how he knew the team was comfortable was another... but you say we "ended lasat season appallingly"

3 wins from the last 12 league games.....

4 wins from the last 12 league games....

lets see if you can guess which is this season... and which is the run in to last season....

so if we "ended last season appallingly" under what a fair few deemed a shit manager.... how would you describe this period... given it is worse...

and if we talk about "no confidence" Adkins is still singing the praises of Hammond... I took a video of the build up to Southends second goal.... Hammond at no point marks any man, nor does he attempt to get back to make any tackle... yet we should be trusting his decisions... at least when clough was spewing out x had a bad game we could actually (in a darkened room away from prying ears) admit he was corrrect x did have a poor game.

 

[AlienBlade]

By the time we're done, I bet Brayford will cost of more than £3,000,000 - for a right back! He signed him and left a gaping hole through the middle for an entire season, without acting.

Adkins probably thought making up with Collins was enough - but he's been proved wrong. He then plugged the gap with Edgar, but that hasn't worked so far. I wouldn't write him off yet.

I've no doubt this seasons transfer activity is limited in quality and number by the poor quality and number of players signed by Clough.

I have my concerns about what Adkins has so far done too, but it doesn't justify the mess Clough made.

As for Wallace, look at his career stats so far - no decision to make for me, bin him.

UTB

he is limited by the fact when we had a chance to get shut of many players, he gave them all clean sheets... thus limiting himself.

he has brought in 5 players thus far, choosing to stick a striker on the wing (when he does play him) hardly plays the "winger" (a player who has played just twice more than James Wallace this season...) a striker who has hit the back of the net once in the last 9 games, Edgar who despite having to play a CM in defence allows the player to go off to play for Canada (clearly rates him) and then the ultimate brown noser in Hammond who both in live action and from listinening to the radio has his own catchphrase "Hammond has lost possession" (I assume it's a catch phrase I have seen it and thought it that many times)

 

[Grappler]

I don't think the plan was to sack Clough, I am sure I heard there had been a bust up at a meeting to discuss player recruitment and he walked out.

 

[Bartleby]

he is limited by the fact when we had a chance to get shut of many players, he gave them all clean sheets... thus limiting himself.

What chance was that? My understanding was that Clough had already presided over the retain list and renewed some contract options. What players had contracts up when Adkins came in?

 

[alcoblade]

there was many reasons why we ended last season poorly... injuries were a huge contributing factor.... clough attempting to appease fans by playing formations out of kilter to how he knew the team was comfortable was another... but you say we "ended lasat season appallingly"

3 wins from the last 12 league games.....

4 wins from the last 12 league games....

lets see if you can guess which is this season... and which is the run in to last season....

so if we "ended last season appallingly" under what a fair few deemed a shit manager.... how would you describe this period... given it is worse...

and if we talk about "no confidence" Adkins is still singing the praises of Hammond... I took a video of the build up to Southends second goal.... Hammond at no point marks any man, nor does he attempt to get back to make any tackle... yet we should be trusting his decisions... at least when clough was spewing out x had a bad game we could actually (in a darkened room away from prying ears) admit he was corrrect x did have a poor game.

You seem to be doing an awful lot of justifying last seasons mess by suggesting that it's no better this season.

My point is that the 2 aren't linked. Clough built an expensive squad, and failed to get anywhere near automatic promotion. It was dreadful to watch, and he got sacked - Nothing to do with Adkins.

Separately, I have issues with what Adkins has done so far. After a third of a season, I'm happy to allow him more time to make up for Clough's, and his own mistakes.

Clough had nearly 2 years to confirm what a decade and a half in management had proved - he's not actually very good at this job. I don't think we should just to rubbish the career of a proven successful manager based on a third of a season. But either way, the two just aren't linked.

UTB

 

[AlienBlade]

What chance was that? My understanding was that Clough had already presided over the retain list and renewed some contract options. What players had contracts up when Adkins came in?

so he couldnt loan any one out or put players on the transfer list... pay up contracts etc. etc... (you know like he is starting to do now with loaning out the likes of Alcock, McNulty and Higdon) thus freeing up space and money....

he instead decided to give everyone 6 months to prove their worth despite many clearly not having worth

 

[Bartleby]

Out of interest list me all this huge number of poor quality players Clough signed that has left Adkins with such a mess.

Alcock, James Wallace (not quality but fitness),Scougall, McNulty,Higdon,McEveley, Coutts

 

[Barney]

Out of interest list me all this huge number of poor quality players Clough signed that has left Adkins with such a mess.

Really? O.M.G

J. Wallace
Scougall
Coutts
McNulty
McEveley
Campbell Ryce
Alcock
Higdon
McGahey
Reed - renewed his contract I seem to remember.

And I'd add:
Freeman
K.Wallace

 

[Bartleby]

so he couldnt loan any one out or put players on the transfer list... pay up contracts etc. etc... (you know like he is starting to do now with loaning out the likes of Alcock, McNulty and Higdon) thus freeing up space and money....

he instead decided to give everyone 6 months to prove their worth despite many clearly not having worth

I'm not in total awe of the Adkins by any means but wouldn't have expected any manager to come in and arrange all that straight away and start spending on paying off players who have just has contract extensions, no.

 

[Bartleby]

Really? O.M.G

J. Wallace
Scougall
Coutts
McNulty
McEveley
Campbell Ryce
Alcock
Higdon
McGahey
Reed - renewed his contract I seem to remember.

And I'd add:
Freeman
K.Wallace

don't agree about Reed, K Wallace and Freeman (edit: and JCR) but otherwise it's hard not to agree with you for once, as per my post preceding you

 

[sitwell]

Alcock, James Wallace (not quality but fitness),Scougall, McNulty,Higdon,McEveley, Coutts

I will give you Higdon who was a terrible signing but all the others would get into virtually ever side in this division ,they would all have had a part to play ,we just needed a centre half ,strong midfielder and centre forward to play around. Finding a decent available centre half isn't as easy as it seems ,as the new manager with a full pre season behind him is finding out.

 

[oldblade]

Alcock, James Wallace (not quality but fitness),Scougall, McNulty,Higdon,McEveley, Coutts

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, bu tI wouldn't say Coutts, Wallace, Scougall or McNulty are poor quality players.

 

[Bartleby]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, bu tI wouldn't say Coutts, Wallace, Scougall or McNulty are poor quality players.

I didn't say Wallace was poor quality, just never fit and he has admitted himself it is as much a mental as a physical weakness. I like Scougall and he started out in great form in his first season but I have to admit I now agree with those that say he is too slight to compete against some of the big boys at this level, he just gets pushed aside too often. McNulty has some ability in there but not worth the effort IMO as two managers seem to have discovered. He put a shift in for Pompey on sunday but hardly set the place alight. Coutts, yes I may have been a bit hasty on that he has improved a lot lately.

 

[Bartleby]

I will give you Higdon who was a terrible signing but all the others would get into virtually ever side in this division ,they would all have had a part to play ,we just needed a centre half ,strong midfielder and centre forward to play around. Finding a decent available centre half isn't as easy as it seems ,as the new manager with a full pre season behind him is finding out.

He brought Edgar in who I thought did OK at center half - think we only conceded one goal in his first 5 games. Then the international break came and I heard that he was carrying an injury after that.

 

[oldblade]

I didn't say Wallace was poor quality, just never fit and he has admitted himself it is as much a mental as a physical weakness. I like Scougall and he started out in great form in his first season but I have to admit I now agree with those that say he is too slight to compete against some of the big boys at this level, he just gets pushed aside too often. McNulty has some ability in there but not worth the effort IMO as two managers seem to have discovered. He put a shift in for Pompey on sunday but hardly set the place alight. Coutts, yes I may have been a bit hasty on that he has improved a lot lately.

All four of those players have weaknesses. That is obvious. And I can see why some might not want them in the team. But they are not poor. In my view that is an exaggeration.

As for two managers believing McNulty isn't worth the effort, that is just your interpretation. Maybe Adkins wants him to get game time. Anyway, in a reverse scenario several managers kept picking Montgomery, but it didn't stop many on this forum dissing him week in, week out.

 

[AlienBlade]

You seem to be doing an awful lot of justifying last seasons mess by suggesting that it's no better this season.

My point is that the 2 aren't linked. Clough built an expensive squad, and failed to get anywhere near automatic promotion. It was dreadful to watch, and he got sacked - Nothing to do with Adkins.

Separately, I have issues with what Adkins has done so far. After a third of a season, I'm happy to allow him more time to make up for Clough's, and his own mistakes.

Clough had nearly 2 years to confirm what a decade and a half in management had proved - he's not actually very good at this job. I don't think we should just to rubbish the career of a proven successful manager based on a third of a season. But either way, the two just aren't linked.

UTB

how do you know it was an expensive squad? Adkins has also brought in several supposingly championship/premiership quality players... I suppose these were cheap... and he has brough back players clough had said wasnt good enough (and proved to be the case) and we are still watching dreadful football.. and we are as far behind automatic promotion (despite that being the requirement this season) as we were last season and some would also say its a far weaker league...

I am also simply stating that this seasons mess is far worse than last season... (I may be wrong but I dont think we dropped out of the top 6 last season or if we did it was for a limited time)... yet we are now well out of the top six and falling further and further behind...but he doesnt think we need to get any players in until January... (despite loaning out 2 players which even if we had zero room before would have made room for at least one...especially if this squad was "so expensive"

Clough in his first season (bearing in mind the mess Weir had left him) took us from 20th I think to 7th and the brink of the play offs... half the teams contracts then run out along with various loans which had to go back (meaning he actually was left with no full backs at all contracted to the club) pepole will say Adkins had brought in Edgar to solve the CB problem.. which didnt work... I would refer to Clough bringing in Butler... but didnt work.

the players he brought in managed to remain there or there abouts in the play-offs... (something Adkins is failing to do) in fact he doesnt even seem to see the problems within his squad telling us all how we dont see what Hammond does... and the fact he wont answer direct questions... he seems to be becoming more an more evasive... which says to me he is panicking..

and I would agree the two arent linked but there are stark comparrisons... One felt the wrath of fans... the other is still being rimmed by some... if you dont learn from the past you are destined to repeat it in future...

 

[Bartleby]

All four of those players have weaknesses. That is obvious. And I can see why some might not want them in the team. But they are not poor. In my view that is an exaggeration.

As for two managers believing McNulty isn't worth the effort, that is just your interpretation. Maybe Adkins wants him to get game time. Anyway, in a reverse scenario several managers kept picking Montgomery, but it didn't stop many on this forum dissing him week in, week out.

OK, well we all have our opinions and interpretations. I'll be surprised if McNulty doesn't sign for Pompey.

You can't deny we have way too big a squad and wage bill - what would you do to trim it then?

 

[raul]

Think it's just as likely that there's a lack of wrath AB. I'm all out any way. I was bored shitless and angry from Feb last season, now Im just bored shitless.

 

[alcoblade]

and I would agree the two arent linked but there are stark comparrisons... One felt the wrath of fans... the other is still being rimmed by some... if you dont learn from the past you are destined to repeat it in future...

Let's simplify it;

2 years V 4 months
One has no track record to rely on, one has an exceptional record to rely on
Both have failed in their respective time frames.

Is there any of the above that you disagree with?

Your "rimming" is my "have our fans really become so short sighted"

UTB

 

[oldblade]

OK, well we all have our opinions and interpretations. I'll be surprised if McNulty doesn't sign for Pompey.

You can't deny we have way too big a squad and wage bill - what would you do to trim it then?

There are players who will go. Some of those you mention may be some of the departures, but that is a different thing entirely from saying that they are poor.

 

[Grecian2000]

Let's simplify it;

2 years V 4 months
One has no track record to rely on, one has an exceptional record to rely on
Both have failed in their respective time frames.

Is there any of the above that you disagree with?

Your "rimming" is my "have our fans really become so short sighted"

UTB

Not convinced by this.

It wasn't two years was it? That was my problem with getting rid (and will be again when the Twatterati start bending silly Jim's ear).

It was one full season, albeit a particularly unspectacular one, and a half season (just over) of turning what a lot on here were calling the worst team they'd ever seen for the Blades into FA Cup semi finalists and almost play-off contenders (and playing really well).
Even if he hadn't had that half season of success I would say less than two years is ridiculous unless you are in the Robson/Heath/Weir category of disaster.

I don't think anyone would complain about Adkins taking over BUT his efforts at recruitment and improving what he has is nowhere near what Clough achieved in his first few months. Will he get time to put it right? I fucking hope so because, as I said with Clough, you have to give someone time (otherwise you end up just like us!).

 

[AlienBlade]

Let's simplify it;

2 years V 4 months
One has no track record to rely on, one has an exceptional record to rely on
Both have failed in their respective time frames.

Is there any of the above that you disagree with?

Your "rimming" is my "have our fans really become so short sighted"

UTB

I wouldnt class Adkins record as "exceptional" 4 promotions in 12 years of management, 3 from league 1 and 1 from the championship, he also managed to be relegated with scunthorpe and Reading (not saying it isnt a "good record" but not exceptional...

with regards to Clough he didnt start to manage in the "league" until 2009, in which he managed only in the championship before dropping down a league to manage us (and nearly got us to the play offs in that first season) his first full season he took us to the play-offs... he was then dismissed... some may say may look at his managerial career and ask why he only managed teams like Burton (achieving what you could say was 2 promotions) and the reason was... he didnt want to manage full time as he felt he wanted to raise his kids rather than work full time) he had also never been relegated...

it's also 19 months vs 5 months if you want semantics...

the only thing I whole heartedly agree with is both failed in their respective time frames (however one at least appear to be on a upward trend... (outside play offs in first season in play offs second season) rather than a downward trend.. relegated from the prem, sacked for under achiving in the championship and now cant get a team who were consistantly challanging in the play offs to challange...)

and if I could see something just not quite coming off and us attempting to do things I could quite happily give him all the time as a "work in progress" however he is edging more towards Weir (which was he wasa stubborn and thought he was right even though the results and performances said otherwise)... than Warnock in my estimations

thus far as a Sheffield United Manager he is currently performing worse than Clough in my opinion and Clough was given no quarter despite his rescue of our season in his first season (or 2 semi final appearences) as his fall back... so I dont see why Adkins should get any quarter... its not being short sighted... it's being realistic... he needs to sort this team out and fast! as I mentioned in the previous report... we need to learn from the past so as not to repeat it in the future... he came in telling us we were going to play attacking football... thus far I have failed to see it... even against poor teams such as Worcester, Crewe etc.

 

[AlienBlade]

Not convinced by this.

It wasn't two years was it? That was my problem with getting rid (and will be again when the Twatterati start bending silly Jim's ear).

It was one full season, albeit a particularly unspectacular one, and a half season (just over) of turning what a lot on here were calling the worst team they'd ever seen for the Blades into FA Cup semi finalists and almost play-off contenders (and playing really well).
Even if he hadn't had that half season of success I would say less than two years is ridiculous unless you are in the Robson/Heath/Weir category of disaster.

I don't think anyone would complain about Adkins taking over BUT his efforts at recruitment and improving what he has is nowhere near what Clough achieved in his first few months. Will he get time to put it right? I fucking hope so because, as I said with Clough, you have to give someone time (otherwise you end up just like us!).

I would agree with that, but Adkins needs to look like he is trying to fix it... otherwise we will end up with another Weir... if we looked like we were doing something about it I would gladly give him time... I just done see it at the moment. (I was more than happy with Adkins coming in, despite not wanting Clough sacked) however he as thus far failed to "fill up my senses" (well not in a positive way anyway)

 

[alcoblade]

I wouldnt class Adkins record as "exceptional" 4 promotions in 12 years of management, 3 from league 1 and 1 from the championship, he also managed to be relegated with scunthorpe and Reading (not saying it isnt a "good record" but not exceptional...

with regards to Clough he didnt start to manage in the "league" until 2009, in which he managed only in the championship before dropping down a league to manage us (and nearly got us to the play offs in that first season) his first full season he took us to the play-offs... he was then dismissed... some may say may look at his managerial career and ask why he only managed teams like Burton (achieving what you could say was 2 promotions) and the reason was... he didnt want to manage full time as he felt he wanted to raise his kids rather than work full time) he had also never been relegated...

it's also 19 months vs 5 months if you want semantics...

the only thing I whole heartedly agree with is both failed in their respective time frames (however one at least appear to be on a upward trend... (outside play offs in first season in play offs second season) rather than a downward trend.. relegated from the prem, sacked for under achiving in the championship and now cant get a team who were consistantly challanging in the play offs to challange...)

and if I could see something just not quite coming off and us attempting to do things I could quite happily give him all the time as a "work in progress" however he is edging more towards Weir (which was he wasa stubborn and thought he was right even though the results and performances said otherwise)... than Warnock in my estimations

thus far as a Sheffield United Manager he is currently performing worse than Clough in my opinion and Clough was given no quarter despite his rescue of our season in his first season (or 2 semi final appearences) as his fall back... so I dont see why Adkins should get any quarter... its not being short sighted... it's being realistic... he needs to sort this team out and fast! as I mentioned in the previous report... we need to learn from the past so as not to repeat it in the future... he came in telling us we were going to play attacking football... thus far I have failed to see it... even against poor teams such as Worcester, Crewe etc.

I agree it's not going well now - but what are you suggesting, pulling the trigger again? If not, we are in complete agreement.

Did you want to stick with Clough? If so, I don't agree.

We can debate the scale of track records, and what is "exceptional". What isn't up for any serious debate is that Adkins track record is far, far better than Clough's.

I'm not inclined to go into the minutiae of decisions along the way, suffice to say Clough made loads of mistakes. Adkins has continued to make them.

 

[sitwell]

I agree it's not going well now - but what are you suggesting, pulling the trigger again? If not, we are in complete agreement.

Did you want to stick with Clough? If so, I don't agree.

We can debate the scale of track records, and what is "exceptional". What isn't up for any serious debate is that Adkins track record is far, far better than Clough's.

I'm not inclined to go into the minutiae of decisions along the way, suffice to say Clough made loads of mistakes. Adkins has continued to make them.

I think Alien thinks the same as me ,we both want stability and don't want Adkins fired ,but we both wanted stability and didn't want Clough fired. Track records mean nothing ,you have to live in the present not the past ,Aidy Boothroyd being a classic example ,David Moyes another.
Im not keen on this nice guy Mr Adkins ,like Stinky Pete he wants to be everyones friend ,you cant do that in management (not in football anyway) ,he has to start getting a mean streak and get more out of his team.
Personally I think he has done an awful job so far ,but he has time to turn it round.

 

[LSF]

I think Alien thinks the same as me ,we both want stability and don't want Adkins fired ,but we both wanted stability and didn't want Clough fired. Track records mean nothing ,you have to live in the present not the past ,Aidy Boothroyd being a classic example ,David Moyes another.
Im not keen on this nice guy Mr Adkins ,like Stinky Pete he wants to be everyones friend ,you cant do that in management (not in football anyway) ,he has to start getting a mean streak and get more out of his team.
Personally I think he has done an awful job so far ,but he has time to turn it round.

I think that sums it up nicely for me too.
I was angry at Cloughs sacking, not because he thrilled me as a manager, but his record on paper with us was hardly duff. I want continuity instead of kneejerk moves.
Adkins is a little too mealy mouthed for my liking and he's hardly set us alight with performance and signings. But despite that, for fucks sake let's give the bloke a decent chance to succeed or fail before he's pushed through the revolving door.

 

[Bartleby]

There are players who will go. Some of those you mention may be some of the departures, but that is a different thing entirely from saying that they are poor.

Well it's all about opinions isn't it? That's what you get on football forums, it's what makes them maddening but also the only thing that makes them interesting.. I said some of the players are poor, my subjective opinion which I have a right to hold. So I asked you for yours and all I got was "Some of those you mention may be some of the departures" - is that it??

 

[oldblade]

Well it's all about opinions isn't it? That's what you get on football forums, it's what makes them maddening but also the only thing that makes them interesting.. I said some of the players are poor, my subjective opinion which I have a right to hold. So I asked you for yours and all I got was "Some of those you mention may be some of the departures" - is that it??

Do I have to have an opinion. Always thought it wasn't compulsory, but just for you

Personally, I would look to get rid of both goalkeepers, Collins, Higdon, Woolford and McFadzean for starters. I would send Hammond back. If Cuvelier isn't going to get near the first team matchday squad he should also go as well. Personally I would like to see more of him before getting rid, but if he's unlikely to figure he is just taking up squad space.

I think James Wallace should have until the end of the season so that we can see if he can stay free from injury. If he ends up in the treatment room again I think we have to give up on him.

Obviously these departures depend on whether or not we can get better replacements.

Players I would keep for now are Done, Adams, JKR, Sharp, Sammon, Brayford, Basham,Coutts, Scougall, Freeman, Baxter, Harris, Wallace K, and probably Reed.

Haven't made my mind up about Kennedy (probably stay for now), McEveley, Alcock and Mcgahey, but probably two of those need to go.

Edit - would also keep Edgar if fit.

 

[alcoblade]

I think Alien thinks the same as me ,we both want stability and don't want Adkins fired ,but we both wanted stability and didn't want Clough fired. Track records mean nothing ,you have to live in the present not the past ,Aidy Boothroyd being a classic example ,David Moyes another.
Im not keen on this nice guy Mr Adkins ,like Stinky Pete he wants to be everyones friend ,you cant do that in management (not in football anyway) ,he has to start getting a mean streak and get more out of his team.
Personally I think he has done an awful job so far ,but he has time to turn it round.

I disagree though, track records are all you have to go on. How else do you assess the likelihood of any outcome? Boothroyd didn't have a track record. Moyes never proved he was a winner.

You could see it in Clough's track record, and 2 years later everything I predicted panned out.

I didn't want Clough in he first place, but at this stage of his tenure though he was confirming what his career had suggested and what I thought, I was very supportive, despite results being poor.

I'm totally amazed how many people have been so influenced by a few months work over a successful career.

As an aside, as a fellow Warnock fan, I'm surprised you are putting such significance in his PR front. All the best managers either talk shite or give next to nothing away on public.

UTB

 

[blade too long]

All four of those players have weaknesses. That is obvious. And I can see why some might not want them in the team. But they are not poor. In my view that is an exaggeration.

.

of course they have weaknesses
that why they are playing in league one

some people expect faultless performances out of our players
aint going to happen
Adkins job is polishing them a bit to shine above the rest , needs time