Next season squad and formation

[CPB]

As has been touted the board would like the new manager to play 3-5-2 in the hope that as many of the squad can be utilised for a rebuild in the summer.

I can understand this however I'd also say the remit of the new manager is also to offer alternative formations and style.
Although firstly the need to get these players fresher in the mind as well as I energy levels is probably the most important. Clean slate don't dwell but learn and all that.

With "news" talks with Slavisa are set to begin I can imagine that he will want to do as he wishes with the squad. Something which actually is best all round, you don't want to hinder from the get go. I don't think he's one to put up with much given how long he seems to stay in jobs!

As have been mentioned by many others about who stays and who goes.
Aside from our assets in Berge etc. Moving on Rodwell, Foderingham or Moore, Lundstram, j.robinson to start with.
I can't say Burke impresses me too much but his pace is impressive.
Mousset if fit again could be ridiculous in the champ. If not he's not gonna do much.
L.freeman if he can get fit again welcome him back. But seems to be struggling, which I think is why he was loaned out for all those who think Wilder was mad.
Alot of the rest I'd not be wanting to rid of.

RnD could be a good should for lcb role if we play that way in Jocs absence. There's a worry on joc that he won't be the same again.

Bring in few good midfielders and maybe some who can play as wingers so we can play a different way sometimes too?

 

[BladeTillIDie]

We definitely need to sign a new LCB if O'Connell isn't right and sign a new midfield.

Let's not make the same mistake wilder made by not addressing this.

 

[bakeblade]

As has been touted the board would like the new manager to play 3-5-2 in the hope that as many of the squad can be utilised for a rebuild in the summer.

I can understand this however I'd also say the remit of the new manager is also to offer alternative formations and style.
Although firstly the need to get these players fresher in the mind as well as I energy levels is probably the most important. Clean slate don't dwell but learn and all that.

With "news" talks with Slavisa are set to begin I can imagine that he will want to do as he wishes with the squad. Something which actually is best all round, you don't want to hinder from the get go. I don't think he's one to put up with much given how long he seems to stay in jobs!

As have been mentioned by many others about who stays and who goes.
Aside from our assets in Berge etc. Moving on Rodwell, Foderingham or Moore, Lundstram, j.robinson to start with.
I can't say Burke impresses me too much but his pace is impressive.
Mousset if fit again could be ridiculous in the champ. If not he's not gonna do much.
L.freeman if he can get fit again welcome him back. But seems to be struggling, which I think is why he was loaned out for all those who think Wilder was mad.
Alot of the rest I'd not be wanting to rid of.

RnD could be a good should for lcb role if we play that way in Jocs absence. There's a worry on joc that he won't be the same again.

Bring in few good midfielders and maybe some who can play as wingers so we can play a different way sometimes too?

I think we need to ditch the Wilder/Knill system, it's just too specialised. Interesting to read Kieren Dowell saying recently he never got to grips with it, he much prefers the Norwich system of overloading in more central areas.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I think we need to ditch the Wilder/Knill system, it's just too specialised. Interesting to read Kieren Dowell saying recently he never got to grips with it, he much prefers the Norwich system of overloading in more central areas.

Same as moving to 4-4-2, the issue is we don’t have as good players in other systems. The reason that system was developed was to limit our weakness and build on the strengths of the players we could attract. You change formation then you’ll 9 or 10 new players rather than just a new midfield.

We definitely need to sign a new LCB if O'Connell isn't right and sign a new midfield.

Let's not make the same mistake wilder made by not addressing this.

There’s a possibility that RND could be used in that role, especially if we can’t move on Stevens.

 

[Withington Blade]

I think we need to ditch the Wilder/Knill system, it's just too specialised. Interesting to read Kieren Dowell saying recently he never got to grips with it, he much prefers the Norwich system of overloading in more central areas.

To be fair, it was great when it was working. The first 4 years of CW/AK were the most enjoyable I have witnessed. However, with hindsight it now seems completely negligent to have built a squad that is incapable of adapting to any other system. Sadly, I think the jigs up for the ‘wide overload’ now and we need to devise a new style of playing.

 

[bakeblade]

Same as moving to 4-4-2, the issue is we don’t have as good players in other systems. The reason that system was developed was to limit our weakness and build on the strengths of the players we could attract. You change formation then you’ll 9 or 10 new players rather than just a new midfield.



There’s a possibility that RND could be used in that role, especially if we can’t move on Stevens.

Actually the system was introduced to break down teams sitting back in division 1. It was incredibly successful so was kept, too long in my opinion.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Actually the system was introduced to break down teams sitting back in division 1. It was incredibly successful so was kept, too long in my opinion.

Thats a fair point, however it was retained in the Championship and Premier league to enable us to punch above our weight with inferior players, and it worked.
The issue for me this season has been we had no depth even in that limited quality so losing JoC and the loss of form of the midfield meant we had no one able to come in. Once the confidence in the team eroded then it was dead.
The formation still has merit and would be effective next season but the squad needs to be refreshed, particularly the midfield which needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Champagneblade]

Is there really much difference between playing 3-5-2 and playing 4-3-3?

You're only moving a player out of defence and into the forward line. The rest is more or less the same.

We're going to want whomever plays wide defensively to bomb on, aren't we? So there isn't much change in the wide defensive areas.

The middle of the pitch is made up of a midfield three. So not going to change the set up there though personnel may change.

Up front one of the forwards will remain central and the other will do a little more work out wide potentially.

Take yesterday's line up for instance. If you had subbed off Bryan for Brewster then you'd be immediately at a back 4, you'd already have the central 3, McGoldrick would move slightly left, where he often occupies anyway, Burke would move wide right and Brewster down the middle.

It's not necessarily the baby/bathwater scenario the Board are perhaps worrying about.

In fact if it is more of a 4-3-1-2, then it's not so different to what got us promoted before only that instead of a third centre half you have that person pushing up to midfield.

Let see what the new manager brings. Interesting they Jokanovic plays 4-3-3 and Clement plays 5-3-2 and 4-3-3 and these formations are what the U23s and U18s play anyway.

 

[bakeblade]

Thats a fair point, however it was retained in the Championship and Premier league to enable us to punch above our weight with inferior players, and it worked.
The issue for me this season has been we had no depth even in that limited quality so losing JoC and the loss of form of the midfield meant we had no one able to come in. Once the confidence in the team eroded then it was dead.
The formation still has merit and would be effective next season but the squad needs to be refreshed, particularly the midfield which needs a complete overhaul.

I might be wrong but I can't think of any other team that has such a rigid formation, that cannot be changed no matter what. In modern football you need to be adaptable and change systems to counter the opposition and keep them guessing. To keep playing the same system is just madness.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I might be wrong but I can't think of any other team that has such a rigid formation, that cannot be changed no matter what. In modern football you need to be adaptable and change systems to counter the opposition and keep them guessing. To keep playing the same system is just madness.

I don’t disagree, but the level we’re at with the players we have there isn’t an alternate right now. Our players just aren’t technically able to adapt and aren’t good enough to say go to a 4 at the back with Egan and Basham. They’d get destroyed, worse than we have been because they don’t have the ability. Same as Midfield, how do you build a decent 4 man midfield with what we have? Norwood and Fleck are shadows of what they were, Osborne is Monty reskinned, tries incredibly hard, gives everything but ultimately limited and not good enough to be starting. Out wide you’re probably hoping Burke won’t do too much damage out that to us but he isn’t looking upto it, and I’m guessing most would try and use Bogle out right but he’s inconsistent (understandably) and struggling to get fit.
If we stick with the formation then Egan and Bash are probably OK for another year in a 3. Maybe try to slide RND into the left sided CH and you’re set defensively.
A total midfield rebuild is needed whatever formation we go to, but Brewster, McBurnie, Sharp and Dids should be Ok at the lower level. Buy a midfield which can adapt then at least there’s an option for change but without JoC the current defence would struggle to play as a 4 no matter what we do.

 

[bakeblade]

I don’t disagree, but the level we’re at with the players we have there isn’t an alternate right now. Our players just aren’t technically able to adapt and aren’t good enough to say go to a 4 at the back with Egan and Basham. They’d get destroyed, worse than we have been because they don’t have the ability. Same as Midfield, how do you build a decent 4 man midfield with what we have? Norwood and Fleck are shadows of what they were, Osborne is Monty reskinned, tries incredibly hard, gives everything but ultimately limited and not good enough to be starting. Out wide you’re probably hoping Burke won’t do too much damage out that to us but he isn’t looking upto it, and I’m guessing most would try and use Bogle out right but he’s inconsistent (understandably) and struggling to get fit.

It's a mess, mate isn't it

 

[adiosmiamigo]

It's a mess, mate isn't it

Other teams seem to be able to change systems during the course of 90 minutes, why not us?

 

[Rodley]

5-3-2 with a new Number 10. Couple of new middies on top of that if the young uns aren’t ready.

 

[S40BLADE]

5-3-2

View attachment SANNAHcry.mp4

 

[Shoes_On]

These are elite level footballers, not under 10s. They shouldn't have any problem getting used to a new formation

 

[bakeblade]

Other teams seem to be able to change systems during the course of 90 minutes, why not us?

Well that's the problem, we do actually change formation during the game, sometimes a few times. The trouble is it's only when we are losing, we seem incapable of trying a different starting formation

 

[bakeblade]

These are elite level footballers, not under 10s. They shouldn't have any problem getting used to a new formation

Exactly

 

[SouthportBlade]

Formation isn't overly concerning (its just a few numbers) its all about how a team plays.

What systems, what roles, what responsibilities, what patterns of play, what attitudes, what interplay, what you do to adapt to other teams etc etc

Could be 532, could be 352, could be 3412, could be 442 or anything - If you have a something that works, then your golden.

We could play 352 next year with the same players and it be night and day from what we are currently witnessing

Our formations didn't change under Wilder, but fundamentally the way we played and the way teams play us changed. This left us looking like a bunch of competition winners playing against seasoned professionals.

The staunch single-mindedness of not recognising this, along with the entire recruitment strategy being based on a specific system are just 2 of a number of factors that have seen us come unstuck.

Thats why formation and players are secondary, get the right manager in and the rest follows.

 

[ancientblade]

I don’t disagree, but the level we’re at with the players we have there isn’t an alternate right now. Our players just aren’t technically able to adapt and aren’t good enough to say go to a 4 at the back with Egan and Basham. They’d get destroyed, worse than we have been because they don’t have the ability. Same as Midfield, how do you build a decent 4 man midfield with what we have? Norwood and Fleck are shadows of what they were, Osborne is Monty reskinned, tries incredibly hard, gives everything but ultimately limited and not good enough to be starting. Out wide you’re probably hoping Burke won’t do too much damage out that to us but he isn’t looking upto it, and I’m guessing most would try and use Bogle out right but he’s inconsistent (understandably) and struggling to get fit.
If we stick with the formation then Egan and Bash are probably OK for another year in a 3. Maybe try to slide RND into the left sided CH and you’re set defensively.
A total midfield rebuild is needed whatever formation we go to, but Brewster, McBurnie, Sharp and Dids should be Ok at the lower level. Buy a midfield which can adapt then at least there’s an option for change but without JoC the current defence would struggle to play as a 4 no matter what we do.

egan will be sold joc probably wont be fit for august and basham has just about had his day so were gonna need at least 2 new centre backs and should be able to play a back 4 in the championship just play either 4231 or 433 which would be my preference but definetly need 3 more midfielders to come in i reckon we will need 7 new signings this summer hopefully jokanovic will be brought in and play an aggresive attacking 433 system

 

[Rodley]

View attachment 112483

It’s all about what’s best suited to get us back at the first attempt, so...

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

egan will be sold joc probably wont be fit for august and basham has just about had his day so were gonna need at least 2 new centre backs and should be able to play a back 4 in the championship just play either 4231 or 433 which would be my preference but definetly need 3 more midfielders to come in i reckon we will need 7 new signings this summer hopefully jokanovic will be brought in and play an aggresive attacking 433 system

I definitely think a 4-3-3 could be built from what remains of the squad but yeah I think you’re looking at £20m spend and extensive use of the loans. McBurnie, Brewster and Dids could play as a front three with Billy supporting from the bench with maybe a kid or two.
That front three would need a midfield that does its creative heavily lifting though, but you wouldn’t want a 10, as Dids and McBurnie come deep. So it would be a deeper midfield with players who can run with the ball to create chances. We don’t have that player.
Then you need your two top championship quality centre halves.


Sticking with what we have you could have a back 3 or RND/JoC, Egan, Bash. Baldock/Bogle on the right, Bogle/Lowe on the left or Enda if we can’t move him on. Two deeper midfielders like Berge (who’s likely to go) who are defensively minded but can drive on with the ball and then a No10 behind a front two. You’re replacing the midfield but that’s needed whatever we do, but then you’re only replacing those that leave and I’d be using the loan market.

 

[Keef Chedwyn]

Saturday.....

Manager: I want you up and down that left wing today, all the way from our defence right up to their defence. Get some crosses in and that.

Player: Reyt

Tuesday.....

Manager: I want you up and down that left but not as advanced today, there'll be a lad in front of you.

Player: Can't expect me to adapt like that gaffer

Manager: Think I need a new player for this completely insane new system. Son's crying, nice one.

 

[pommpey]

I do think that a rewrite of formation and strategy is needed. 5-3-2 (as is at the moment, and not 3-5-2) is readable and beatable. The overloads in the wide areas are easily countered and lead to us being countered easily, or simply surrendering possession. As much as the arrival of Heckingbottom heralded change, it's not happened. Either he, or the players are simply dogs who know no new tricks. I don't think this is evident throughout the team, but certainly the midfield and backline seem welded to it like a favourite dummy.

If players are unable to change, then they need to go. Obviously, we are losing Berge, but with him should go Lundstram, Fleck and definitely Norwood. The three across the centre are our achilles heel and everyone knows it and gets goals through it. If they know it this season, they'll know it next, regardless of any assumed drop in quality of our opponents.

We need to change the numbers game and compete in midfield and the only way to do that is pack it with four players. With this, we have the option of:

3-4-3, (3-4-1-2, 3-4-2-1),
4-4-2, (4-4-1-1)
5-4-1

Either way, the extra man gives options, cover and above else, competitive bite to keep the play in the centre pf the park facing forward instead of everything going up one side, back to Egan/Ramsdale/Norwood and up the other side a-la 'Wilderball'. Yesterday was so much of that it was sickening. We were going nowhere because as soon as they stopped us, it went backwards. The front two are unfed and resorted to chasing opportunities, instead of capitalising off them and our midfield simply doesn't threaten.

So, moving ahead, the expected cull is gonna be brutal and effective. The survivors should be:

3-4-1-2

--------------------------------------------------------------Ramsdale*----------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------Basham--------------------------------Egan*------------------------------O'Connell*-------------------

-----Baldock*------------------------------Bogle-------------------------------Osborn---------------------------RND----------

----------------------------------------------------------McGoldrick------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------Brewster-------------------------------------------McBurnie---------------------------------

Note: Assuming * players stay. We also will have to quickly run the midfield die nut down all the central four if no effective replacements are inbound. But to me this is the most effective lineup in this system with 'no changes'

Given that rethreading players in short time may not have the effect need, we then need to revert to basics and play versions of 4-4-2. Boring, but solid provided we play steady football and don't get too ambitious against fast, counterattacking sides. From that, now with five in midfield:

4-3-2-1

---------------------------------------------------------------Ramsdale*-----------------------------------------------------

-----------Baldock------------------------Egan----------------------------------O'Connell-------------------RND---------

------------------------Bogle----------------------------(Basham/NEW)-------------------------Osborn-------------------

----------------------------------McGoldrick-----------------------------(NEW/L Freeman)---------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------McBurnie-----------------------------------------------------------

This gives us adequate cover if Bash sits and covers the back four whilst Bogle-Didsy-Freeman-Osborn work forward to feed McBurnie in a modified 4-1-4-1

Then if defending deep against pressure we revert to a 5-4-1 it's pretty fundamental but we must - must - retain that numbers game in the middle to win the battles and retain possession and get up the pitch. Currently we can't even do that. Creating gaps and weaknesses has to stop now. We need rid of the current trio - good luck to the lads and thanks, but it's time to move on and build.

pommpey

 

[Carlton Blade]

Be versatile ffs. Systems and formations should be flexible.

 

[adiosmiamigo]

Well that's the problem, we do actually change formation during the game, sometimes a few times. The trouble is it's only when we are losing, we seem incapable of trying a different starting formation

The modern game is all about changing the system to counteratact the oppositions system , any halfway decent coach/manager should be able to do that.

I do think that a rewrite of formation and strategy is needed. 5-3-2 (as is at the moment, and not 3-5-2) is readable and beatable. The overloads in the wide areas are easily countered and lead to us being countered easily, or simply surrendering possession. As much as the arrival of Heckingbottom heralded change, it's not happened. Either he, or the players are simply dogs who know no new tricks. I don't think this is evident throughout the team, but certainly the midfield and backline seem welded to it like a favourite dummy.

If players are unable to change, then they need to go. Obviously, we are losing Berge, but with him should go Lundstram, Fleck and definitely Norwood. The three across the centre are our achilles heel and everyone knows it and gets goals through it. If they know it this season, they'll know it next, regardless of any assumed drop in quality of our opponents.

We need to change the numbers game and compete in midfield and the only way to do that is pack it with four players. With this, we have the option of:

3-4-3, (3-4-1-2, 3-4-2-1),
4-4-2, (4-4-1-1)
5-4-1

Either way, the extra man gives options, cover and above else, competitive bite to keep the play in the centre pf the park facing forward instead of everything going up one side, back to Egan/Ramsdale/Norwood and up the other side a-la 'Wilderball'. Yesterday was so much of that it was sickening. We were going nowhere because as soon as they stopped us, it went backwards. The front two are unfed and resorted to chasing opportunities, instead of capitalising off them and our midfield simply doesn't threaten.

So, moving ahead, the expected cull is gonna be brutal and effective. The survivors should be:

3-4-1-2

--------------------------------------------------------------Ramsdale*----------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------Basham--------------------------------Egan*------------------------------O'Connell*-------------------

-----Baldock*------------------------------Bogle-------------------------------Osborn---------------------------RND----------

----------------------------------------------------------McGoldrick------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------Brewster-------------------------------------------McBurnie---------------------------------

Note: Assuming * players stay. We also will have to quickly run the midfield die nut down all the central four if no effective replacements are inbound. But to me this is the most effective lineup in this system with 'no changes'

Given that rethreading players in short time may not have the effect need, we then need to revert to basics and play versions of 4-4-2. Boring, but solid provided we play steady football and don't get too ambitious against fast, counterattacking sides. From that, now with five in midfield:

4-3-2-1

---------------------------------------------------------------Ramsdale*-----------------------------------------------------

-----------Baldock------------------------Egan----------------------------------O'Connell-------------------RND---------

------------------------Bogle----------------------------(Basham/NEW)-------------------------Osborn-------------------

----------------------------------McGoldrick-----------------------------(NEW/L Freeman)---------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------McBurnie-----------------------------------------------------------

This gives us adequate cover if Bash sits and covers the back four whilst Bogle-Didsy-Freeman-Osborn work forward to feed McBurnie in a modified 4-1-4-1

Then if defending deep against pressure we revert to a 5-4-1 it's pretty fundamental but we must - must - retain that numbers game in the middle to win the battles and retain possession and get up the pitch. Currently we can't even do that. Creating gaps and weaknesses has to stop now. We need rid of the current trio - good luck to the lads and thanks, but it's time to move on and build.

pommpey

The priority for next season has to be players who have got pace and do NOT give the ball away with monotonous regularity thereby instrumental in giving the opposition goal-scoring opportunities.

 

[Snowflake]

As has been touted the board would like the new manager to play 3-5-2 in the hope that as many of the squad can be utilised for a rebuild in the summer.

I can understand this however I'd also say the remit of the new manager is also to offer alternative formations and style.
Although firstly the need to get these players fresher in the mind as well as I energy levels is probably the most important. Clean slate don't dwell but learn and all that.

With "news" talks with Slavisa are set to begin I can imagine that he will want to do as he wishes with the squad. Something which actually is best all round, you don't want to hinder from the get go. I don't think he's one to put up with much given how long he seems to stay in jobs!

As have been mentioned by many others about who stays and who goes.
Aside from our assets in Berge etc. Moving on Rodwell, Foderingham or Moore, Lundstram, j.robinson to start with.
I can't say Burke impresses me too much but his pace is impressive.
Mousset if fit again could be ridiculous in the champ. If not he's not gonna do much.
L.freeman if he can get fit again welcome him back. But seems to be struggling, which I think is why he was loaned out for all those who think Wilder was mad.
Alot of the rest I'd not be wanting to rid of.

RnD could be a good should for lcb role if we play that way in Jocs absence. There's a worry on joc that he won't be the same again.

Bring in few good midfielders and maybe some who can play as wingers so we can play a different way sometimes too?

Isn’t Burke a winger?

 

[blade67]

It's almost impossible to know what we need as a fan, because they have pretty much all been terrible this season. However, many of these same players have looked excellent in the Championship or in the Premier league only recently.

There are 4 or 5 obvious departures due to fringe players out of contract, I can't see any of them being given another year. I'm also sure 2 or 3 will be sold, but I can't say I'll be distraught if any particular player leaves.

What's left, (15 or 16 players, plus some kids) will be a decent Championship squad but as ever it will all be down to the next manager in terms of who he brings in and how he motivates the players.

Whilst we've started with a similar formation for all of Wilder's time in charge he regularly changed it during games when it wasn't working and I'm less concerned about how we line up than having a united squad prepared to work their bollocks off and enough quality on show to turn a game when it all gets a bit "Championship battle"

 

[ancientblade]

if we continue to want to play 3 at the back it has to be 343 for me personally i would prefer 433

 

[Nah den]

The standard of football in the Championship is terrible. We'll piss it next season.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

The standard of football in the Championship is terrible. We'll piss it next season.

I wouldn't exactly say it's terrible but having seen the championship on Quest most weeks it varies from having 5 or 6 decent teams to the rest being very inconsistent in the middle and really really poor at the bottom.

If we accept the challenge like Norwich and Watford and to a degree, Bournemouth, and don't feel fucking sorry for ourselves, revert back to 3412 and sign a couple of decent players we'll do pretty well.

For some of our fans that think we'll be poor - i'd say you haven't watched the championship this season. Teams give it away cheaply - and this echoes what CW always used to say "It's what you do in possession and also out of possession". If we can get a manager/coaches that will maintain the type of play we did v Everton and get back to a consistent 3 and GK in defence then we'll do very well.

By hook or by crook if we can start with Rammers, Bash, Egan and JOC (it's vital in my book), then there's no reason to fear the Championship next season.

Did any of you hear what Pickford said after Sundays game - he called it attitude - we need to maintain that in the last 2 games, pick it up again in pre-season (a proper one) then go again from the off (with Fleck STARTING from game 1, not game 4, 5 or 6 !!)

UTB