My take ...

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I remember first watching Norwood when he came on loan and thinking, he’s the midfielder we’ve needed at United for years.
What a ping he’s got. And one of those players, I just love to watch.
Of course every single pass he hits doesn’t find the man, but no player can do that.Not even Messi.
Even when things aren’t going well, he’s always there showing for the ball, and trying to get us on the front foot.That takes a lot of guts, where some players might hide.
The point is, he’s such a creative player, and makes us tick.The first on any team sheet for Wilder and Hecky.Maybe they know a thing or two about football.
He’s been part of a journey under Wilder and Hecky, that believe me, has been fantastic compared to those awful lean years we had before them.
Didn’t hear much complaint about him when we were 5th, and ended up finishing 9th in the Prem.What a season!
He’s clearly one of the best midfielders in the Championship, and the envy of most managers in this league.
We can debate whether he can cut it in the Prem,although he has, till the cows come home,but the point is we’re in the Championship, and need to get out of there first.To my mind there is no better player, in the club,or out there who we could realistically get, who could help us get there, other than him.End of.Get behind him and the lads, and you never know, we might just do it.
 

Reyt win. Considering how weakened we are and we'd been turned over by the Millers midweek this looked set to be a further setback even if it were a stale, sterile 0-0. Certainly the first half suggested it was going to be that way. No McBurnie to terrorise their poor central defenders and what looked like a real pedestrian, uninspired and frankly tired approach, United looked like they'd be lucky to get anything out of today. There was also a chance we could have simply given up and let Cardiff - a pretty shit side all over the park - snatch the win and put us down the chasing pack.

First 45 there seemed to be a real disconnect with the usual suspects - midfield - playing a far too safe and careful manner and unwilling to drive up the park and put Cardiff on the back foot. We also looked vulnerable at the back with too many opportunities opening up for Cardiff's generally useless front two to fuck up. It only took one of the chances to go in to see us panic further and over-react and go further behind. Not like us to go to Cardiff as favourites and come away holding our manhoods cheap is it?

To be honest, another fucking hamstring injury to another key player didn't help us at all. Although JLTs first chuck into the mix was pretty poor, Cardiff aren't great at defending this stuff and maybe later throws may have given us better fayre. But on comes Clark and we simply look like we are playing a 4-3 training passing games in grids all over the park. We just didn't seem to wat to turn anything toward feeding Billy and Illiman to put them in. Pass-pass-pass ... back to Fods ... pass-pass-pass. Okay, possession means the opposition hasn't got the ball and we aren't under pressure. But if that is all we do, how do we win a game that depends on goals scored to be victorious? Passing it about, even if we showboat it off several keepy uppies to a chorus of 'ole's' means fuck all when it comes down to points gained. First half was just that. The only player who looked capable was Arbtaster, jinky runs and clever passes but fuck all to show for it.

Massive surprise and a huge 'What the fuck are you doing, Hecky?' to see McAtee on for Arblaster at the start of the second half. Surely get rid of the 'all fart but no stink' Osborn? Yeah, me too. I was fearing McAtee getting bullied and Osborn turning so many concentric circles that he actually disappears in a haze of soil and grass. But lo! Two minutes in and he's clean on goal. A square pass puts Billy in with a tap in. He fucks it up but lo, again, we don't give it up and spend the next ten minutes savaging Cardiff amidships. United look determined and pissed off all of a sudden and fuck me did it not look good? Okay, we can't score for fucking toffee, but we look a lot better for it. We are attacking on all flanks, Wing Backs, Midfield and even the Centrebacks are having a pop. Some great corners go in and we move, as a team, up the pitch. Then McAtee is involved ... again ... and Baldock picks their pockets and steams in on goal cracking in a great near post shot between keeper and near post. One fucking nil. Actually, thoroughly deserved if anything and one to defend and hold onto. Top of the table is at stake, or at least a top two position into the international break.

Can't henestly say Cardiff deserved anything out of this game and possibly Roy will confirm that later if some of their more honest fans come clean about their shortcomings. I was worried we wouldn't manage the lead enough and let them go level - this nearly happened - but let's face it, we were still the better side as bad as we played even in the first half.

Whichever way up you look at it, this keeps us in the fight now and the backroom staff has a game on its hands with the decompression of the squad between now and December 10th and getting everyone match fit and ready to be selected and playing for the intense Christmas into New Year period. Come out of that unbeaten and I reckon we are up. Fail to win in six and we will struggle. We need no repeats of the last catastrophic break.

Foderingham 6/10: Not a massive amount to do. Rooted firmly to the spot for two of their fucked up headers from six yards
Baldock 7.5/10: Busy as fuck up and down the flank and a well-taken goal
Basham 6/10: Hot and cold for him. Usually 'Mr Always Does The Right Thing' and now not so much. His experience shone through in the second half though
Egan 6.5/10: Between him and the other centrebacks I was disappointed to see, say, Robinson steal in with a free header and their front two pretty much not muscled out of aerial challenges especially during the first half. Better in the second, but not by much
Robinson (unmarked): really disappointed to see him crocked. I know this will please some who see him as a liability but for me he is an improved player regardless of mishaps recently
Stevens 6.5/10: A more dogged outing from him and better in some aspects of defending against a more nimble attacking threat
Arblaster 7/10: Our best player in the first half. Clever, forward-looking and tricky. No idea why he was subbed. Paired with McAtee I think we'd have been better in the second half going forward
Norwood 6.5/10: Some good, some bad. First half he was reduced to the long ball game which gave us nowt. Got stuck in and tackled and played some clever ground passes as the game grew. Free kicks shit though. Floating balls over is ploppy bobbar Sunday League stuff
Osborn 5/10: Another iffy, achieves-little-for-effort-made performance from him
Sharp 5/10: Bang average and only that. He's our only option now though and its a disappointing one at that
NDaiye 7.5/10: Reduced to fetching and carrying for much of the game and playing basically on his own. GLTTL in Qatar. Please come back uninjured and as dedicated to the shirt please

Clark 6/10: Solid enough although as guilty for letting Cardiff into gaps between him and Egan. Stole a goal off Egan.
McAtee 8/10: On fire second half. Some great runs at them and coming inside onto his favoured foot
Khadra (unmarked) Not enough time to have an impact and on for the wrong striker IMHO

HJ&SMcM 7/10: Great win with some puzzling alignments of players and substitutes but we are past the finish line now with regard recovery from injuries with December onwards with which to return with a better squad to push on.

pommpey

Short on time today so, good report, and you are too hard on Osborn!
 
What do we all feel if we gain the holy grail of the Premier League? Is this team of Wilderball hasbeens good enough? Norwood, no, not a hope in hell. He has moments of brilliance, but his consistency is poor, and he is easily taken out of the game.
Norwood is consistently the best midfielder in this division, objectively.
 
I remember first watching Norwood when he came on loan and thinking, he’s the midfielder we’ve needed at United for years.

Agreed

What a ping he’s got. And one of those players, I just love to watch.

But it gives us fuck all these days. It did do when we had JOC and Bash as overlapping CBs and Fleck/Lundstram as 'third men' with Billy and Leon in the box. But that's years ago now.

Of course every single pass he hits doesn’t find the man, but no player can do that.Not even Messi.

Hang on. 'The SkyBet Stats' sez it does

Even when things aren’t going well, he’s always there showing for the ball, and trying to get us on the front foot.That takes a lot of guts, where some players might hide.

C'mon. There's been some matches, even recently, when he's been a bit anonymous. Usually when the opposition press him and deny him space to boot it to the wingbacks

The point is, he’s such a creative player, and makes us tick.The first on any team sheet for Wilder and Hecky.Maybe they know a thing or two about football.

Maybe they do. Wilder, maybe not. He couldn't energise anything when we were getting whupped each week, could he? Just kept doing the same thing, week in, week out. And getting whupped.

He’s been part of a journey under Wilder and Hecky, that believe me, has been fantastic compared to those awful lean years we had before them.

Well, there was the post-lockdown slide and the PL2 season where ... um ... erm ... enough said ...

Didn’t hear much complaint about him when we were 5th, and ended up finishing 9th in the Prem.What a season!

Yeah - but post lockdown we lost more than we won. The writing was on the wall wasn't it?

He’s clearly one of the best midfielders in the Championship, and the envy of most managers in this league.

Jurys out on both statements. Most managers don't play 5-3-2, so it's hard to see where he'd fit in. He can't play in any other formation

We can debate whether he can cut it in the Prem,although he has, till the cows come home,but the point is we’re in the Championship, and need to get out of there first.To my mind there is no better player, in the club,or out there who we could realistically get, who could help us get there, other than him.End of.Get behind him and the lads, and you never know, we might just do it.

He'll never make it in the PL. Neither will we if we keep on playing Wilderball or its variants

pommpey
 
Agreed



But it gives us fuck all these days. It did do when we had JOC and Bash as overlapping CBs and Fleck/Lundstram as 'third men' with Billy and Leon in the box. But that's years ago now.



Hang on. 'The SkyBet Stats' sez it does



C'mon. There's been some matches, even recently, when he's been a bit anonymous. Usually when the opposition press him and deny him space to boot it to the wingbacks



Maybe they do. Wilder, maybe not. He couldn't energise anything when we were getting whupped each week, could he? Just kept doing the same thing, week in, week out. And getting whupped.



Well, there was the post-lockdown slide and the PL2 season where ... um ... erm ... enough said ...



Yeah - but post lockdown we lost more than we won. The writing was on the wall wasn't it?



Jurys out on both statements. Most managers don't play 5-3-2, so it's hard to see where he'd fit in. He can't play in any other formation



He'll never make it in the PL. Neither will we if we keep on playing Wilderball or its variants

pommpey
You have too much time on your hands my friend.
Maybe you could fill some of it, by enrolling on a positive thinking course.
 
Norwood is consistently the best midfielder in this division, objectively.
Yes, I agree he is one of the best in the Championship, which is a low quality league this season, but aren't we planning for the Premier League? He controls our style, we need something better if we are promoted. Great servant, lots of respect, but time has passed for his style of play.
 
Yes, I agree he is one of the best in the Championship, which is a low quality league this season, but aren't we planning for the Premier League? He controls our style, we need something better if we are promoted. Great servant, lots of respect, but time has passed for his style of play.
We can keep calling the Champ a low quality league, but it's the one we're in this season. If Norwood is a baller in this league, we don't have to constantly say, "but in the best league in the world he's actually rubbish."

If he's not good enough for the prem, we'll have to replace the rest of the squad n'all. No team gets promoted to the prem and has more than a few players good enough for that level.

We went up and finished 9th with Norwood sat in our midfield previously. It can be done.
 
Norwood discussion is fucking laughable. Love how "sky bet stats" is being used as a slur now. Basically anything that backs up what anyone who understands anything about football can see, that Norwood is one of the best players in the league, can be dismissed. I'd like to know what evidence would be acceptable if stats are not allowed?

I think Wolves are better than Man City. Anyone who doesn't agree where is your evidence? And don't give me Sky Bet Premier league tables or "amount of games won". Where is your actual evidence wolves aren't better than Man City? I'll wait.
 
Nice response. Enough about me. Let's discuss Norwood, eh?

pommpey
Enough about you?

Oh yes please, I wish. You were the one saying you could ping balls out wide and get 100% pass completion in this team you tool. You’re like a pissed up tramp on west street swinging wildly and muttering obscenities at anyone unfortunate enough to make eye contact.
Fair play to you though, you’ve got more energy to continue an argument than anyone else. Enjoy yourself
 
Played sunday league, and 5 a side, never seen him play live but knows better than people who see him week in week out, better than managers and players better than official stats, better than league tables. Just after a row, and cant admit hes so wrong, wait for the abuse I will get back now. 'Treacle.' 🥱
 
And you're wrong regarding my opinion of Norwood and would thank you to stop second guessing what I see and understand about Oliver Norwood and his footballing game. It may have escaped your vision that the season before last he was dismal throughout the whole campaign. A clear indication of 'when he has a bad game, so do we'. He was totally found out and exposed for the Championship player he always was and coughed up possession and became redundant in defending and going forward. When Slav came in and tried to shift the emphasis off long punts to the wings hey presto, we lose Oliver Norwood entirely and he becomes a two man midfield bollard with Fleck. It was only when Hecky came in and restored some of the component parts of Wilderball he started to gain value ... not every game but some he was more effective ... but only when the opposition allowed him time on the ball to start spraying balls out wide. We were however hamstruck with the fact that the other components of Wilderball, namely a decent-crossing centreback and a supporting wingback, were nominally absent much of the time. We did make it to the playoffs but it was hit and miss, wasn't it? And lets be honest, many of our goals came not from Wilderball but from the almost psychic connectivity between MGW and IND. They are effectively Rand LAM in nature and picked the ball up and ran at oppositions. They hardly benefitted from Norwood's trademark 'ping' to the wings which was closed down anyway.

I don't rate Norwood up to avoid looking stupid. I'd look stupid marking him low in a game like Burnley where he had a pretty flawless outing. Mind you, Burnley's midfield were all over the shop. Compare if you will Rotherhams which had the measure of him and stopped him playing. Yesterday he was hot and cold. I still have to see him carry the ball up the pitch and still have to see him hit the 192 square feet of goal from outside the box with a meaningful shot which suggests he is as gifted as commentators on telly and on here say he is. It's his effectiveness I have an issue with. What do these millions of passes actually do? Tackling, yep, hes more measured these days and there is an improvement but banging it out to a marked wingback so it can only come backwards holds nothing for us scoring goals. It might get you out of your seat whoopon' and a hollerin' but for me it's when we hit the back of the net with one more goal than the opposition.

And if that's 'talking crap' then I can't help you any further. I spend a lot of time taking the trouble to explain my opinion to my detractors on here for the very same people to provide no evidence I am wrong save for SkyBet screenshots telling us nothing about us as a progressive, attacking footballing team. And our position - be honest - is as much to do with other teams fucking up as much as it does for us pulling a result out of the bag, like yesterday.

pommpey
I think one extra angle to consider when on the second season was that in the PL, we were the ones with the least possession in games. In the Championship we are the ones who have it most.

Clearly having lots of it plays to Norwood's strengths. He's a good passer, long and short. But you're also playing against teams with lesser players so if a pass goes astray, it isn't long until you get it back and go again.

In the PL, if a pass goes astray, especially against the better sides, it can be a minute or two of running around until you see it again or even worse, the next time you see it, you're kicking off.

Also, Norwood tops most midfield stats and defensive stats. His positioning is pretty decent and because the opposition are not always so careful he can be in the right place at the right time. But this is a small percentage of his game. In the top flight, you flip it on its head and he's doing more defending than playmaking. What's more the players running at him are better athletes and for all his disciplined positioning, he'll be strolled passed and outpaced and either take a booking or be out of the game.

I don't recall United having a midfielder with such a good range. But to get more out of him and to get games out of him at the next level if we managed to go up, he needs a minder. If he was next to a Yaya Toure for instance, it might extend his longevity. A current example of his ideal partner in my view would be Billing at Bournemouth. 6'5", gets up and down, scores goals and is left footed. He'd compliment him very well in my view. Having a short player on the decline isn't going to do it. I mentioned Amir Richardson of Reims also. Bentalab who used to be at Spurs and now plays at Angers in Ligue 1 could be another.

Keeping calling it as you see it, but just adding my two cents.
 
Played sunday league, and 5 a side, never seen him play live but knows better than people who see him week in week out, better than managers and players better than official stats, better than league tables. Just after a row, and cant admit hes so wrong, wait for the abuse I will get back now. 'Treacle.' 🥱

I see him every week. Of course, your experience in row ZZ trumps mine every time. Seeing him 'live' allus makes his punts end up in a goal and every shot hit the top corner, dunnit? And 'official stats'? Sky Bet is now 'official' is it? What qualifies 'stats' to be 'official' anyway? Do they have 'official' stats on how many of his shots end up in the stands?

So what do you know anyway, Treacle? Over and above snide comments? I don't hear you talk much about football at all. Why the fuck are you here? Why the fuck do you go to matches? Or is it just for Billy Big Blade kudos?

Pathetic.

pommpey
 

Enough about you?

Oh yes please, I wish. You were the one saying you could ping balls out wide and get 100% pass completion in this team you tool. You’re like a pissed up tramp on west street swinging wildly and muttering obscenities at anyone unfortunate enough to make eye contact.
Fair play to you though, you’ve got more energy to continue an argument than anyone else. Enjoy yourself

Silent agrees with you.

* snigger *

pommpey
 
We can keep calling the Champ a low quality league, but it's the one we're in this season. If Norwood is a baller in this league, we don't have to constantly say, "but in the best league in the world he's actually rubbish."

If he's not good enough for the prem, we'll have to replace the rest of the squad n'all. No team gets promoted to the prem and has more than a few players good enough for that level.

We went up and finished 9th with Norwood sat in our midfield previously. It can be done.
🥱 I live in the present, and think of the future, not dwelling in the past. I do not question his ability, but he controls our style of play. It is based on the past, Wilderball was found out 2nd season EPL. Our default style today is not as good as 3 seasons ago. Stop quoting it as if it will work again. We should be looking forwards, not backwards. We have the best squad in the championship, they can adapt, even Norwood, maybe. Read my previous posts, maybe you will understand the point I am making. I am not a Norwood hater, neither is Pommps from my understanding. We can play the best most exciting fast forward play at times, but it is infrequent. In full flow, it is a joy to behold. But we only see glimpses of this style. I just want to see more. How often do you see Wes throw out the ball quickly after a breakdown of an opposition attack? This is just one example.
 
🥱 I live in the present, and think of the future, not dwelling in the past. I do not question his ability, but he controls our style of play. It is based on the past, Wilderball was found out 2nd season EPL. Our default style today is not as good as 3 seasons ago. Stop quoting it as if it will work again. We should be looking forwards, not backwards. We have the best squad in the championship, they can adapt, even Norwood, maybe. Read my previous posts, maybe you will understand the point I am making. I am not a Norwood hater, neither is Pommps from my understanding. We can play the best most exciting fast forward play at times, but it is infrequent. In full flow, it is a joy to behold. But we only see glimpses of this style. I just want to see more. How often do you see Wes throw out the ball quickly after a breakdown of an opposition attack? This is just one example.
Not a fan of saying systems have been "found out", as though once decent analysis has been done on Wilderball it's doomed to fail. The 4-4-2 got found out yonks ago, then Leicester went and won the league with it.

We could bin Wilderball and play a back 4, maybe a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3. Have they not been found out? Or is Wilderball inherently flawed compared to more common systems?

You've not been a "hater" with any of your comments, all fair game for me.
 
🥱 I live in the present, and think of the future, not dwelling in the past. I do not question his ability, but he controls our style of play. It is based on the past, Wilderball was found out 2nd season EPL. Our default style today is not as good as 3 seasons ago. Stop quoting it as if it will work again. We should be looking forwards, not backwards. We have the best squad in the championship, they can adapt, even Norwood, maybe. Read my previous posts, maybe you will understand the point I am making. I am not a Norwood hater, neither is Pommps from my understanding. We can play the best most exciting fast forward play at times, but it is infrequent. In full flow, it is a joy to behold. But we only see glimpses of this style. I just want to see more. How often do you see Wes throw out the ball quickly after a breakdown of an opposition attack? This is just one example.
To be fair, two recent examples of Wes throwing it out quickly are Robinson getting dispossessed for Burnley's second and Basham almost giving a goal away against Cardiff! 🤣
 
I see him every week. Of course, your experience in row ZZ trumps mine every time. Seeing him 'live' allus makes his punts end up in a goal and every shot hit the top corner, dunnit? And 'official stats'? Sky Bet is now 'official' is it? What qualifies 'stats' to be 'official' anyway? Do they have 'official' stats on how many of his shots end up in the stands?

So what do you know anyway, Treacle? Over and above snide comments? I don't hear you talk much about football at all. Why the fuck are you here? Why the fuck do you go to matches? Or is it just for Billy Big Blade kudos?

Pathetic.

pommpey

Come on pommpey , you get a better view of the game in the stands and statistics are useful.
What about 100+ appearances in 3 promotion winning sides at this level?
Norwood gets in every other side in this league.
 
Norwood discussion is fucking laughable. Love how "sky bet stats" is being used as a slur now. Basically anything that backs up what anyone who understands anything about football can see, that Norwood is one of the best players in the league, can be dismissed. I'd like to know what evidence would be acceptable if stats are not allowed?

I think Wolves are better than Man City. Anyone who doesn't agree where is your evidence? And don't give me Sky Bet Premier league tables or "amount of games won". Where is your actual evidence wolves aren't better than Man City? I'll wait.

Nice of you to chip in.

'Sky Bet Stats' tell one side of any story. If I ignored every ball Norwood played into empty space or out of touch in the Rotherham game or any time his free kicks or shots have ended up being fielded by supporters high in the stands, or when he dawdles and is robbed then he is Man of the Match, every game. Unfortunately the 'Sky Bet Stats' don't have a measure for that, disappointing as it is when we get a free kick within striking distance and he elbows every fucker out of the way to boot it into the kop. 'Passing' ... yeah baby. Loads of it ... but much of it one-twos between him and five players around him, usually in our own half and hardly ever ending in a goal. Even the 'chances' metric ... how is that measured, exactly? I don't see McBurnie, Brewster, NDaiye or SHarp on the end of everything he optimistically punts forward. Its usually George or Enda and usually they have to come backwards. So how do Sky Bet Stats work, exactly? And who is doing the critical analysis? We assume it's some ex-player, ex-official or ex-someone who at least has played but as far as you know, it could be Brenda Jizzmopper, professional tealady or Freddie Shitlobber, 17 year old traineer researcher. But all you know is there's the 'stats', and the confirmation bias loop is complete.

Let's compare however the Burnley game where the evidence was out there on the pitch. Norwood was integral with everything we did, even in the disappointing first half where we were 1-2 down at HT. His output was pretty fucking flawless, hardly any Hollywood, didn't cough it up, challenged and won, was instrumental in the second half resurgence. I gave him high marks for that game and it was deserved. Never bothered with the stats - they possibly disagreed with what I had to say anyway. But for me he was man of the match amongst high marks for everyone. I don't need any confirmation bias by some anonymous button clicker backstage in Isleworth. He played well.

And position in the league is somewhat different from objectively lauding a player acknowledged as inconsistent by a lot of people on here and using subjective 'stats' as proof.

pommpey
 
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Come on pommpey , you get a better view of the game in the stands and statistics are useful.
What about 100+ appearances in 3 promotion winning sides at this level?
Norwood gets in every other side in this league.

When have I ever said he wouldn't?

I'd range that Brighton and Fulham ditched him on promotion. We didn't and yes, up to lockdown he was a very good part of a very good midfield. Only because we had every component of WIlderball in place and no one seemed to have an answer for it. Post lockdown in that Villa game we couldn't get anything going, this against a side as good as down at that time. We then went on to lose five, draw two and win three in the run in and start and finish disastrously the following season. Norwood? Nowhere to be seen. Isolated, outplayed, bullied, robbed and stymied.

Even last season under Slav with a different approach he was completely at sea. I won't deny he has improved under Hecky but and this is key ... only when conditions suit him. That leans heavily on the opposition midfield not leaning on him and allowing him time to do what he seems best at (and what puts blood in his fans dicks) lofting it out wide. Closed down, harried or even marked by one player and he's as good as fuck all.

He's capable, has some attributes and as it stands, is a significant player in a rather inconsistent, embattled side suffering from lack of option or imagination. Go a goal behind against a pretty mediocre side like Rotherham at home and watch us struggle like fuck as they basically play to our weaknesses, and fuck me do we do well in broadcasting them? We don't have a plan B. And it shows.

pommpey
 

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