JOC and Egan.

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Are you aware of our away points record this season pre Madine ?

It’s rather impressive and somewhat flies in the face of what you suggest.

Also, I’m curious as to how you see the across the back stuff differently now to how you did under Weir. I assume you will concede that this Wilder side does this, and with just as much regularity (more in my opinion).

I think I know the answer, but just curious of your take on it.

An awful lot of fans fail to understand WHY the so called tippy tappy backwards and sideways stuff is done, what is achieves, and how it helps to open teams up.

So to clarify, EXACTLY what is different under Wilder vs Weir in this regard ?

Forgive me if I have mistakenly bundled you with the plethora of fans that inhabit the ground and this forum that imply that being a, for want of a better word, bully of a footballer is something to behold.

I don’t believe it is. Strength can be an asset, but in the modern game it comes after Stamina and Speed in order of importance of the 3 Ss !

And I must disagree that in terms of entertainment value, this season ranks as high as any in the last 30-40 years I would imagine (I only go back to the 80s so can only comment this far back but I’m aware many champion the Harris era of the 70s with much love !).

UTB

I believe our away form was around sixth with the majority of favourable away games already behind us. The tactical change came in the Norwich game. Our run off fixtures was Norwich, Villa, West Brom, Pigs and Leeds. Logic would dictate that it was likely to get worse rather than better if we continued to play the same way. I think that objectively speaking we were the better side in all those games with the possible exception of the Wednesday game; and definitely the Leeds game. We've got another tough game this weekend so we'll be able to test this theory out again. Pre Madine and Dowell we lost away to Derby, Bristol City, Forest and Boro. The highest placed team we beat away was Brentford. That's the empirical evidence.We currently have the best home form in the league and the fourth best away form.

Everything is different under Wilder compared to Weir. Wilder has accumulated a squad of players who are all comfortable on the ball. We don't pass the ball square across our backline for the sake of it. We carry the ball and pass it forwards relying on dynamic overlaps and overloads. Not ponderous horizontal passing that results in the opposition getting eleven players back in position, and winning the ball close to our goal. Keeping possession is a means to an end in a Wilder side; not the other way around. Our distribution from the back is a case in point: if we're pressed high, we often go diagnally into the wingbacks or toward the half way line as a means to take a host of players out of the game.Under Weir, they could have five players stood on the edge of our box and we'd still try to play out from the back with inept footballers. If an opponent doesn't press us high, or only risk a few players in our half we will keep the ball and work our way through a team The overloads come from the wide centre backs (in tandem with the deepest lying midfielder); from the attacking midfielder and this season with the deepest lying striker Mcgoldrick (both working in tandem with the wing backs). The squad is also incredibly fit and has physical demands placed on it both in and out of possession (see Wilder's comments re Sharp this season for evidence of his thinking). Sharp had to adapt to Wilder's strategy, not the other way round. If we play our pressing system - no passengers out of possession. Getting the personel that Weir had to play the style he wanted to incorporate was a suicide note.They simply couldn't do it. To compound this, his players had no game plan out of possession. No high press, no counter attack starting on the half way line; nothing.
The biggest change in modern football is not the emphasis on possession. That's always been there in various guises throughout the generations.It's the emphasis on how you win the ball back and, more specifically, where you win the ball back. The United team of the previous two years was especially compelling in this aspects because we had a playmaker, par excellence, who was absolutely brilliant at pressing from the front in Mark Duffy. There's nothing more exciting in the game to me than winning the ball in the opponents goal and then slicing through them with incisive passing football to score a goal. It relies on speed,vision, endurance, positional sense, technical ability and team structure. The best example of that this season was the Villa home game. Sadly Duffy's become an increasingly peripheral figure (probably due to age and the physical demands we require) and we don't have an alternative in order to make plan A better (if we exclude Mcgoldrick). On Saturday, I would have played Sharp and Hogan and one of Duffy and and Mcgoldrick as the attacking midfielder to exploit the high line of Bristol. That was the way to win that game imo. I would have looked to stop their football at source with our high press and then exploited their pretty poor backline with Hogan running in behind them all game.
A lot of teams have the two S's you earmark, but lack the third S. I would offer up Reading, Brentford, Wigan and Swansea as examples of that. They play a high defensive line, press you high, and have youthful players that are all technically proficient. They all play an expansive possession based game to boot. Put a ball in their box in the air or press them high and they crap themselves more often than not. We could include Bristol in that lot. They were pressed for 20 minutes on Saturday and proceeded to give us the ball back or launch it in John Street or the South Stand. We looked like scoring from every set piece.I think you need a balance between all three S's. If you have players like Egan, O'Connell, Duffy, Stevens, Fleck etc then you're onto something. Its not an either or situation then.
 



Bristol City were ok but nothing special. They were there for the taking had we played anything like we can.

I am still annoyed at how shocking we were. No passion, no tempo and no quality. Add to that poor tactics and substitutions.

It is scarcely believable that a team in 2nd could be so crap in such an important game.
 
May be an unpopular viewpoint but I thought Norwood had a good game on Saturday. He had lots of quality touches, switched play and was the only player who brought it down and passed it during the many times we were treating it like a hot potato.

Fleck was doing his best to drive forward as well and he did fine. It just didn’t come off for us and city had a good game plan for us. Even with all that, we still scored twice and had we simply defended better for the last 20, we’d have undeservedly won.
 
Anybody else think they got bullied for the first time in a United shirt yesterday? The Bristol number nine was tremendous: he held the ball up, ran the channels and got Bristol City up the pitch relieving the spells of pressure we had. I can't remember Egan ever getting dominated so comprehensively. It was absolutely pivotal to their win yesterday. On the other hand we played our away system (probably due to injuries) that relies on a similar player; but the ball kept coming back negating the counter attacking threat we've seen in other games.

It looks like I’m a fully paid up member of your ‘knows nowt’ club. ;) I thought their no. 9 had a very good game. He looked raw, which for a 25 yr old perhaps isn’t a good sign. He did have a knack of doing something well and then having the control of a pub player. He’s exactly the type of player that I believe that we needed this season; mobile, strong, willing runner & competes for everything. He showed more than I’ve seen offered from Hogan, Washington and Madine combined. He’s got a 2 in 7 ratio in the championship, so he’s certainly not shit. And £5m is great value.

If people don’t like the phrase ‘bullied’, perhaps ‘physically dominated’ is better. :) I suspect that I’ve totally over estimated his benefit to Bristol City, but I thought this domination, stifled some of our players and allowed space for some of his team mates players. Similar to Madine’s performance at BDTBL for Bolton last season. If one player had the effect of occupying two of the opposition players, that allows the opportunity for an overload elsewhere, and that’s a plus in my limited, Luddite footballing view.

I also thought their no. 3 was excellent and his name had been mentioned on here pre-season as a one to bring in on loan.
 
It looks like I’m a fully paid up member of your ‘knows nowt’ club. ;) I thought their no. 9 had a very good game. He looked raw, which for a 25 yr old perhaps isn’t a good sign. He did have a knack of doing something well and then having the control of a pub player. He’s exactly the type of player that I believe that we needed this season; mobile, strong, willing runner & competes for everything. He showed more than I’ve seen offered from Hogan, Washington and Madine combined. He’s got a 2 in 7 ratio in the championship, so he’s certainly not shit. And £5m is great value.

If people don’t like the phrase ‘bullied’, perhaps ‘physically dominated’ is better. :) I suspect that I’ve totally over estimated his benefit to Bristol City, but I thought this domination, stifled some of our players and allowed space for some of his team mates players. Similar to Madine’s performance at BDTBL for Bolton last season. If one player had the effect of occupying two of the opposition players, that allows the opportunity for an overload elsewhere, and that’s a plus in my limited, Luddite footballing view.

I also thought their no. 3 was excellent and his name had been mentioned on here pre-season as a one to bring in on loan.

Jay Dasilva is the number three - on loan from Chelsea. To be fair, I've seen Diedhiou a number of times on the box and that's the best I've seen him by a long chalk. His goal record is better than I expected - 24 goals in 64 appearances - with all but one of those coming in the Championship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famara_Diédhiou
For 5.3million, I'd have to watch him for longer to make an assessment.
 
Are you aware of our away points record this season pre Madine ?

It’s rather impressive and somewhat flies in the face of what you suggest.

Also, I’m curious as to how you see the across the back stuff differently now to how you did under Weir. I assume you will concede that this Wilder side does this, and with just as much regularity (more in my opinion).

I think I know the answer, but just curious of your take on it.

An awful lot of fans fail to understand WHY the so called tippy tappy backwards and sideways stuff is done, what is achieves, and how it helps to open teams up.

So to clarify, EXACTLY what is different under Wilder vs Weir in this regard ?

Forgive me if I have mistakenly bundled you with the plethora of fans that inhabit the ground and this forum that imply that being a, for want of a better word, bully of a footballer is something to behold.

I don’t believe it is. Strength can be an asset, but in the modern game it comes after Stamina and Speed in order of importance of the 3 Ss !

And I must disagree that in terms of entertainment value, this season ranks as high as any in the last 30-40 years I would imagine (I only go back to the 80s so can only comment this far back but I’m aware many champion the Harris era of the 70s with much love !).

UTB
The side from 70 - 74 played some beautiful much forgotten football with similar triangles + crossfield balls switching play. Thinking back Sir John Harris was an innovator as we had Billy Dearden as a lone striker with Salmons & Currie both playing a kind of number 10 role. Two wingers in Woody & Gil Reece that would on occasion push inside & score goals.

Hemsley & Badger (my favourite player) especially were comfortable on the ball.

It's worth googling some of these periods to watch games/seasons on you tube. Also what surprised me as I was probably too young at the time was how Badger /Salmons/Colquhoun/Hemsley & co were quick to get in the refs face when decisions were poor.

Back to the point, this side is the best I've seen since then.
 
That's not a counterpoint. A counterpoint would be to say why you thought it was nonsense. If you can't be respectful please avoid commenting on my posts or threads in future. Thank you.

Graham's Hierarchy, innit.

paul-graham-ladder.gif
 
I didn’t feel the need to start another thread as I see this as been adequate enough but has anyone heard any early update on what’s wrong with JOC and how long he’ll be out for?
 

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