Jean Leroy Belehouan

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Cheers Phil,

So to summarise, and I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, a realistic explanation for the Academy's existence is to find that rarest of players who might shine amongst our first team (that's team, not squad), either going on to becoming a star player or to display his skills to such good effect that eventually we'll realise a transfer valuation that contributes towards the continuation of the Academy plus bring in previously (post-Prem) much needed income for the running of the club and additional money for new signings? Any truth in this? Or is there another reason that escapes me?

Academies teach youngsters to play football. All our First Team have played Academy Football. Not every Academy player will play First Team football. But every First Team player willl have played Academy football. Academy football is incredibly important to all clubs.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Is he left sided/ left footed?

Often plays Centre. If not, right side.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Academies teach youngsters to play football. All our First Team have played Academy Football. Not every Academy player will play First Team football. But every First Team footballer will have played Academy football. Academy football is incredibly important to all clubs.

Completely agree with that summary mate, but your description suggests an inter-club community where there's (almost) a co-operative ethos at work. I have no answer to this other than to wonder if every Academy produces players that (a) become so valuable that their value eventually enables the selling club to benefit or (b) act as a platform through which players are able to step up to the first team? The Academy system presumably extends to a certain level of the game, after which the smaller clubs exist on levels of funding that cannot support an Academy, or is this an incorrect description amongst league clubs?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Completely agree with that summary mate, but your description suggests an inter-club community where there's (almost) a co-operative ethos at work. I have no answer to this other than to wonder if every Academy produces players that (a) become so valuable that their value eventually enables the selling club to benefit or (b) act as a platform through which players are able to step up to the first team? The Academy system presumably extends to a certain level of the game, after which the smaller clubs exist on levels of funding that cannot support an Academy, or is this an incorrect description amongst league clubs?

itsinyerblood I'm not sure I fully understand the question(s). But, I'm happy to engage. Take David Brooks as an example. He played Academy Football for Manchester City. But, was deemed not good enough. A lower league team gave him a chance. He played extensively for them/us at U18/U23. As part of his development, he went on loan to play first team "Man's" football at an even lower level. He developed at his own pace. In due course, he developed into a player who attracted interest from a Premier League club. He was transferred as Utd couldn't realistically hold on to him. He's playing PL & International football. Utd got some income. That's my understanding of "the co-operative". But, I can't tell if that's what you're driving at. Simplify your concern/question for me.

 

[Bladesman]

bonnet de douche!

 

[itsinyerblood]

itsinyerblood I'm not sure I fully understand the question(s). But, I'm happy to engage. Take David Brooks as an example. He played Academy Football for Manchester City. But, was deemed not good enough. A lower league team gave him a chance. He played extensively for them/us at U18/U23. As part of his development, he went on loan to play first team "Man's" football at an even lower level. He developed at his own pace. In due course, he developed into a player who attracted interest from a Premier League club. He was transferred as Utd couldn't realistically hold on to him. He's playing PL & International football. Utd got some income. That's my understanding of "the co-operative". But, I can't tell if that's what you're driving at. Simplify your concern/question for me.

Sorry for any confusion, not my intention...let's see if this is more helpful.

Putting aside Brooks career so far, clubs like United exist on it's benefactor or whatever other income streams support the club. Not every club is this fortunate, therefore Academies exist if a club has the resources to support them.

I was wondering about the broader picture and how the 'haves' (those who manage to support an Academy) and 'not haves' co-exist? If a club doesn't have an Academy, does it exist on the most meagre of income and learn to do without, or do the 'haves' in some way help via loans? It's not quite the 'co-operative' ethos I referred to, but there's clearly an ingrained system at work that has the potential to benefit all levels of the game. Hope that's a bit more concise.

 

[BushBlade]

Completely agree with that summary mate, but your description suggests an inter-club community where there's (almost) a co-operative ethos at work. I have no answer to this other than to wonder if every Academy produces players that (a) become so valuable that their value eventually enables the selling club to benefit or (b) act as a platform through which players are able to step up to the first team? The Academy system presumably extends to a certain level of the game, after which the smaller clubs exist on levels of funding that cannot support an Academy, or is this an incorrect description amongst league clubs?

It’s a contentious issue. The league clubs had become dependent on the ‘solidarity payments’ made by the PL. The PL then decided that they would reduce the amount of statutory compensation payable to clubs when a Cat 1 academy poaches one of their youth players. In return they increased the solidarity payments. They also said they’d cut the solidarity payments if the league clubs didn’t agree.
This has caused a number of clubs to say ‘it’s a waste of time and money’. Others disagree and still have academies of some sort, particularly in places where there are fewer local big teams, for example, Exeter.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Sorry for any confusion, not my intention...let's see if this is more helpful.

Putting aside Brooks career so far, clubs like United exist on it's benefactor or whatever other income streams support the club. Not every club is this fortunate, therefore Academies exist if a club has the resources to support them.

I was wondering about the broader picture and how the 'haves' (those who manage to support an Academy) and 'not haves' co-exist? If a club doesn't have an Academy, does it exist on the most meagre of income and learn to do without, or do the 'haves' in some way help via loans? It's not quite the 'co-operative' ethos I referred to, but there's clearly an ingrained system at work that has the potential to benefit all levels of the game. Hope that's a bit more concise.

Partly, it depends what you're calling an Academy. Let's take that wording out of the equation. Most teams at all levels will run some sort of Youth Team. Sheffield, Hallam & Dronfield Town all run U19 sides. And those teams have played in the same league as a Sheffield United U19 team. Obviously, each team has to devote what resources they think fit to their Youth System. But, in that sense, surely "every club" has some sort of appropriate Youth System.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Partly, it depends what you're calling an Academy. Let's take that wording out of the equation. Most teams at all levels will run some sort of Youth Team. Sheffield, Hallam & Dronfield Town all run U19 sides. And those teams have played in the same league as a Sheffield United U19 team. Obviously, each team has to devote what resources they think fit to their Youth System. But, in that sense, surely "every club" has some sort of appropriate Youth System.

Ah, that helps a great deal Phil.....even though it may seem 'obvious' to some, your description lays out a step by step explanation for which I'm grateful.
My interest in the Blades, although going back approximately 50 years, doesn't extend to the going-ons at youth team level. Reason being that there are far more informed members on here (you being one) who can provide an informed answer. As you suggest in your reply, an Academy by any other name.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Ah, that helps a great deal Phil.....even though it may seem 'obvious' to some, your description lays out a step by step explanation for which I'm grateful.
My interest in the Blades, although going back approximately 50 years, doesn't extend to the going-ons at youth team level. Reason being that there are far more informed members on here (you being one) who can provide an informed answer. As you suggest in your reply, an Academy by any other name.

I do think you have to confront some uncomfortable truths when you debate Academy Football. As others have pointed out, at the Elite Level, the finances & recruitment seem weighted towards Cat 1 Academies. (We're Cat 2). Cat 1 can sort of nick younger lads from Cat 2 on the cheap. Irrespective of Academy Cat, L2/L1/Championship clubs will find it impossible to hang on to their top older prospects if PL teams come knocking. Your Brooks, Ramsdale, DCL. Simply because of the PL Profile & Money.

SUFC are in an odd position on the grid - Cat 2 but PL. The sheer weight of numbers make it very very difficult for any PL (& top Champo) club to get one of their own youngsters through to the first team.

So, it is an "easy" argument to say - if none of our youngsters get to the first team, why bother? Why spend the money?

My mantra of - we're a football club, all first teamers have played Academy Football somewhere, we need an Academy, has some unconvincing elements. It's like a mad system that somehow works. Jack O'Connell would not be the player he is today without Academy Football, but he didn't learn at OUR Academy.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Salute. First goal. Last Saturday night. My fault missed that. I was drinking in Leyton with some unreconstructed West Ham fans. Sorry for adding to the confusion

Everyone else is asking you questions, so here's one from me. What do reconstructed West Ham fans look like?

 

[BushBlade]

Everyone else is asking you questions, so here's one from me. What do reconstructed West Ham fans look like?

Vegan hipster cabbies.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Everyone else is asking you questions, so here's one from me. What do reconstructed West Ham fans look like?

Helpfully, my drinking partners were reconstructed in one key sense - they had no desire to fill me in for being a Northern Monkey. I will say, across most clubs, if you have an in, an introduction, you will generally be welcomed quietly in even the most partisan home pubs. These were not ICF, but they were clearly rascals. Couldn't have been more welcoming to me, my wife & the other CBF joining us.

 

[sportinguista in Warsaw]

Salute. First goal. Last Saturday night. My fault missed that. I was drinking in Leyton with some unreconstructed West Ham fans. Sorry for adding to the confusion

I can deffo recommend post match pints in Leyton...

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I can deffo recommend post match pints in Leyton...

Where did you go mate? Can you recall?

 

[super_pig]

Maybe he's a French Black version of Matt Elliott?

matbe he’s a French version of Jean Leroy Bele whatshisface

 

[Grappler]

Helpfully, my drinking partners were reconstructed in one key sense - they had no desire to fill me in for being a Northern Monkey. I will say, across most clubs, if you have an in, an introduction, you will generally be welcomed quietly in even the most partisan home pubs. These were not ICF, but they were clearly rascals. Couldn't have been more welcoming to me, my wife & the other CBF joining us.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread lads, just wanted to ask Phil what the meaning of Carrier Bag Firm was?, I know you have explained this before, but I have genuinely forgotten.

Was it something to do with you working for a carrier bag firm and taking customers out (entertaining them, as it were) for football and beers, or is it more like you are all of a certain age, and bring your flask and sandwiches to the game in carrier bags?

 

[sportinguista in Warsaw]

Where did you go mate? Can you recall?

Pretty much everywhere in Leyton, I used to live in Walthamstow just up the road...

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Pretty much everywhere in Leyton, I used to live in Walthamstow just up the road...

.... loving your work ....

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Sorry to hi-jack this thread lads, just wanted to ask Phil what the meaning of Carrier Bag Firm was?, I know you have explained this before, but I have genuinely forgotten.

Was it something to do with you working for a carrier bag firm and taking customers out (entertaining them, as it were) for football and beers, or is it more like you are all of a certain age, and bring your flask and sandwiches to the game in carrier bags?

Grappler
The Carrier Bag Firm is/was just a self piss taking name for football nerds, anoraks, trainspotters, geeks. In my experience, the "bag" itself is more often used for paperwork. Programmes, Teamsheets, Tickets, and the like. For my part, I became fascinated with the lengths some fans will go to a) get to obscure games, U18, U23, friendlies, etc and b) try to find, source, snaffle Teamsheets at those games. I started writing my Blog
www.ball-sup.blogspot.com
in 2014. Originally, I pictured it as a sort of "travelogue" of football, cricket & beer. But, from about a year in, I became more & more obsessed with my fellow travellers. And, started chronicling CBF Shenanigans more regularly. (Steve Mackan was kind enough to ask me to contribute to the Dem Blades Fanzine & I have developed more of a parody style of writing). But, I swear two things. One - everything I write about the CBF has a firm element of truth, I just sometimes take the idea to the very extremes. Two - every U18/U23 game, every single game, one of the CBF will do or say something that takes my breath away. They get inside your head man......

 

[Grappler]

Grappler
The Carrier Bag Firm is/was just a self piss taking name for football nerds, anoraks, trainspotters, geeks. In my experience, the "bag" itself is more often used for paperwork. Programmes, Teamsheets, Tickets, and the like. For my part, I became fascinated with the lengths some fans will go to a) get to obscure games, U18, U23, friendlies, etc and b) try to find, source, snaffle Teamsheets at those games. I started writing my Blog
www.ball-sup.blogspot.com
in 2014. Originally, I pictured it as a sort of "travelogue" of football, cricket & beer. But, from about a year in, I became more & more obsessed with my fellow travellers. And, started chronicling CBF Shenanigans more regularly. (Steve Mackan was kind enough to ask me to contribute to the Dem Blades Fanzine & I have developed more of a parody style of writing). But, I swear two things. One - everything I write about the CBF has a firm element of truth, I just sometimes take the idea to the very extremes. Two - every U18/U23 game, every single game, one of the CBF will do or say something that takes my breath away. They get inside your head man......

Cheers Phil

I guess that means that we could all be "Carrier Bag Firm" without even knowing it!!!

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Cheers Phil

I guess that means that we could all be "Carrier Bag Firm" without even knowing it!!!

Very insightful Grappler Most football fans have some sort of obsessive thing underpinning them. They/you/me are indeed Carrier Bag Firm. That's why it's very much a term of endearment. The truly, truly bonkers CBF I know always think it's someone else I'm writing about. They think what they do "is normal" & that I must be writing about some other freak. No mate. It's you. I'm turning a mirror.

 

[Steve Mackan]

Grappler
The Carrier Bag Firm is/was just a self piss taking name for football nerds, anoraks, trainspotters, geeks. In my experience, the "bag" itself is more often used for paperwork. Programmes, Teamsheets, Tickets, and the like. For my part, I became fascinated with the lengths some fans will go to a) get to obscure games, U18, U23, friendlies, etc and b) try to find, source, snaffle Teamsheets at those games. I started writing my Blog
www.ball-sup.blogspot.com
in 2014. Originally, I pictured it as a sort of "travelogue" of football, cricket & beer. But, from about a year in, I became more & more obsessed with my fellow travellers. And, started chronicling CBF Shenanigans more regularly. (Steve Mackan was kind enough to ask me to contribute to the Dem Blades Fanzine & I have developed more of a parody style of writing). But, I swear two things. One - everything I write about the CBF has a firm element of truth, I just sometimes take the idea to the very extremes. Two - every U18/U23 game, every single game, one of the CBF will do or say something that takes my breath away. They get inside your head man......

The next fanzine is going to be very CBF-friendly

 

[Tom Bott]

Jeune, pacy, noir, français