It's Just Like Watching Brazil

[Grecian2000]

I'd add Keegan late 70s, Shearer mid 90s, possibly Robson early 80s. Agree with your overall point though.

For what it's worth, rather than adding, I would have taken it back to three.

Banks, Moore and Charlton (R) are, for me, the only truly world class players we have had in my lifetime (my dad likes to add Tom Finney and Duncan Edwards from an era before). We were astonishingly lucky they all came along at the same time and had a decent enough supporting cast (and manager) to make us contenders for a few years.

I agree with Bladesway though, having a team worth more than the sum of its parts is something we could do with getting at the moment rather than a team of, not very inspiring, individuals who, somehow, end up worse than you'd expect.

I hope yesterday was the kick in the teeth Brazil needed to get back to the sort of style those of us of a certain age long for.

 

[pommpey]

sadly no Premier League club will think like this, escpecially now it is just a playground for foreign owners who really couldn't give a flying toss about the England national team.

and ...

That problem is the Premier League.

Precisely. I'll admit, we do have one of the best leagues in the world in the PL. The football on display is wonderful to watch (at times) and - as United have found out - unless you have the investment behind you to sustain that level, you are fucked. But all of this is a self-fucking arsehole, isn't it? Big investor comes into a club with cash, wanting big returns, because ticket sales, merchandise revenue and best of all, hundreds of thousands of punters in pubs across the UK and the world watching Man City vs Chelsea at 17:15 on a rainy Saturday in November is a massive cash cow because you get a cut of the joint advertising revenue, branding exposure, Sky+ HD, player sponsorship deals, image rights, betting input and output ...

... somewhere in the middle of this, 22 players kick a ball about for forty-five minutes ...

... half time analysis ... complete with three, 150-second advert breaks, mainly with PL/club-co-marketing strategem ...

... another forty-five minues of, erm ... football ...

... post match debriefs in front of multi-sponsor board, four ad breaks in the analysis ...

You can see what this has become, can't you? It is marginally less-profound for the Champoinship (only just, mind) but FIFA, UEFA, the FA, the Premier League, individual football clubs (as plcs), football clubs (as discrete sub-companies), players, agents and their marketing and sponsors men have us poor, daft bastards over a barrel. On a grander scheme, but in the same game, it matters not a fucking jot that van Persie latches onto a great, 45-yard lofted pass and pings it off his swede for maybe the goal of the tournament so-far, moreso it matters that he wears Nike Air Vapor Ultimate Limited Edition Lightwieght 2014 Beckenbaur boots (which give you the competitive edge over your performance - see the three adverts to prove that in the break) his kit has the Swoosh branding clearly visible from six of the fourteen cameras that capture him nodding it into the oinion bag, he has a Dutch advert also in the break for Nike hair gel which obviously assisted him to score that goal, somewhere in the background (and hopefully in focus as agreed with the TV company) your company's LED-ad-array is flashing the brand just as he flops to the deck as the ball loops over the keeper in super-slo-mo.

And the cash rolls in, be it in direct revenue from the turnstiles, or indirect via selling the brand. And the only way it rolls in is to neglect the nursery and buy in fast-buck players from abroad and let the fans shoulder the cost of these imports. Of course, its not just the grass roots football ethic that suffers from this, its also the national side.

Football is still a beautiful game ... I know this. I still play it at 52 and have done so since 5. But I doubt much those who make the most money from this game take the time to kick a ball about and enjoy it for what it really is and understand why we love it so much, playing, watching or experiencing.

With regard last night's game, Brazil have had that coming for some time. From the opening game I thought they were setting themselves up for a pasting somewhere along the way. The first game, their back four where particularly shambolic with Marcelo no better than McMahon in my opinion and Luis playing a very thin-ice game. They were lucky to get past Columbia. I despise all the rolling about on the deck shit now - it's beyond contempt - and the immature propensity for South American fans to boo and whistle when the opposition has possession was shut-the-fuck-up last night. Why do they do this? The reason te opposition has possession is because your team isn't good enough to take the fucking ball off them. Or stop them scoring, as it were.

The news today - full of distraught Brazillians looking like their world has caved in on them and it is the end of days. Welcome to our world, you lot. Think Simonsen, Givens, Wigan and the post, Mark Bright, Milennium Stadium, Tevez and all the other footballing disasters we have faced.

No sympathy. At all.

pommpey

 

[Revolution]

I thought against Italy the fact that Sterling and Sturridge knew each others games worked wonderfully. If it is just down to talent then why do we reach finals and win competitions at younger age catergories?

The point with Germany is these players grew up together and have had between four and six seasons playing together at the highest level. The Liverpool model is the one positive for England and the development of the team going forwards.

We had years of the same thing with Man Utd and it did no good.

And we had one World class player at the same time as Lineker and Keegan that no one has mentioned - Peter Shilton.

 

[shorehamview]

The news today - full of distraught Brazillians looking like their world has caved in on them and it is the end of days. Welcome to our world, you lot. Think Simonsen, Givens, Wigan and the post, Mark Bright, Milennium Stadium, Tevez and all the other footballing disasters we have faced.

No sympathy. At all.

pommpey

This. All those pundits saying that they are "distraught". Well, I'm not, I think it's hilarious, especially as I had a small bet on Germany before the tournament started. Brazil got a wake-up call. Germany's was when they lost 5-1 to England. England's wake-up call is forever ringing, and the rich keep getting richer, and fuck the rest.

 

[super_pig]

David Luiz never has been,and never will be a Centre Half,He's a very good midfielder.
Surely Brazil should have a capable regular central defender in reserve ?
Anyway a team with players called 'Fred','Hulk','Oscar','Jo' and 'Bernard',should be treated with some sceptercism ?

and you forgot their best player.. referinho

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

For what it's worth, rather than adding, I would have taken it back to three.

Banks, Moore and Charlton (R) are, for me, the only truly world class players we have had in my lifetime (my dad likes to add Tom Finney and Duncan Edwards from an era before). We were astonishingly lucky they all came along at the same time and had a decent enough supporting cast (and manager) to make us contenders for a few years.

I agree with Bladesway though, having a team worth more than the sum of its parts is something we could do with getting at the moment rather than a team of, not very inspiring, individuals who, somehow, end up worse than you'd expect.

I hope yesterday was the kick in the teeth Brazil needed to get back to the sort of style those of us of a certain age long for.

This! We think we're better than we actually are. The PL hype and publicity is believed, I think even by the individuals themselves. Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard et al actually think that they are world class players. Time for a reality check, recognise that we have no world class talent, so stop trying to set up the team to play as if we have. Tactically we try and match what the Germans, Dutch, Argentinians, Belgians do when we don't have the players to make it work. Better to focus on how other teams at our level do it and replicate Colombia, Costa Rica, USA, Greece, Mexico, Chile, Switzerland and even Algeria.

Give me that USA team in England shirts every time. Effort, endeavour, effectiveness and something to be proud of.

 

[MBoreman]

Trying to say Germany are one of these 'sum of the individual' teams is nonsense. At the beginning of the tournament they were regarded by many, myself included, to have the best side. They have the world's best keeper and full back, one of the best central defenders in Hummels (Boateng and Mertesacker would get in most sides as well), a player in Schweinsteiger who has been one of the best central midfielders for years, while also having some of the best attacking midfield talent in the world (Kroos, Ozil, Muller, Schurrle, Gotze couldn't even make the side). Not to mention Khedira who like the rest plays for one of the worlds biggest clubs.

Germany, unlike England, should do well. Looking at population, wealth and experience they should be consistently one of the world's best sides while England should be around where they are, if not worse. People feel England should do well because we founded the game but being on the periphery of the main footballing network of knowledge that is central Europe has disadvantaged us. Hence why we need a coach from within that network to supply us with it's knowledge like Hiddink has done for many smaller nations (Russia, Australia, Turkey). Supposedly England would have been his perfect project but he was put off by the media. The FA had the right idea with Capello who has the best win percentage of any England manager but then gave up on that theory too soon.

One of the more basic reasons I feel England do badly is the fact that of all the nations at the tournament only England's players all come from the same league. This will clearly limit knowledge and ideas of how to play and should be addressed in my opinion. Also with the Premier League being played at the highest tempo of any the players are at a disadvantage as this tempo can't be sustained in the heat of most World Cups so they must either play an unfamiliar style or be dead on their feet after 60 minutes. This tempo and high quality of the league also means the players are too tired by the time tournaments come around. For English players to get into Premier League sides they must give their all every game whereas players in lower quality leagues can hold some effort back for the big stage. So when people say the lack of English players in the Premier league due to foreigners is the problem it's really not the case. One, the players must improve to survive and two, they would probably benefit from playing less.

 

[wizadry]

I'd love to know what people rate as world class and how you get to that definition.

And SEB,you give me that england team in USA shirts with effort,endeavour,effectiveness and something to be proud of i will assure you,that team would be alot better in every aspect of the game than the yanks,they played to the very top of their ability,we didn't.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I'd love to know what people rate as world class and how you get to that definition.

And SEB,you give me that england team in USA shirts with effort,endeavour,effectiveness and something to be proud of i will assure you,that team would be alot better in every aspect of the game than the yanks,they played to the very top of their ability,we didn't.

That was my point. Now did our muppets not achieve because they are all PL prima donnas who didn't put the effort in or are they an overrated bunch being expected to do things beyond their capabilities? I'd say mainly the latter with a good bit of the former.

 

[grafikhaus]

This! We think we're better than we actually are. The PL hype and publicity is believed, I think even by the individuals themselves. Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard et al actually think that they are world class players. Time for a reality check, recognise that we have no world class talent.

Actually, I think most true football fans know we're crap. It's only the 'plastics' - the stupid fuckers who crowd pubs out, yelling at a TV screen and painting their faces who will move on to the next fad. (Remember 20-odd years ago when American 'Football' was in and middle aged cunts were wearing baseball caps on back to front and yelling 'Way to go!' at the pub screen?)

Brazil had more than their share of plastics. Birds done up like Trippet Lane hookers, more content with waving when they were on the big screen and crying crocodile tears when 'the dream' was over.

Anyway, back OT. It's a myth that England were ever any good. The names older fans trot out - Matthews, Finney, Mortensen etc. never won fuck all. In fact they got humiliated on more than one occasion. We 'won' the World Cup a mere 48 years ago because then, as now, everythng was loaded in the host nations' favour.

If we produce decent home-grown players, by the time the 'coaches' have ruined them, very few actually make it. The hype will all start again soon for the Euros. Want a hot tip? We've no fucking chance. Woy is from the 'blazer and tie network' and his only go at top-flight football (Liverpool) was a fucking disaster. As soon as England were knocked out, he was on the first plane back whereas other bright, young managers such as Martinez stayed around to watch and learn.

We're dooomed!!!

Not really. The real stuff starts on August 9th.

 

[Grecian2000]

For English players to get into Premier League sides they must give their all every game whereas players in lower quality leagues can hold some effort back for the big stage. So when people say the lack of English players in the Premier league due to foreigners is the problem it's really not the case.

Whilst I might (indeed DO) agree with several points in the post, the above quote is just a contradiction that I don't understand.

If the English players have to play at 100% every week just to get a game then, surely, having less foreign players would mean they could get by without this effort every week. Therefore, less foreign players would mean a more "rested" England team.

For what it's worth I don't think the number of foreign players is the problem either, I just don't think your theory as to why makes sense.

I'd love to know what people rate as world class and how you get to that definition.

For me it's a player who would get a place in ANY current national team and make it better.
Currently only Messi fits my bill. Last one before him Zidane.

 

[wizadry]

That was my point. Now did our muppets not achieve because they are all PL prima donnas who didn't put the effort in or are they an overrated bunch being expected to do things beyond their capabilities? I'd say mainly the latter with a good bit of the former.

Lets be honest here,we had enough chances in all 3 group games to win every match and trust me we did,we just lacked that cutting edge,Godin gets sent off they don't win,penalty appeals turned down,sitters missed in all 3 matches.Now don't get me wrong,were not brilliant by any stretch of the imagination but were nowhere near as bad as what people are making out and with a few chances put away and a few decisions go our way for a change,apart from the Germans last night, there was nothing to fear in this tournament and we could have still been in it.

 

[MBoreman]

Whilst I might (indeed DO) agree with several points in the post, the above quote is just a contradiction that I don't understand.

If the English players have to play at 100% every week just to get a game then, surely, having less foreign players would mean they could get by without this effort every week. Therefore, less foreign players would mean a more "rested" England team.

For what it's worth I don't think the number of foreign players is the problem either, I just don't think your theory as to why makes sense.


Sorry I see what you mean. Well yes but less foreign players would also see a lower standard of league which fans wouldn't like, I did have a point that made sense in my head at some point but I've managed to confuse myself. I do find it astonishing though that more people don't point out the lack of English players abroad while instead looking at the foreign players here.

 

[Grecian2000]

Thanks MB. Glad it wasn't just me not reading it right!

 

[wizadry]

The main reason english players don't go abroad is because they don't have to.They get too much money here and its too cushy for them,i do tend to agree that it might help though if a few of our better players ventured off somewhere.

 

[Silent Blade]

Well Liverpool have half this England team, doesn't seem to make any difference. Fundamentally it's talent, those Liverpool players all play together, but when someone like Gerrard is the main man you can see the problem because he's not a world class player, and the same goes for the rest of them.

Ron Greenwood tried that with 6 Liverpool players in 1977. Didnt work

 

[metalblade]

At times I think you just have to accept other teams, nations in this case have much better players than we do. Sad but true at the moment we have a particularly poor pool of players to pick from. Start at number one we do not have a decent English keeper that could ever compare to the likes of Banks, Shilton, Clemence or Seaman. This goes right through the team we have good players but none that stand out on the big stage and worryingly not many young players that look like they will step up to the mark any time soon.
No point blaming Woy or his tactics at the end of the day we were not good enough in key areas. Maybe against Italy we were a little unlucky not to get something but V Uraguay we were awful at the back (Jags), carried a passenger in midfield (Gerrard) and were woeful up front (Sturridge) missing a host of good chances. Fine margins but a weak spine right through the team and I don't see it changing in time for the Euro Championship in two years time.

 

[MBoreman]

Thanks MB. Glad it wasn't just me not reading it right!

More foreign players would mean less can get in so are either rested or are forced to go abroad where they may play in lesser leagues in which they can hold back while also gaining new ideas for the side (two birds one stone). It may also help their confidence being the big star in a league for once. I think that makes a bit more sense haha

 

[BerksBlade]

World-class players: Agree with Banks, Moore & Charlton - luckily they all played in the same era. I'd rate Lineker as a world-class finisher even if the rest of his game wasn't up to that level. What about Ashley Cole? In his prime he would have got into virtually any top European club side. Paul Scholes maybe? We just didn't use him correctly.
But several teams progressed a lot further than England with no world-class players. Uruguay weren't much better than us - they just had a lethal finisher. USA, Costa Rica & Algeria all punched above their weight.
Setting up to play like Liverpool wasn't a bad idea, given the number of players they had in the team. But somewhere along the line, it didn't quite work. It will be interesting to see how Liverpool get on in the Champions League - will their system work against the top clubs?
I'd definitely like to see us adopt some parts of the German model (not the "B" teams though). But while the cash keeps rolling in the Premier League won't give a flying f***.
Ah well - only a month to go before proper football returns!

 

[Darren]

Ron Greenwood tried that with 6 Liverpool players in 1977. Didnt work

Yes, the bizzare decision was recalling Ian Callaghan for his first cap for 11 years. The others were Clemence, Neal, Hughes, McDermott and Kennedy I believe.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

More foreign players would mean less can get in so are either rested or are forced to go abroad where they may play in lesser leagues in which they can hold back while also gaining new ideas for the side (two birds one stone). It may also help their confidence being the big star in a league for once. I think that makes a bit more sense haha

Good concept for English players. In reality they would sooner sit on the arse on the bench for Aston Villa for their £30k a week, rather than go and play regularly in Portugal for £10k

 

[Kenilworth]

Brian Deane is a model that others should follow - Not only did he go abroad to play, he has also travelled abroad to get management experience - something he has been excluded from in England. Hopefully he will learn much in that environment and then be in a position to become a successful manager in England. However, my concern around that is that the game here is full of Billy Big Bollox who know everything before their careers have even started and their agents appear to know even more, so instead of on pitch development and success it's all about short term return and the money.

No team ethic survives the clamour for a larger wad than the next muppet.

 

[ChrisBlade]

One point I would like to add when you look at England's physically lethargic look in all of the recent tournaments is this:

This time around it wasn't just us that looked off the pace. I felt that several of our key imports who play for other international teams equally looked a shadow of their usual selves they were, say, in January. All of Edin Dzeko, Sergio Aguero, Yaya Toure, Olivier Giroud, Eden Hazard to name but a few have looked slow, ponderous and over-played to me. I mean, come on, Stevie G. looks knackered after the warm-up.

I took from this that the relentless pace and the number of matches in the EPL kill everybody - not just our players.

Suarez, meanwhile, was okay despite a recent injury - possibly because his lengthy ban ensured that he only played the equivalent of a French or German season, rather than La Liga or the EPL.

There may be something in the suggestion of winter breaks...

 

[pommpey]

There may be something in the suggestion of winter breaks...

Trouble is, with EPL and the leagues below, you will either have thiese phenomena with winter breaks:

1. Shorter post-season and then less time for pre-season and consolidation
2. Smaller leagues
3. Less competition-based involvement. And being as the League and FA Cup bring in miniscule amounts into a PL club compared with the Champions League, I think I can guess which they will ditch.

pommpey

 

[Newbury Blade]

If there is a winter break, you can bet your ski boots the big clubs will be off to play lucrative friendlies in sunnier climes, so the players won't get any rest but they and their clubs will get even more money.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

If there is a winter break, you can bet your ski boots the big clubs will be off to play lucrative friendlies in sunnier climes, so the players won't get any rest but they and their clubs will get even more money.

Nail on the head as to why the bigger clubs are so keen on a winter break.

 

[ChrisBlade]

I am a club over country man. And I like my lower league footie. So far be it from me to be campaigning for a winter break. I just felt that the Premier League players almost without exception looked disappointing.

If you add in Portugal and Spain's fiascos - further teams made up of players from teams in larger leagues who competed far into the Champions League, Germany's strength could also partly be in the fact that they easily play 10 to 15 fewer matches a season.

So only an attempt at explaining, not a call for change. Now if Scotland made up of 9 Blades bomb in 2018, I may change my mind...

 

[wizadry]

I thought moyes would come into it somewhere along the line

 

[metalblade]

I am a club over country man. And I like my lower league footie. So far be it from me to be campaigning for a winter break. I just felt that the Premier League players almost without exception looked disappointing.

If you add in Portugal and Spain's fiascos - further teams made up of players from teams in larger leagues who competed far into the Champions League, Germany's strength could also partly be in the fact that they easily play 10 to 15 fewer matches a season.

So only an attempt at explaining, not a call for change. Now if Scotland made up of 9 Blades bomb in 2018, I may change my mind...

The Germans only have 2 teams less in the Bundesliga than our Premiership so I don't know how that equates to 10 -15 games a season less ? Still the Premiership would love a closed shop of 10 teams no doubt

 

[Highbury_Blade]

The Germans only have 2 teams less in the Bundesliga than our Premiership so I don't know how that equates to 10 -15 games a season less ? Still the Premiership would love a closed shop of 10 teams no doubt

4 less games in the league, and they only have one cup competition.