It's a bit worrying in it..

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SandyMcBlade

SandyMcBlade

Bennyandtheblades
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First off got to admit I don't go to the youth games, but I like to read what them as does write, and although i keep hearing glowing stories about goal keepers, defenders, and midfield players for the future there never seems to be anything about any strikers coming through ..
Surely after all theses years of having an academy there has to be someone who can play center forward, in my day everybody wanted to play center forward and bang goals in, but now every body seems to be an attacking midfielder,
We've developed players like Mick Jones, Kieth Edwards, Billy Sharp in the past so were are those type of players now....
Goal keepers Center half's midfield players we have by the hundred weight so why haven't we got the sharp end, were have all the center forwards gone ?
.
 

There's a young lad called Diego Di Girolamo who seems highly rated;)

Although from what I hear, he has been a bit of a daft lad recently and upset the boss. Not a good thing to do!:rolleyes:
 
Bayingblade said:
There's a young lad called Diego Di Girolamo who seems highly rated;)

Although from what I hear, he has been a bit of a daft lad recently and upset the boss. Not a good thing to do!:rolleyes:
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Oooooohh not all he is cracked up to be perhaps?
 
Old ground, I appreciate, but I always wonder how much it (really, really) costs us to run. I've previously estimated (from similar academies) that it's in excess of £2M per year. I wonder if it's done anything more than break even over its' life, and how may Scougalls and Murphy's have been missed out on through not having cash on the hip at the time of need.

It's clearly had it's success stories (2 X Kyles being the obvious hits), but I bet if they ever imagined us falling to the 3rd tier of English football, they would have hoped for more than the odd first team regular breaking through.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Old ground, I appreciate, but I always wonder how much it (really, really) costs us to run. I've previously estimated (from similar academies) that it's in excess of £2M per year. I wonder if it's done anything more than break even over its' life, and how may Scougalls and Murphy's have been missed out on through not having cash on the hip at the time of need.

It's clearly had it's success stories (2 X Kyles being the obvious hits), but I bet if they ever imagined us falling to the 3rd tier of English football, they would have hoped for more than the odd first team regular breaking through.

UTB
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Depends how you look at it Alco. Being in the 3rd tier gives the academy lads more of a chance I would say. It certainly looks like a few will get the chance given that against Rotherham, 6 academy lads played all or part of the game - Long, Maguire, Kenedy, Dimaio, Khan and Reed. I know it was special circumstances but it's still a long time since that happened.
 
Bayingblade said:
Depends how you look at it Alco. Being in the 3rd tier gives the academy lads more of a chance I would say. It certainly looks like a few will get the chance given that against Rotherham, 6 academy lads played all or part of the game - Long, Maguire, Kenedy, Dimaio, Khan and Reed. I know it was special circumstances but it's still a long time since that happened.
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Agreed. But if the young lads trained on the park nearby with T-shirts for goals, we's have put 6 in against Rotherham in those circumstances. It's only when they break through on their own merit that we should get excited.

UTB
 
alcoblade said:
Agreed. But if the young lads trained on the park nearby with T-shirts for goals, we's have put 6 in against Rotherham in those circumstances. It's only when they break through on their own merit that we should get excited.

UTB
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Bit harsh Alco :)

Regardless of the circumstances it's still good to see them make those first, tentative first team steps. And quite assured steps they were in most peoples opinion. They also won, which helps:)
 
We had a young striker come through a few years back sold him for 1m quid lets be honest if we had one again I am sure the same would happen so probably a good thing. ;)
 
alcoblade said:
Old ground, I appreciate, but I always wonder how much it (really, really) costs us to run. I've previously estimated (from similar academies) that it's in excess of £2M per year. I wonder if it's done anything more than break even over its' life, and how may Scougalls and Murphy's have been missed out on through not having cash on the hip at the time of need.

It's clearly had it's success stories (2 X Kyles being the obvious hits), but I bet if they ever imagined us falling to the 3rd tier of English football, they would have hoped for more than the odd first team regular breaking through.

UTB
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You need a first team manager who buys into the academy system and the benefits you get from giving them a chance.
We've had a line of managers who have neglected the youngsters and paid lip service, at best, to the academy. Only turning to it if they ran out of alternate options.
Clough is couldn't be more different, even to the extent that some fans might be disappointed that the cheque book may not be thrown at a perceived issue because an option exists, albeit a raw option, in the academy. Watch this space.
 
Flatulent_Bob said:
You need a first team manager who buys into the academy system and the benefits you get from giving them a chance.
We've had a line of managers who have neglected the youngsters and paid lip service, at best, to the academy. Only turning to it if they ran out of alternate options.
Clough is couldn't be more different, even to the extent that some fans might be disappointed that the cheque book may not be thrown at a perceived issue because an option exists, albeit a raw option, in the academy. Watch this space.
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I heard an alternative view on this from within the club. The club and fans want to see the youngsters transition into the first team and develop. The managers may also want this.

However, the manager always knows that in football you've got perhaps a job for 2-3 years, perhaps less - it seems nowadays that even a new manager only has until October in his first/ new season to prove himself otherwise he could be out on his arse. October/ November there seemed more sackings throughout the leagues. That's worrying.

On this basis, the manager is going to want to spend any budget he has on bringing in a proven player, this doesn't just apply to goal scorers, it applies across the pitch. An expensive loanee could be the short term answer for a manager.

Why would a manager risk his job bringing through an 18-21 year old rough diamond which may or may not come good in 2-3 seasons time.

The transfer window also has a big part to play as well, a manager may bring in more players just to ensure he has the squad to cope in the event of injuries/ suspensions mid season.

With Clough though I think were starting to see a good balance - permanent signings of the right age, some quality loanees (albeit Coady was a Weir masterstroke) and now he's bringing through one or two of the lads like Kennedy and Dimaio.

Clough has only really been able to bring the younger lads through though because he's shipped a lot of the fringe players out on loan. The summer will be interesting
 

United's record of developing strikers in recent times is pathetic.

The last home grown player to be top scorer was Tony Philliskirk, in 1988, with a mighty 9 goals. He scored 20 in 5 seasons after coming into the side in 1983-4.

Since then we've produced the following forwards who've scored more than the odd goal for us:

Clive Mendonca: 5 league goals. Sold by Bassett after a promising start, failed the second time, scored for fun everywhere else.

Billy Sharp: 8 league goals. Sold by Warnock, and a poor second spell. Scored for fun everywhere else. Possibly the most disappointing United career of the modern era

Lee Morris: 6 league goals: one good season, sold for more than he was worth, injuries ruined his career.

Jordan Slew: 3 league goals: sold as soon as humanly possible, done nothing of any note since.

That's it. 4 strikers in 30 years, all of whom were sold quickly, and 2 of whom did nothing in a second spell.
 
SwissBlade said:
Clough has only really been able to bring the younger lads through though because he's shipped a lot of the fringe players out on loan. The summer will be interesting
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True but if Clough decides that the likes of Brandy, Taylor and Cuvelier have no future at the club then there will be takers - the only issues being the cost of writing off the £500k investment in the latter two.

The other loanees - Miller, Whitehouse, McFadzean, Westlake, McGinty and Johns - are out of contract and I'd be amazed if they get offered extensions; we've already got shot of Marcus Williams (who we'll likely see back at the Lane next season o_O)

Add in Hill, Howard and Porter's impending contract ends and there's a real opportunity to overhaul the squad.
 
SwissBlade said:
I heard an alternative view on this from within the club. The club and fans want to see the youngsters transition into the first team and develop. The managers may also want this.
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Do you know what, I don't care, and I don't think many do - though they would answer otherwise. It's about winning, not developing young players. That's a (debatable) means to an end.

Local youth sounds wonderful, but will they show more loyalty than Murphy or Scougal will? I doubt it. Like all players, they will be off it the first whiff of a brighter future.

I want to see United succeeding. In so much as that involves developing players cheaply, then I'm all for it, because it leaves money in the kitty for other signings. But back to the original point, I question how cheap it is.

UTB
 
SwissBlade , I'd agree but I think that proves they don't buy into the system. If they did it could give them longer. Fans can see if players are being brought through and tend to give them more time. That said I have states on many times that our fans haven't been the most patient but I honestly think that is changing. Lessons hopefully have been learnt from laying into young players like Coady, Flynn etc who have come through the other side.
 
But this doesn't cover my point, why this almost compulsive trend of midfield players, any other position in the team seem coincidental.
Oh you'll get mid field players who can cover at full back or on the wing and even up front but they still consider them selves either attacking or defending midfielders
Like goalkeeping goal scoring is a specialist job and you wouldn't think of sticking a midfield player in goal on a permanent basis would you, so why do it at center forward ?
And why when they do sign a goal scorer do they stick him on the wing ?
 
SandyMcBlade said:
But this doesn't cover my point, why this almost compulsive trend of midfield players, any other position in the team seem coincidental.
Oh you'll get mid field players who can cover at full back or on the wing and even up front but they still consider them selves either attacking or defending midfielders
Like goalkeeping goal scoring is a specialist job and you wouldn't think of sticking a midfield player in goal on a permanent basis would you, so why do it at center forward ?
And why when they do sign a goal scorer do they stick him on the wing ?
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Cus some ones got to cross it for them, just not found one quick enough to get on the end of the cross yet. :(
 
I think you're right Flatulent_Bob

It really frustrates me when young players have a few bad games and they get written off by fans. Clough has certainly changed the attitude of many fans and players like Flynn, murphy and even Doyle have thrived under him.

It's probably good that we've not made the play offs with a handful of games to go because the pressure is off ( from the fans). The cup semi also helped as it allowed us an excuse to play so many youngsters against Rotherham.

I'm going to port vale on Friday expecting to see a few of these young lads getting a chance

It sets things up nicely for the summer, for players like miller and Taylor coming back in a few weeks it gives Clough a nice headache for this summer
 
Just seen its the last U18 game today - can you just go to the academy and watch them play?
 
Bents Green said:
Just seen its the last U18 game today - can you just go to the academy and watch them play?
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Yep, the 18's and 16's normally play on the top pitches. Just wander up :)
 
SwissBlade said:
I think you're right Flatulent_Bob

It really frustrates me when young players have a few bad games and they get written off by fans. Clough has certainly changed the attitude of many fans and players like Flynn, murphy and even Doyle have thrived under him.

It's probably good that we've not made the play offs with a handful of games to go because the pressure is off ( from the fans). The cup semi also helped as it allowed us an excuse to play so many youngsters against Rotherham.

I'm going to port vale on Friday expecting to see a few of these young lads getting a chance

It sets things up nicely for the summer, for players like miller and Taylor coming back in a few weeks it gives Clough a nice headache for this summer
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I agree regarding Flynn & Murphy, however, I think its a bit of an overstatement to say that Doyle has "thrived". I would suggest "clung onto his place for some mysterious reason" is more accurate. Doyle is the weak link in our midfield having neither the pace to keep up with play, nor the range of passing to be a playmaker. This is a position which must be improved if we are to have any realistic chance of competing for an automatic promotion place next season.
UTB & FTP
 
SwissBlade said:
Doyle is thriving now
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He's done very well since his suspension, no doubt.

Next season however, the objective will be automatic promotion. Central midfield is a key position, especially as NC is likely to revert to his preferred 4-4-2. I think we need to, and will, do better than Doyle.

That said, I have seen much to admire about Doyle since NC's arrival and I wish him well.
 
Pinchy said:
He's done very well since his suspension, no doubt.

Next season however, the objective will be automatic promotion. Central midfield is a key position, especially as NC is likely to revert to his preferred 4-4-2. I think we need to, and will, do better than Doyle.

That said, I have seen much to admire about Doyle since NC's arrival and I wish him well.
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I agree. To play Doyle now you have to have a 3 man midfield which is a false economy unless you unearth a goalscoring midfielder. I do however see Clough trying to keep with this formation this season and just improving specific positions such as a box to box midfielder and striker. I am not his biggest fan but at least he is proving more than useful under current conditions.

Also, note since his sending off his demeanor has changed considerably on the pitch. (IMO of course :) )
 

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