Is there a change of style without McGoldrick?

[Sheffsteel]

When we were promoted most neutrals thought we’d be a Warnock esque Stoke type team.
All the cliches came out, we’ll be tough, physical, work so hard and be organised making it tough for the opposition.

Although this did apply......there was no awareness of our slick one touch quick passing game...
Remember the 1st 30 minutes away at Wolves? We were like the home team and passed them off the park.
Remember the 1st 85 minutes away at Spurs? Again we were like the home team and controlled it with good composed passing.
Remember the 1st 70 minutes home to Man Utd? We outpassed and generally outclassed them in a one sided match.
Remember the 3-0 win at home to Burnley? We were superior playing some attractive...nice passing..keep possession football.
We had this knack of making the opposition look really poor but this hasn’t happened recently.

It all started away at Liverpool....we were outclassed and maybe it’s affected the players confidence.
Away at Liverpool, home to West Ham, away at Arsenal, home to Man City. ...we‘ve started to look like a Warnock team in possession.
Fortunately we have a great defence/ keeper and always work hard..so even when we are underpar...we’re still tough to beat.

However we need to address how we play without McGoldrick....and before that how we coped without Duffy.
I’m hoping it’s just a lack of confidence after playing so many fantastic sides recently...but we need to get our composure in possession back.

Most teams in the PL have a style of play...either tippy tappy passing...or more direct long ball passing.
Our strength was (like Liverpool) we mix the 2 styles within the same match. We’ll play nice patient build up short passing....then try the occasional long pass.
However in recent matches because we’ve played better teams and defended deeper meaning we are too reliant on the direct long pass.

Noticed how recent “Roy’s view froms” talk about the cliches of tough, we’ll drilled, physical, organised.
Where as in our first 15 matches the feedback was always “it was their worse performance of the season”.
This is because in early games we often looked superior to the opposition but that’s now stopped and we’re now plucky, tough and hardworking.

We’ve been really under par in possession recently. Have opposition managers worked us out?
Is our short passing style (that we started in league 1) evolving into a direct/ long pass style?
Does the absence of McGoldrick affect our style and what can we do about it?

Our next 6 fixtures are against (on paper) easier opposition so hopefully we’ll regain our confidence and composure when in possession.

 

[Bath Blade]

It's partially playing without McGoldrick, but also playing with McBurnie, we tend to go longer and aim for his head. I don't know if it's a deliberate tactic, or they just feel the ball to McBurnie's head is an easy get-out when under pressure. I remember when Peter Crouch used to play for England, our world-class midfielders would just revert to lumping it to Crouch's head, which harmed our overall effectiveness, and wasn't Crouch's fault. Feels similar when McBurnie plays.

 

[anglian blade]

A number of times last night we started to create an overlap and then the ball was passed backwards or sideways instead of into or ahead of the most forward player. It looks like we have lost confidence in making that forward pass in case it goes astray and leaves us stretched at the back..

 

[JackSUFC]

Does anyone genuinely expect us to try and out-football Liverpool and Man City?

 

[ATL Recs]

It's partially playing without McGoldrick, but also playing with McBurnie, we tend to go longer and aim for his head. I don't know if it's a deliberate tactic, or they just feel the ball to McBurnie's head is an easy get-out when under pressure. I remember when Peter Crouch used to play for England, our world-class midfielders would just revert to lumping it to Crouch's head, which harmed our overall effectiveness, and wasn't Crouch's fault. Feels similar when McBurnie plays.

World class midfielders, England, whats that all about then?

 

[Bath Blade]

World class midfielders, England, whats that all about then?

Should have had it in inverted commas!

 

[gordoncharles]

Does anyone genuinely expect us to try and out-football Liverpool and Man City?

The OP makes the point we have been also very direct against Arsenal and West Ham and I agree.

It's not just that we've played Man City and Liverpool three times between them in the last 5 games, it's like it's becoming a trend and to be honest, even allowing for the opposition, we don't look like a side that will finish in the top 10 - at the moment.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Does anyone genuinely expect us to try and out-football Liverpool and Man City?

No but I would expect us to try and have more possession and make our way up field every now and then like we did away at Wolves and Spurs,

There were spells in the 2nd half where we were just booting it clear to nobody.......it reminded me of the Warnock style.
In previous games before Xmas we’ve calmly played it out if defence and worked our way up field.

Its as though in recent games we’ve seen so little of the ball that we are in “batten down the hatches” mode.
As said we are impressive when we don’t have the ball and made it difficult for Man City
but we seemed almost overawed when we did have the ball and our first thought was to hit it long to McBurnie.

If it’s a one off it’s OK but apart from the 1st 10 minutes and last 10 minutes we looked poor in possession against Arsenal too.
We were also poor in possession at home to West Ham too........it’s as though we’re becoming a defensive long pass counter attacking team.

Hopefully we’ll return to our normal style in the next 6 games when we play easier opposition.

 

[Sheffsteel]

The OP makes the point we have been also very direct against Arsenal and West Ham and I agree.

It's not just that we've played Man City and Liverpool three times between them in the last 5 games, it's like it's becoming a trend and to be honest, even allowing for the opposition, we don't look like a side that will finish in the top 10 - at the moment.

That was my point.

Based on performances and general play before the new year we DID look like realistic challenges for top 7.
Almost every team we played against performed poorly against us.....we matched or bettered every team we played (including Leicester, Chelsea and Man Utd).

However since Liverpool away based on performances and general player we DON’T look a top 10 side.
We’re still good, tough, organised etc but we no longer look a high quality passing side.....we are slowly morphing into a Burnley style.

Its as though the opposition have stopped under estimating us or have worked our out system or the players are tired or maybe the players are naturally relaxing becuase it looks like we’re safe or without McGoldrick we miss a vital ingredient to our keep possession passing game.

 

[biggey blade]

The OP makes the point we have been also very direct against Arsenal and West Ham and I agree.

It's not just that we've played Man City and Liverpool three times between them in the last 5 games, it's like it's becoming a trend and to be honest, even allowing for the opposition, we don't look like a side that will finish in the top 10 - at the moment.

I am sorry pal but I think that's a load of rubbish. In the last 5 games we have had city home and away arsenal away liverpool away and west ham. Theres only really west ham we can say we was having a bit of a off game but still managed to win ugly the other games we have passed it a little more direct but who doesn't when playing man city liverpool and even arsenal away? We tried to pass our way out at the back for times in all these matches and have passed the ball quite well in them all other than a couple of way ward long balls etc quite a lot last night which irritated me but we was playing man city arguably the best attacking side in the league how can we not play it long at times? We have just got our hardest games out of the way and now only have a handful of "top 6" teams to play been in man u away spurs and chelsea at home I am sure we will get back to our usual ways very soon in games that are winnable. As for us not looking like a top 10 side at the minute I also don't agree with that we haven't looked our best agreed but we also haven't allowed liverpool man city or arsenal to look there best in the last 5 games every oposing player we have played in these 3 games are totally world class and have been made to work hard in order for any kind of result at all. Man city and liverpool at home both ended in a 1-0 loss yet you think we don't look like a top ten side? They brush away lower opposition with ease. Man city have scored 9 goals in 2 games against Aston villa who also come up this season some people need to get realistic if they think we arent going to be forced to play it long at times against man city and liverpool.

 

[Ricky]

We’re still good, tough, organised etc but we no longer look a high quality passing side.....we are slowly morphing into a Burnley style.

There's certainly the danger of that. I hope our recruitment ahead of next season helps us steer clear of it. It's down to Wilder to ensure we progress in the right way.

 

[Houston_Blade]

If you remember back to Aston Villa away last season we played a certain style, let 3 sloppy goals in late on, got accused by a lot of our own fans of being "bottling c*nts" and then played a more reserved style for the remainder of the season.

We then evolved this system to cope with the PL, dropping the 10 and playing a DCM and 2 CM's. It's done ok so far I think.

The style is now evolving again to make us harder to beat against teams that have now sat up and taken notice (Liverpool and Man City), who at the first time of asking just expected us to lie down and have our bellies tickled but them realised that they have to beat us for work rate first and then the football does the rest.

The West Ham game was a cautious approach for a game that we didn't want to lose.

I'm not seeing us all of a sudden becoming Stoke though.

 

[dc_blade]

Massive overreaction to a difficult run of fixtures at a time of the season when fixture congestion plays a big part. We’ll be back to playing our usual style soon enough—although let’s remember Wilder has never been precious about getting it forward quickly when necessary.

Anyone who thinks tippy-tappy playing out from the back is somehow connected to finishing top ten should go and watch Norwich for the rest of the season.

 

[Sheffsteel]

If you remember back to Aston Villa away last season we played a certain style, let 3 sloppy goals in late on, got accused by a lot of our own fans of being "bottling c*nts" and then played a more reserved style for the remainder of the season.

We then evolved this system to cope with the PL, dropping the 10 and playing a DCM and 2 CM's. It's done ok so far I think.

The style is now evolving again to make us harder to beat against teams that have now sat up and taken notice (Liverpool and Man City), who at the first time of asking just expected us to lie down and have our bellies tickled but them realised that they have to beat us for work rate first and then the football does the rest.

The West Ham game was a cautious approach for a game that we didn't want to lose.

I'm not seeing us all of a sudden becoming Stoke though.

Agree with that.
Towards the end of last season after the Villa game we stopped trying to be as expansive and positive.
Instead we built our success in not conceding and being consistent/ well drilled like a machine.

What is interesting is comparing United‘s Wilder with Leeds Bielsa.

Leeds play high intensity attacking football which is impressive to watch.
However they only have plan A and struggle against teams set up to stifle them.
Bielsa’s response to this......is to play plan A better....his stubbornness to ignore alternatives is weird...almost like a mental blockage.

Whereas Chris Wilder (think Alan Knill might be behind it too) is really self critical and pragmatic regards tactics.
Wilder has a plan A, plan B and plan C and isn’t scared of being very direct or defensive when required.

As already said by another poster it’s tricky to judge anything played just played some brilliant opposition....no wonder we’re going to look ordinary.
However I also think W & K will already be working on our style for next season.

 

[Large Mendonca]

World class midfielders, England, whats that all about then?

Agreed. World class footballers can play with both feet, Steven Gerrard couldn't.

 

[BushBlade]

That was my point.

Based on performances and general play before the new year we DID look like realistic challenges for top 7.
Almost every team we played against performed poorly against us.....we matched or bettered every team we played (including Leicester, Chelsea and Man Utd).

However since Liverpool away based on performances and general player we DON’T look a top 10 side.
We’re still good, tough, organised etc but we no longer look a high quality passing side.....we are slowly morphing into a Burnley style.

Its as though the opposition have stopped under estimating us or have worked our out system or the players are tired or maybe the players are naturally relaxing becuase it looks like we’re safe or without McGoldrick we miss a vital ingredient to our keep possession passing game.

‘Its as though the opposition have stopped under estimating us or have worked our out system or the players are tired or maybe the players are naturally relaxing becuase it looks like we’re safe or without McGoldrick we miss a vital ingredient to our keep possession passing game.’

I think you’ve answered your own question there. There’s a reason they call this the business end of the season; the shit managers have been sacked, the players have to impress and the complacency they may have had earlier in the season has gone.
Did you see Arsenal come back against Chelsea last night with ten men? Not a chance that would have happened under Emery. West Ham are in a genuine relegation battle, they’re fighting for their wallets.

They’ve all played us now, they know what we’re about. They know to press us, to stop Norwood from getting his passes off.

With the court cases now settled, CW knows how vital it is we stay up and that takes precedent over playing attractive football.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

I think this probably needs revisiting in a month’s time. For the time-being, I’m putting the dip in our passing game down at this stage down to the run of fixtures and the tough opposition we’ve faced. We have a bit of a breather now and some relatively easier looking games coming up where if we’re on it we should see a return to normal. If at that point it has not, then perhaps there’s merit in the OP.

That all being said, I thought our passing game for the first 10-15 mins of the Arsenal match was as good as it’s been this season. That didn’t involve McGoldrick and was all of 4 days ago.

 

[Bladesman]

Does anyone genuinely expect us to try and out-football Liverpool and Man City?

Yes.

 

[Speedracer]

I think it is really difficult to judge us based on our last 5 games & opponents to be honest, Wet Sham apart. I think we have the 2nd or 3rd best defence in the league on stats & it would be foolish to ignore this & try & play swashbuckling attacking football against the very best teams. We want to stay in this league & keeping them out at one end is arguably more important than leaving gaps at the back going on all out attack. If we were to continue in this way for the next few games & get drawn into a relegation struggle our current goal difference is a massive plus for us. We have to walk before we can run & to do that we have to stay in this league, do we really want us to go all gung-ho & ship a load of goals every week life Villa, Norwich etc?
We have to take a pragmatic approach to certain games, that is sensible management, & now we can see some fixtures coming we feel we can win, plus Goldy's return, we will see a return to our passing game. No one likes losing, but if damage limitation in some games is a price for staying in this league I am sure CWAK & the players are happy to pay it.

 

[guancheblade]

I've suggested in previous threads we develop Ravel to step in for McGoldrick when he's injured. He has all the attributes and it keeps him away from the centre of the park where we'd need to rely on a more defensive minded player.

This would allow us to keep playing our most effective brand of football without reverting to hoof.

 

[Greenblades]

I think it’s quite smart to mix it up. Of all the leagues in the world you will be analysed and people will change systems to solve problems. Right now we don’t have The luxury of quality everywhere in the 25 squad. Over time I trust that CW will gradually change this. People have said Norwood has not been as effective in the last few games and that could also be because the opposition have pushed on him more. The next 4 games define our season for me not the last 4. A good points return will see us safe and we can plan for next year. Having the ability to pass through lines or go long for a team in its first year in the premiership is in itself a great achievement. Norwich are where they are because they can’t adapt.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

I don’t think we’ve been “worked out”, as such. Though closing Norwood down to prevent us switching play from deep, and simultaneously pressing us in the wide areas, have certainly been astute moves by recent oppo. Leeds did this to us last season at the Lane, too, very effectively, so it’s nowt new.

When teams do this it leaves us with, crudely speaking, three options.

Option 1, we can play through the middle, which is tough without McGoldrick’s or, dare I say, L Freeman‘s trickery, and puts big pressure on Flecky, who has shown himself to be properly destructive when driving with the ball, but who isn’t “creative” in the manner of a Dids or an LF (if LF ever gets the chance to show it).

Option 1 is harder, of course, when up against teams of the quality we’ve played in the last few weeks, and is less likely to work if (a) our more technical/creative players aren’t in the squad, and if (b) Lundstram isn’t supporting with the high energy box to box schtick he nailed in the opening games.

Option 2, we can hit channel balls from deep for Moose to run on to, as per Man City away. This obvs doesn’t work if Moose isn’t on the pitch, as we have no-one else rapid enough to get in behind. It also doesn’t work if Moose IS on the pitch but doesn‘t make the right runs, or is buggered.

Option 3, lump it longer at McBurnie, and look for the knock downs. There was MUCH more than this to our game last night. But there was also plenty of this too.

So, three conclusions. We need the Moose properly fit and playing 90 mins. We need additional pace up top. We need more trickery in midfield.

Ideally, we’d begin addressing these in what‘s left of the JTW. If not, let’s hope we kick on again in the summer.

In the meantime, what a season. Fuck Lee Mason. And fuck VAR.

 

[Badger Blade]

Horses for courses for me, it's good that we can adapt and change things if it's not working where we can just as easily pass the ball round someone as boot it long and rough people up. Look at how we played against Burnley when we played them off the park and all they could do was play long ball football and did it badly.

Liverpool and Man City are two ridiculously good teams though and just because you pass the ball about doesn't mean you can't also give someone a good kicking if it's needed. We strike a good balance between that whereas someone like Arsenal have played pretty football for years but have less backbone than a jellyfish since the likes of Vieira retired (one of my all time favourite players FWIW).

 

[BushBlade]

I don’t think we’ve been “worked out”, as such. Though closing Norwood down to prevent us switching play from deep, and simultaneously pressing us in the wide areas, have certainly been astute moves by recent oppo. Leeds did this to us last season at the Lane, too, very effectively, so it’s nowt new.

When teams do this it leaves us with, crudely speaking, three options.

Option 1, we can play through the middle, which is tough without McGoldrick’s or, dare I say, L Freeman‘s trickery, and puts big pressure on Flecky, who has shown himself to be properly destructive when driving with the ball, but who isn’t “creative” in the manner of a Dids or an LF (if LF ever gets the chance to show it).

Option 1 is harder, of course, when up against teams of the quality we’ve played in the last few weeks, and is less likely to work if (a) our more technical/creative players aren’t in the squad, and if (b) Lundstram isn’t supporting with the high energy box to box schtick he nailed in the opening games.

Option 2, we can hit channel balls from deep for Moose to run on to, as per Man City away. This obvs doesn’t work if Moose isn’t on the pitch, as we have no-one else rapid enough to get in behind. It also doesn’t work if Moose IS on the pitch but doesn‘t make the right runs, or is buggered.

Option 3, lump it longer at McBurnie, and look for the knock downs. There was MUCH more than this to our game last night. But there was also plenty of this too.

So, three conclusions. We need the Moose properly fit and playing 90 mins. We need additional pace up top. We need more trickery in midfield.

Ideally, we’d begin addressing these in what‘s left of the JTW. If not, let’s hope we kick on again in the summer.

In the meantime, what a season. Fuck Lee Mason. And fuck VAR.

A lot of sides will drop back once you start hitting it over the top, which then creates space for us to start passing it around. That’s what has happened in the majority of matches I’ve watched. Pep doesn’t let his defence do that, he keeps them holding a high line so the rest of the team can keep pressing. They’ve been drilled to do it.
They’re a top side with top players who’ll still finish on between 80 and 90 points and we’ve come away from that game thinking we might have got something.

 

[Ridgeway Blade]

I think Tuesday was a deliberate change of style. Wilder was often indicating to his midfield and forward players to get closer together from the long ball played to McBurinie and Sharp. To a great extent that worked as they both won their fair share of the ball, especially in the first half. I think this seemed to me so that we could try and win the second ball and at least we weeren't tying to play out from the back as we usually do. As expected Man City and Liverpool not only have better players but they work very hard to get the ball back as quickly as possible and Wilderr may have thought we don't want to be constantly pinned in at the back.. Whether the lack of McGHoldrick was a factor in the change or whether Wilder thought the most suspect part of their team is at the back and therefore try and put them under aerial pressure I don't know. What I do know is that we gave them a really tough hard game which thye won with a genuine piece of skill rather than the dark art of hitting the deck at a slight touch and gaining a penalty.

 

[lakedistblade]

Teams have learned to get numbers out wide to counter our overloads and press Norwood. No one better at this than Man City. They made us look poor in the way we have done to other teams. We need to be mentally strong to regain confidence and the initiative against teams coming up. On past experience we will certainly do this and in any case have put ourselves in a very strong position to stay up. Rest of season going to be very interesting and I don't exclude a confidence building cup run. Mcgoldrick and Didsy hitting form together would be something else.

 

[Benny and the Blades]

After spending what for us was a great deal of money on players in the closed season, I don't think we have gotten anyway near the value for the cash spent, we have in the past.

 

[BushBlade]

After spending what for us was a great deal of money on players in the closed season, I don't think we have gotten anyway near the value for the cash spent, we have in the past.

I couldn’t disagree more. Unless you’re saying the whole of the Premier League is poor value for money. In which case, I think you have a point, but relative to the PL, we’ve got very good value for money.

 

[Speedracer]

Mcgoldrick and Didsy hitting form together would be something else.

Erm, absolutely essential I would say mate.

 

[BladeTillIDie]

People saying don't turn into a Burnley type team but want players like Jeff Hendrick in the summer? When ive seen him for the ROI hes fucking awful.