If Wilder is sacked….

[Gavlar]

Sean Dyche?
He won’t come.
He will easily get a prem job.

 

[Champagneblade]

I would say give wilder pre season and 15 games. I do think hes got some things wrong but we're almost safe so minimum objective almost done. And the owners badly screwed up.

But if that fails we do need a LONG TERM appointment. Im far too clueless to know who though

What is a long term appointment?

If we think that United will give anyone 5 years to build in the Championship then we’re suffering the same delusion as Wednesday fans.

In the long term we’re all dead. Gone are the days of Guy Roux managing Auxerre for 30+ years.

If a manager has success then he’ll leave for a bigger club, unless it is someone like Wilder who is a fan. If we underachieve the fans will want them gone.

If Wilder applied for the vacant United
job tomorrow he’d probably get it on merit
and experience.

If far better were interested then we’d have ended up better off than with Sellés last summer. While we are out of the top flight we aren’t that much of a pull, especially without parachute payments. We also won’t get relegated under Wilder.

He has a rebuild to do. He’s shown in the League One season and 2 seasons back that he’s actually quite decent at it.

Just let the bloke get on with it. Some may feel that his bar has a certain maximum but his minimum is far above plenty of the alternatives.

Careful what you wish for…

 

[CPB]

What is a long term appointment?

If we think that United will give anyone 5 years to build in the Championship then we’re suffering the same delusion as Wednesday fans.

In the long term we’re all dead. Gone are the days of Guy Roux managing Auxerre for 30+ years.

If a manager has success then he’ll leave for a bigger club, unless it is someone like Wilder who is a fan. If we underachieve the fans will want them gone.

If Wilder applied for the vacant United
job tomorrow he’d probably get it on merit
and experience.

If far better were interested then we’d have ended up better off than with Sellés last summer. While we are out of the top flight we aren’t that much of a pull, especially without parachute payments. We also won’t get relegated under Wilder.

He has a rebuild to do. He’s shown in the League One season and 2 seasons back that he’s actually quite decent at it.

Just let the bloke get on with it. Some may feel that his bar has a certain maximum but his minimum is far above plenty of the alternatives.

Careful what you wish for…

I would say we are a decent pull especially last season with another year of parachute payments.

Selles was a Bord recommendation and the owners went all in in him. Without even entertaining really anyone else. As has been reported.
I remember when we got him thinking what's he really done though? And what do his former clubs think. Hoping there was something there.
We could have hired much better. And started the ball rolling for dof.

This all said I'm also with you of letting Wilder rebuild and have some stability. We looked so bad early this season and we at least didn't get dragged into the fight like Leicester have. Sure we flirted with top 6 and ultimately hit poor form.
But from where we were it's a decent turn up.

We do need to look at the structure though. DOF or better recruitment infrastructure is needed for sure.

 

[Blademan89]

I would say we are a decent pull especially last season with another year of parachute payments.

Selles was a Bord recommendation and the owners went all in in him. Without even entertaining really anyone else. As has been reported.
I remember when we got him thinking what's he really done though? And what do his former clubs think. Hoping there was something there.
We could have hired much better. And started the ball rolling for dof.

This all said I'm also with you of letting Wilder rebuild and have some stability. We looked so bad early this season and we at least didn't get dragged into the fight like Leicester have. Sure we flirted with top 6 and ultimately hit poor form.
But from where we were it's a decent turn up.

We do need to look at the structure though. DOF or better recruitment infrastructure is needed for sure.

Give wilder this next upcoming season, fully buy into his rebuild (he has good track record of these), we should be pretty much safe in his hands next season. Use that time next season to activity look for and put in place a new structure as mentioned DoF, recruitment & behind the scenes infrastructure. Make sure we hsve a clear goal and identity of how we want to be and play, start looking at potential new players to fit that style and be flexible, scout these upcoming gems early & as soon as we are mathematically out of promotion race or fail in play off then sack wilder and bring in a new manager nice and early (who we have already identified).

We then reset the following season With everything in place.

If Wilder gets us promoted then give him first 10 games in prem (with the new infrastructure in place regardless).

 

[Keen Blade]

Give wilder this next upcoming season, fully buy into his rebuild (he has good track record of these), we should be pretty much safe in his hands next season. Use that time next season to activity look for and put in place a new structure as mentioned DoF, recruitment & behind the scenes infrastructure. Make sure we hsve a clear goal and identity of how we want to be and play, start looking at potential new players to fit that style and be flexible, scout these upcoming gems early & as soon as we are mathematically out of promotion race or fail in play off then sack wilder and bring in a new manager nice and early (who we have already identified).

We then reset the following season With everything in place.

If Wilder gets us promoted then give him first 10 games in prem (with the new infrastructure in place regardless).

This is the kind of planning which has thus far eluded our naive novice owners.
They have gone from total ignorance and no viable plan , to major ill-conceived decisions , to panic and back to where they started.
I hope to goodness they are starting to gain some understanding of UK Soccer ball and will have recognised where the club requires improvement.
They need to take a long hard look at our journey from 2016 and analyse why we have ended up with a poor squad on something of a slide.
Instead of better utilising the £ and making solid progress.
Our player-trading has been abysmal.
Big bucks have been thrown away on players who've not developed and been sold on for profit.
Indeed , some of the most expensive have simply walked for nothing.
Our self-financing model cannot support such poor recruitment decisions.
Once they've analysed , they need to implement a structure which will foster better outcomes.
Sean criticises me for making it about Bettis & Wilder , but there's only one CEO & one manager at any one time and my reference to them is intended more as a means of saying the structure is not fit for purpose.
The whole scenario needs lifting above "personalities" and into the realm of the owners creating a viable business model which will serve their objectives.
My main worry is that so far they appear not only distant but also lacking in grip.
And having made one big cock-up and panicked their way back to a man they sacked only 3 months previously , they don't look like they're going to have a strategy or a structure which will make a better fist of avoiding what has effectively been "costly failure" since Wilder left in 20/21.

 

[Sean Thornton]

This is the kind of planning which has thus far eluded our naive novice owners.
They have gone from total ignorance and no viable plan , to major ill-conceived decisions , to panic and back to where they started.
I hope to goodness they are starting to gain some understanding of UK Soccer ball and will have recognised where the club requires improvement.
They need to take a long hard look at our journey from 2016 and analyse why we have ended up with a poor squad on something of a slide.
Instead of better utilising the £ and making solid progress.
Our player-trading has been abysmal.
Big bucks have been thrown away on players who've not developed and been sold on for profit.
Indeed , some of the most expensive have simply walked for nothing.
Our self-financing model cannot support such poor recruitment decisions.
Once they've analysed , they need to implement a structure which will foster better outcomes.
Sean criticises me for making it about Bettis & Wilder , but there's only one CEO & one manager at any one time and my reference to them is intended more as a means of saying the structure is not fit for purpose.
The whole scenario needs lifting above "personalities" and into the realm of the owners creating a viable business model which will serve their objectives.
My main worry is that so far they appear not only distant but also lacking in grip.
And having made one big cock-up and panicked their way back to a man they sacked only 3 months previously , they don't look like they're going to have a strategy or a structure which will make a better fist of avoiding what has effectively been "costly failure" since Wilder left in 20/21.

Aw come on Any criticism has been about your claims that Snek has been in charge of some, if not all, footballing decisions. Claims you have no evidence for.

Good to see you’ve now included Wilder in your blame game after the latest back track. #235 for reference.

 

[FredZeppelin]

Give wilder this next upcoming season, fully buy into his rebuild (he has good track record of these), we should be pretty much safe in his hands next season.

How long would you give him if we look like we'll be involved in another potential relegation battle after he brings in more of his own players?

Not being funny towards you, mate but I'm more inclined to think we might be closer to the bottom than the top next season, all things considered.

utb

 

[BangorBlade]

De Zerbi when Spurs sack him at the end of the season

 

[Blademan89]

How long would you give him if we look like we'll be involved in another potential relegation battle after he brings in more of his own players?

Not being funny towards you, mate but I'm more inclined to think we might be closer to the bottom than the top next season, all things considered.

utb

Only 1 season we have been relegated or looked that way with wilder in charge with his own players... hes a capable chamionship manager no doubt, thats my opinion but regarding your question, if we are bottom after like 15 game then get rid.

 

[Blades1971]

These American owners need to get to grips with the culture of this club. You don't change culture overnight.
To change culture you need loads of money.
Just think Bassett, Warnock and Wilder
They got it

 

[CPB]

How long would you give him if we look like we'll be involved in another potential relegation battle after he brings in more of his own players?

Not being funny towards you, mate but I'm more inclined to think we might be closer to the bottom than the top next season, all things considered.

utb

What makes you think that though?
You never know what season is round the corner I feel. Sometimes the better seasons come as a surprise as do the worst. Sometimes you know we are in for a tough one. (Hecky PL season)

Sure the squad is going to be very different next season.
But given we looked like relegation fodder when he came back in and we got out of that and flirted with pushing for top 6.
What basis do we think we are more likely to be in the relegation battle as opposed to top 6 (or 8) or even mid table?
Last 6 games? Sure comfortably with the results relegation fodder. Previous 20, top 6.

And also regards signing more of his own players. We can talk about how January hasn't improved us as such. Although we desperately needed cover in both full back areas. But you can't argue with Bamford and Riedewald. Previous summer we also signed Cooper, Burrows, Campbell, McCallum, O'hare. Sure there were duds in there too but at least some of those have contributed good performances this and last season. Some such as Campbell and Burrows have not hit the heights of last season though.

The biggest damage for this current season was set in place last summer with our transfer business. I'm ignoring Selles' management and tactics/setup for a minute because that can and has been changed.

We have wasted a reasonable amount for a champ club on players that do not seem good enough at all for the level we are looking at. That can't be put on Wilder.

 

[Keen Blade]

Aw come on Any criticism has been about your claims that Snek has been in charge of some, if not all, footballing decisions. Claims you have no evidence for.

Good to see you’ve now included Wilder in your blame game after the latest back track. #235 for reference.

When you say "blame game" , all I'm trying to do is identify where the weaknesses are - which over , say , 5 years have left us in a worsening state -
to get an idea of how the thing can be turned around.
I'm not privy to actual internal workings at the Lane , but on the face of it , SB is on the board and is the CEO , so theoretically CW should be his subordinate.
But the relationship doesn't appear to work that way.
It didn't seem to matter so much when the Prince (who had at least some football nouse) was here , chatting to CW about players - but now that the owners are novices , I don't quite understand who might be able to be a sounding-board for any manager on , for example :
The wisdom of paying a fee and giving long contracts to such as :
Cannon who looks like he was never scouted ;
McGuinness & Ogbene on their downward trajectories.
The wisdom of taking on older players with very little recent successful first team football (Philips & Rothwell).
If the manager is not going to answer to the CEO for his failures in football matters (particularly the very damaging recruitment mistakes) then the remote & novice owners need to have some other means of control.
Otherwise how does the club arrest its slide ?

 

[Upton_Blade]

All you’re suggesting is replacing one person with responsibility and power with a person of no responsibility and power.
I don’t get it.

If the argument is that Wilder has too much of a fingerprint on the club and everything has to be done his way then how is that different to a DoF? And who is this DoF? And if the coach he hires is failing then is it the coach’s fault or the DoF’s fault?

You can be sure the DoF will be untouchable so, why opt for that? It will be just a cycle of hire and fire but accelerated like at Watford.
How does that bring stability?

It’s like it’s a trendy thing to state as an answer even though the club is nothing like structured for such a set up,

I just don’t get the clamour to be like Watford

Good grief change the bleeding record Ken.

Look we all get you don't think a DOF is needed and keep parroting the "Watford" line in virtually every DOF related post or thread.

For every Watford I could point you in the direction of a huge number of clubs where it has worked. In fact virtually every successful club in all the top leagues around Europe use said structure.

Based on your posts on the matter I genuinely at this point don't think you understand what a DOF actually does.

No one, and I mean no one, think s a DOF is some magical appointment that is going to change our fortunes on their own. Our entire off field structure needs modernising and a DOF would just be the 1st part of those changes and would lead the rest.

What's clear at our club is that there is virtually no true football experience above Wilder and that's the entire issue for me.

 

[luffenhamblade]

Sean Dyche?
He won’t come.
He will easily get a prem job.

Thank God for small mercies

 

[Upton_Blade]

It seems to me that there are a lot of unsuccessful DoFs and not many successful DoFs

And yet virtually every single side in all of Europe's top leagues has a DOF.

Strange really .

 

[luffenhamblade]

And yet virtually every single side in all of Europe's top leagues has a DOF.

Strange really .

Makes sense if it is done well, disaster if it is done badly. Wonder which camp we’d be in?

 

[Sean Thornton]

When you say "blame game" , all I'm trying to do is identify where the weaknesses are - which over , say , 5 years have left us in a worsening state -
to get an idea of how the thing can be turned around.
I'm not privy to actual internal workings at the Lane , but on the face of it , SB is on the board and is the CEO , so theoretically CW should be his subordinate.
But the relationship doesn't appear to work that way.
It didn't seem to matter so much when the Prince (who had at least some football nouse) was here , chatting to CW about players - but now that the owners are novices , I don't quite understand who might be able to be a sounding-board for any manager on , for example :
The wisdom of paying a fee and giving long contracts to such as :
Cannon who looks like he was never scouted ;
McGuinness & Ogbene on their downward trajectories.
The wisdom of taking on older players with very little recent successful first team football (Philips & Rothwell).
If the manager is not going to answer to the CEO for his failures in football matters (particularly the very damaging recruitment mistakes) then the remote & novice owners need to have some other means of control.
Otherwise how does the club arrest its slide ?

Your original suggestions were that Bettis was involved in all football matters because he was a director and CEO. Now you seem to have changed tack to it him not stopping Wilder from making decisions. That the club has become something of a pippy show at many levels recently is not denied. My point has always been there has been no evidence for your initial attempts to suggest it’s all the fault of one man. A position you are now moving away from.

 

[Broomhall Blade]

He’s not going anywhere, he’s got 1 season to show what he can do, after that it will be the end of the wilder era, we’ll have gone full circle in 10 years.

Well that's me saving £400 then.

 

[Kenilworth]

Good grief change the bleeding record Ken.

Look we all get you don't think a DOF is needed and keep parroting the "Watford" line in virtually every DOF related post or thread.

For every Watford I could point you in the direction of a huge number of clubs where it has worked. In fact virtually every successful club in all the top leagues around Europe use said structure.

Based on your posts on the matter I genuinely at this point don't think you understand what a DOF actually does.

No one, and I mean no one, think s a DOF is some magical appointment that is going to change our fortunes on their own. Our entire off field structure needs modernising and a DOF would just be the 1st part of those changes and would lead the rest.

What's clear at our club is that there is virtually no true football experience above Wilder and that's the entire issue for me.

So, you’re telling me I’m consistent?

Let me know which clubs are successful with one, though, won’t you? Bit let me know which clubs are using one that haven’t spent millions on their infrastructure,

 

[Keen Blade]

Your original suggestions were that Bettis was involved in all football matters because he was a director and CEO. Now you seem to have changed tack to it him not stopping Wilder from making decisions. That the club has become something of a pippy show at many levels recently is not denied. My point has always been there has been no evidence for your initial attempts to suggest it’s all the fault of one man. A position you are now moving away from.

Fair enough.

 

[Scoips]

Bettis’ job is to do the deals though, not identify good footballers. Seems some people just like moaning about him.

If Bettis' job is to do the deals, then who is doing the CEO's job? Any organisation which employs hundreds of people needs someone at the top of the managerial pyramid to drive the organisation forward, ensure it has a coherent strategy, focus on maximising commercial income, managing both upwards (shareholders) and down to the heads of departments, growing the customer/supporter base, improving processes for things like ticketing etc. I'm not sure Bettis is the man for that job, in fact I'm not sure he thinks he is given his 'the whole thing is a shit show but don't blame me I'm only an accountant' interview. I can't think of any part of SUFC as an organisation that I could point to and say it is well run, apart from aspects of the academy. Its the CEO's job to fix that - if any other commercial organisation was as poorly run as SUFC, then the CEO would not get a free pass.

 

[Houston_Blade]

If Bettis' job is to do the deals, then who is doing the CEO's job? Any organisation which employs hundreds of people needs someone at the top of the managerial pyramid to drive the organisation forward, ensure it has a coherent strategy, focus on maximising commercial income, managing both upwards (shareholders) and down to the heads of departments, growing the customer/supporter base, improving processes for things like ticketing etc. I'm not sure Bettis is the man for that job, in fact I'm not sure he thinks he is given his 'the whole thing is a shit show but don't blame me I'm only an accountant' interview. I can't think of any part of SUFC as an organisation that I could point to and say it is well run, apart from aspects of the academy. Its the CEO's job to fix that - if any other commercial organisation was as poorly run as SUFC, then the CEO would not get a free pass.

I was referring to his role in connection with transfers, as that’s what the previous poster was talking about.

He does a CEO job, completing transfer deals is part of this. I don’t think all he does is work on completing transfer deals.

I do agree that the club gives off a massive air of ‘tinpot’ in a lot of aspects, Bettis is partly responsible for this. What we don’t know is what constraints he’s working under. Hecky and Wilder have both praised Bettis on how he runs the show given some of the crap going on above him. This might be mates looking after mates, but I suspect there’s some truth to it. Of his time with us, he’s had Chairmen falling out above him and suing each other, then spurious bids by dodgy people, now COH and their ‘AI’ nonsense to deal with.

He may have some shortcomings, but on the whole I think he’s doing a fairly decent job under poor conditions.

I did mention on another thread though that it might be one of the roles we look to replace if we are to move forward as a club, fresh ideas at CEO level might be a positive, but we also might see things go the other way, if he is the one holding the whole shitshow together.

 

[Blademan89]

How long would you give him if we look like we'll be involved in another potential relegation battle after he brings in more of his own players?

Not being funny towards you, mate but I'm more inclined to think we might be closer to the bottom than the top next season, all things considered.

utb

Update on my thoughts on this as yesterday was hectic for me...

Reasons for my original post is that from now until start of the next season isnt all that long in reality & to get a structure in place and the right people behind it will take its time & then to recruit the right manager... its all too much in a short space of time, it will end up being a disaster trying to chsnge that much all in one go (similar to start of this season with selles etc).

We have a full season to build It if we gove wilder this following season and have a better chance of getting it right.

I fully believe we wont be sny where near relegation zone come end of next season with wilder in charge and bring in players he wants next season and squad turn over. Hes more than capable in chamionship (as i mentioned in my reply).

 

[jt64]

These American owners need to get to grips with the culture of this club. You don't change culture overnight.
To change culture you need loads of money.
Just think Bassett, Warnock and Wilder
They got it

I would love to know what you are meaning by "culture" and why it needs loads of money to change it.

 

[KMC-1889]

What is a long term appointment?

If we think that United will give anyone 5 years to build in the Championship then we’re suffering the same delusion as Wednesday fans.

In the long term we’re all dead. Gone are the days of Guy Roux managing Auxerre for 30+ years.

this is why a DOF/Technical board are so important these days. When player costs are being amortised across 3 or 4 years it’s not feasible to have manager changes every 18 months that want to clear out the squad and start again. The club loses so much cash.

The idea is to have sensible football people building a squad and to recruit managers that fit the profile of players already at the club

 

[Yoonitedite]

Yeh yeh, another Wilder sacking thread

However, not seen one with potential solutions, so this is my opinion for what it’s worth.

I am of the growing opinion that Wilder should be sacked imminently, or, we should be actively talking to managerial candidates now with the view to bringing them in as soon as the season finishes.

This begs the question…who?

I’m of the opinion we should aim high but aim European. This smacks of Jokanovic thinking but I want a Northern European manager - because I think - and it might be a stereotype - they are less emotional than their southern European counterparts and offer something more structured and strategic. That’s just my take.

I’d like to put forward:

KJETIL KNUTSEN (Norwegian)

He’s manager of Norwegian side Bodo Glimt - I know, that’s probably a major step higher than Champ football as they’re in the champs league and for their size, do pretty well in it. But that is all down to him.

He’s never managed outside of Norway so I think this restricts any of the so called top 6 clubs in the major leagues tapping him up so I’d definitely say he’s a mid-lower Prem / top-end Champ manager.

However, why would he come here? Fuck knows. He’s doing fine where he is and he’s in the champs league. But, if I were our owners I’d be preparing a major offer, more than we’ve ever done on a manager before and breaking our ceiling to get him in. Sell him a project with the aim of being an established mid table premier league club in 5years (where’ve we heard that before?). He could see us as a stepping stone - if successful - to a much bigger club.

I’m writing this and thinking I sound a little bit delusional so no doubt you are too as the reader. It’s only one example of the type of manager I think we need, I’m sure there are others, but I really like the guy and his style of play and would deffo suit us as a club and fan base but with the added bonus of him actually knowing about how football tactics work.

Shoot me down.

He could invite Sander back and play him in his most effective position mebbe

 

[Oreyt]

Gerrim gone. Gerrumall gone.

 

[Upton_Blade]

So, you’re telling me I’m consistent?

Extremely .

Let me know which clubs are successful with one, though, won’t you? Bit let me know which clubs are using one that haven’t spent millions on their infrastructure,

I reckon we're, surprisingly, in agreement here re the amount needed on the infrastructure but not on the amount of clubs that it's been successful at as pretty much the entire PL, and every other top league in Europe, use that structure so you could class them all as successful in varying degrees.

 

[JasonEllis]

So, you’re telling me I’m consistent?

Let me know which clubs are successful with one, though, won’t you? Bit let me know which clubs are using one that haven’t spent millions on their infrastructure,

Lincoln City?