Have players become drones?

[Tony_Kaufman]

Something I've often questioned is if some modern footballers are over coached to the point where all their decisions are made for them and they can't use instinct unless the manager gives them free reign to do so?

Quite often you see players try the same pass over and over despite it having not worked all match and opponents countering it easily. Often this happens when there is a better and more obvious pass to make. But despite it not working they keep doing it. They then get subbed and their replacement does the exact same thing. Then in another match against different opponents it works. Oli Norwood is a prime example of this last season. Do they just do what they're told to do all the time despite knowing that it won't work because they've been coached to do this all the time?

I've always felt that youngsters are more of a threat when they first burst onto the scene as they haven't been over coached yet, so when they get a chance to play they often do what instinctively comes to them. In some cases they end up being brilliant, hence Harry Maguire, Kyle Naughton, David Brooks and Iliman Ndiaye having such huge impacts when they first made it into the starting line up.

Should teams nurture players and adapt formations and tactics to encourage players to play instinctively rather than setting out a formations and tactics where players must do x, y and z all match, instead of taking this away from them and turning them into programmed drones?

 

[Sheffsteel]

Something I've often questioned is if some modern footballers are over coached to the point where all their decisions are made for them and they can't use instinct unless the manager gives them free reign to do so?

Quite often you see players try the same pass over and over despite it having not worked all match and opponents countering it easily. Often this happens when there is a better and more obvious pass to make. But despite it not working they keep doing it. They then get subbed and their replacement does the exact same thing. Then in another match against different opponents it works. Oli Norwood is a prime example of this last season. Do they just do what they're told to do all the time despite knowing that it won't work because they've been coached to do this all the time?

I've always felt that youngsters are more of a threat when they first burst onto the scene as they haven't been over coached yet, so when they get a chance to play they often do what instinctively comes to them. In some cases they end up being brilliant, hence Harry Maguire, Kyle Naughton, David Brooks and Iliman Ndiaye having such huge impacts when they first made it into the starting line up.

Should teams nurture players and adapt formations and tactics to encourage players to play instinctively rather than setting out a formations and tactics where players must do x, y and z all match, instead of taking this away from them and turning them into programmed drones?

I think the issue these days is every club has massive amounts of performance data and a team of analysts that theres a risk of being over coached.
So it’s become more and more common to treat players like drones, they are given instructions and not allowed to think.

I have family who used to work very high up the chain at Chelsea FC, he worked with the players and various managers daily. He told me that Frank Lampards was a bit of a perfectionist, his style was giving very tactical instructions to each individual player. He’d even tell them where they should run.
Some could take in the instructions, others couldn’t, assume there was some confusion during matches because results we’re generally poor.

When Thomas Tuttle replaced Lampard, in his first meeting with the players he told them as it was mid season he didn’t want to change things too much
so he’ll only be focussing on tactical issues/ formations regards tightening up the defence. He told the midfielders and strikers they were top internationals so could use their initiative and have some freedom to work things out on the pitch. The Chelsea results improved almost immediately.

Lampard was conscientious but a quite intense more serious manager whereas Tuttle was personable, more laid back making training fun.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Thomas Tuttle

Did he ring Dave for tips before each game?

 

[Sheffsteel]

Did he ring Dave for tips before each game?

I’m blaming the autocorrect on this keyboard….of course it’s Tuchel.

 

[KoppedOff]

This is a great point and something I’ve been wondering about for a while. Where are the mavericks? Wheres the fun? Where are the characters? Its all so regimented and fucking dull.

Football- or at least the Premier League equivalent of it- just seems like if Black Mirror did an episode where the entire league was being played out on FIFA by spotty teenagers on PS5s.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Where are the mavericks?

Warming Marseilles bench!

 

[From the pig end]

McAtee should be our Maverick.
But all I hear is how he needs to track back, work off the ball, concentrate on defending.
I get that we need to be a team and that we need to work harder than the other teams just to compete, but we are killing the bit of ability we do have in the team by making them all workhorses.

 

[Nick Jansky]

McAtee should be our Maverick.
But all I hear is how he needs to track back, work off the ball, concentrate on defending.
I get that we need to be a team and that we need to work harder than the other teams just to compete, but we are killing the bit of ability we do have in the team by making them all workhorses.

Have a look at the Man City & Liverpool teams & point out the players who don’t track back, work hard off the ball & assist their world class defenders. Their “maverick” players are all capable of doing that side of the game as well which is why they are at the clubs they are at. No team has room for a passenger who might snatch the occasional goal out of nothing.

 

[Sheffsteel]

McAtee should be our Maverick.
But all I hear is how he needs to track back, work off the ball, concentrate on defending.
I get that we need to be a team and that we need to work harder than the other teams just to compete, but we are killing the bit of ability we do have in the team by making them all workhorses.

Good point
However it seems these days managers put as much importance in what a player does without the ball, as much as what they do with the ball.

It's quite unbelievable to see how the role of a centre forward or even creative midfielder/ winger has changed..
A common tactic used by most managers is to quickly rush the defenders, closing him down, forcing them to boot it upfield. Old Keith Edwards (brilliant finisher but very lazy) would be having cold sweats at the thought of all that work off the ball, closing down tackling defenders.

To be fair to managers it's a tactic that proven to work really well. Only the other week Newcastle used it brilliantly at home to PSG.
The Paris defenders are obviously used to keeping possession and calmly playing the ball out of defence into midfield.
The Newcastle midfield and forward line worked brilliantly as a team closing down every single PSG defender creating traps.
Many of the Newcastle goals were due to them winning back possession very close to the PSG penalty area.
The only problem with the closing down tactic is EVERYONE needs to be 100% committed to working off the ball.
If just one players doesn't do it or becomes tired then this tactic not only becomes ineffective but also waste the energy of the rest of your players.

Hence why some of the flair players, with loads of talent and skill but little disciple and workrate, lets says someone like Anthony at Man Utd
tend not to be in starting line-ups, the fashion is that the maverick type of players tend to be only used as sub.

 

[Need4speed]

A great point made here and in my opinion spot on. Look at some of the manager antics on the touch line. At times it seems they are telling the players what to do.

 

[From the pig end]

Good point
However it seems these days managers put as much importance in what a player does without the ball, as much as what they do with the ball.

It's quite unbelievable to see how the role of a centre forward or even creative midfielder/ winger has changed..
A common tactic used by most managers is to quickly rush the defenders, closing him down, forcing them to boot it upfield. Old Keith Edwards (brilliant finisher but very lazy) would be having cold sweats at the thought of all that work off the ball, closing down tackling defenders.

To be fair to managers it's a tactic that proven to work really well. Only the other week Newcastle used it brilliantly at home to PSG.
The Paris defenders are obviously used to keeping possession and calmly playing the ball out of defence into midfield.
The Newcastle midfield and forward line worked brilliantly as a team closing down every single PSG defender creating traps.
Many of the Newcastle goals were due to them winning back possession very close to the PSG penalty area.
The only problem with the closing down tactic is EVERYONE needs to be 100% committed to working off the ball.
If just one players doesn't do it or becomes tired then this tactic not only becomes ineffective but also waste the energy of the rest of your players.

Hence why some of the flair players, with loads of talent and skill but little disciple and workrate, lets says someone like Anthony at Man Utd
tend not to be in starting line-ups, the fashion is that the maverick type of players tend to be only used as sub.

I agree.
It's always better to have an Ndiaye. The man was a special type of maverick, he could rip up the play book, do something out of the ordinary, and win us the game with a piece of magic. But, the guy worked harder than anyone on the pitch, pressed, pushed and never gave up on a lost cause.
There's still specialists though, Haaland only touches the ball 5 times a game and still manages hattricks.
Foden gets a lot of free rein like Saka etc. You can track men, and win the ball without it completely crushing your flair and ending all your creativity and confidence.

 

[Gin&Juice]

roger roger

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Good point
However it seems these days managers put as much importance in what a player does without the ball, as much as what they do with the ball.

It's quite unbelievable to see how the role of a centre forward or even creative midfielder/ winger has changed..
A common tactic used by most managers is to quickly rush the defenders, closing him down, forcing them to boot it upfield. Old Keith Edwards (brilliant finisher but very lazy) would be having cold sweats at the thought of all that work off the ball, closing down tackling defenders.

To be fair to managers it's a tactic that proven to work really well. Only the other week Newcastle used it brilliantly at home to PSG.
The Paris defenders are obviously used to keeping possession and calmly playing the ball out of defence into midfield.
The Newcastle midfield and forward line worked brilliantly as a team closing down every single PSG defender creating traps.
Many of the Newcastle goals were due to them winning back possession very close to the PSG penalty area.
The only problem with the closing down tactic is EVERYONE needs to be 100% committed to working off the ball.
If just one players doesn't do it or becomes tired then this tactic not only becomes ineffective but also waste the energy of the rest of your players.

Hence why some of the flair players, with loads of talent and skill but little disciple and workrate, lets says someone like Anthony at Man Utd
tend not to be in starting line-ups, the fashion is that the maverick type of players tend to be only used as sub.

I agree with you entirely about players having to do both parts.

Over the years our best midfielders have been the ones who were good both on and off the ball. Stuart McCall, Michael Brown, Gary Speed, Stephen Quinn, Alan Quinn (not the best player but could tackle and pass), Paul Coutts, David Brooks, John Fleck (when he was good), John Lundstram (when he was good), Iliman Ndiaye, Tommy Doyle.

We had others who were good at one thing but not the other, Michael Tonge, Nick Montgomery, Oli Norwood, Brian Howard etc. We've also had plenty who didn't really excel at either but showed occasional glimpses of both e.g. Sander Berge.

At the moment Norwood has been getting away with not tracking back and defending, which is currently putting pressure on Souza, who is effectively having to make and deal with two midfielders. Maybe that's not Norwood's fault but Hecky's tactics.

 

[brownblade]

Good point
However it seems these days managers put as much importance in what a player does without the ball, as much as what they do with the ball.

It's quite unbelievable to see how the role of a centre forward or even creative midfielder/ winger has changed..
A common tactic used by most managers is to quickly rush the defenders, closing him down, forcing them to boot it upfield. Old Keith Edwards (brilliant finisher but very lazy) would be having cold sweats at the thought of all that work off the ball, closing down tackling defenders.

To be fair to managers it's a tactic that proven to work really well. Only the other week Newcastle used it brilliantly at home to PSG.
The Paris defenders are obviously used to keeping possession and calmly playing the ball out of defence into midfield.
The Newcastle midfield and forward line worked brilliantly as a team closing down every single PSG defender creating traps.
Many of the Newcastle goals were due to them winning back possession very close to the PSG penalty area.
The only problem with the closing down tactic is EVERYONE needs to be 100% committed to working off the ball.
If just one players doesn't do it or becomes tired then this tactic not only becomes ineffective but also waste the energy of the rest of your players.

Hence why some of the flair players, with loads of talent and skill but little disciple and workrate, lets says someone like Anthony at Man Utd
tend not to be in starting line-ups, the fashion is that the maverick type of players tend to be only used as sub.

Oh my god, I'd never noticed we could underline things. Game changing.

 

[BladeByChoice]

This is a great point and something I’ve been wondering about for a while. Where are the mavericks? Wheres the fun? Where are the characters? Its all so regimented and fucking dull.

Football- or at least the Premier League equivalent of it- just seems like if Black Mirror did an episode where the entire league was being played out on FIFA by spotty teenagers on PS5s.

Absolutely spot on, I would go further than this and say we need characters off the pitch as well as on.

Football needs George Best and Paul Gascoigne types in the same way that acting needs an Oliver Reed.

Where are the bell ends, where are the players mentioned on the front page for the wrong reasons, nothing since Rooney, the EPL won’t allow anything to tarnish its product.

 

[brownblade]

Warming Marseilles bench!

Seems to play regularly for them.

 

[tyke1889]

Oh my god, I'd never noticed we could underline things. Game changing.

We can do BOLD and italic and make it Bigger or smaller too

 

[brownblade]

We can do BOLD and italic and make it Bigger or smaller too

We can do BOLD and italic and make it Bigger or smaller too

I'd sometimes use bold or italics.
I'll never be off the forum now.
What a memorable season this is.

 

[Hockey'sBeard]

I agree.
It's always better to have an Ndiaye. The man was a special type of maverick, he could rip up the play book, do something out of the ordinary, and win us the game with a piece of magic. But, the guy worked harder than anyone on the pitch, pressed, pushed and never gave up on a lost cause.
There's still specialists though, Haaland only touches the ball 5 times a game and still manages hattricks.
Foden gets a lot of free rein like Saka etc. You can track men, and win the ball without it completely crushing your flair and ending all your creativity and confidence.

And with Ndiaye opposition defenders get anxious of making mistakes and back off knowing he could do magic