Great read from a QPR message board.

[BushBlade]

Dale might well be a scoundrel, but Bury were hours away from meltdown when he took over. Without him the club would have died at the start of the year.

True but that’s like finding a dying hit and run victim by the side of the road and instead of calling an ambulance and trying to resuscitate them, nicking their wallet and finishing them off with a shovel.

 

[TJB.]

So when do we see a rebel fans league kicking off. Owned and run completely by clubs and their supporters.

I've posed the question before. Like the different organisations in Boxing (or Wrestling, to use a more shit example), are there any rules in place which prevent clubs from exiting the current pyramid and forming a breakaway league of their own? One which was perhaps more fan-focused, with an emphasis on club sustainability through the likes of wage caps and fully transparent publishing of accounts?

Not that it'd necessarily be a good or bad idea, I've just always wondered if it was possible. Is there any legislation in place which means clubs absolutely have to be a part of the established pyramid, or could they technically organise with others and 'do their own thing', as it were?

 

[Le Cynique]

They signed Ravenelli and Juninho in the premier league. In the last decade they've made a profit on transfers.

They've played well within the rules, don't see your point here.

According to this article "For a brief time, the millions Gibson pumped into Boro enabled the club to out-spend just about every club at home and abroad."

So, he was OK with an unfair advantage when it worked in his and his shitty club's favour, but now they want to go more sustainable they complain about other clubs spending more money than they should? Like it or not, he's part of the reason why football is where it's at nowadays, so forgive me if I don't think that his railing against clubs like Derby who are playing within the rules but making them work to their advantage is particularly appropriate. Gibson may have played within the rules, but so have Derby and Leeds, so what's good for one team is presumably good for another.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

According to this article "For a brief time, the millions Gibson pumped into Boro enabled the club to out-spend just about every club at home and abroad."

So, he was OK with an unfair advantage when it worked in his and his shitty club's favour, but now they want to go more sustainable they complain about other clubs spending more money than they should? Like it or not, he's part of the reason why football is where it's at nowadays, so forgive me if I don't think that his railing against clubs like Derby who are playing within the rules but making them work to their advantage is particularly appropriate. Gibson may have played within the rules, but so have Derby and Leeds, so what's good for one team is presumably good for another.

He did pump millions and millions in, this was before financial fair play. Are you saying that, as a fan of the club he shouldn't be allowed to invest heavily in order for them to succeed? Particularly when it was well within the rules?

He isn't a hypocrite by any stretch of the imagination, he's arguably one of the best chairman around. He spent big when he was allowed to, adhering to the rules, then he reigned that in when the FFP rules came out and built a sustainable model.

His issue is that clubs are ignoring these FFP rules and bending them to suit, therefore the clubs that are strictly following the rules are actually being punished, rather than those that are cheekily avoiding them.

 

[BushBlade]

I've posed the question before. Like the different organisations in Boxing (or Wrestling, to use a more shit example), are there any rules in place which prevent clubs from exiting the current pyramid and forming a breakaway league of their own? One which was perhaps more fan-focused, with an emphasis on club sustainability through the likes of wage caps and fully transparent publishing of accounts?

Not that it'd necessarily be a good or bad idea, I've just always wondered if it was possible. Is there any legislation in place which means clubs absolutely have to be a part of the established pyramid, or could they technically organise with others and 'do their own thing', as it were?

Why would clubs break from the EFL and form another league when they already run the EFL?

 

[TJB.]

Why would clubs break from the EFL and form another league when they already run the EFL?

That would be for them to decide. I'm merely asking if it would be possible.

 

[Le Cynique]

He did pump millions and millions in, this was before financial fair play. Are you saying that, as a fan of the club he shouldn't be allowed to invest heavily in order for them to succeed? Particularly when it was well within the rules?

He isn't a hypocrite by any stretch of the imagination, he's arguably one of the best chairman around. He spent big when he was allowed to, adhering to the rules, then he reigned that in when the FFP rules came out and built a sustainable model.

His issue is that clubs are ignoring these FFP rules and bending them to suit, therefore the clubs that are strictly following the rules are actually being punished, rather than those that are cheekily avoiding them.

Sorry, but you're talking rubbish.

Yes, he adhered to the rules. That's exactly what Derby are doing. He gave Boro an advantage by piling in money, allowing them to sign players that a club of their stature would never usually have. Mel Morris has given Derby an advantage by buying their stadium and renting it back to them. Both of these situations are within the rules as they stand, but apparently one is acceptable and one isn't.

Whichever way you try to dress it up, he's talking out of his arse. Why is one advantage more allowable than another if they're both within the rules?

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

Sorry, but you're talking rubbish.

Yes, he adhered to the rules. That's exactly what Derby are doing. He gave Boro an advantage by piling in money, allowing them to sign players that a club of their stature would never usually have. Mel Morris has given Derby an advantage by buying their stadium and renting it back to them. Both of these situations are within the rules as they stand, but apparently one is acceptable and one isn't.

Whichever way you try to dress it up, he's talking out of his arse. Why is one advantage more allowable than another if they're both within the rules?

Since when are factual statements 'rubbish'?

He pumped money in when there were NO RULES as to what a chairman could spend. There's no back doors involved, no cheeky accounting, no rule bending. Once rules were in place, he changed strategy completely in order to adhere to them. As I said, in 10 YEARS, he has drawn a profit.

How you can compare that behaviour with what Chansiri and Morris have done is, quite frankly ridiculous.

Yet I'm the one talking rubbish?

 

[TintwistleS2]

Look at Ipswich years ago when a club goes up everyone wants to use that model of going up
At s6 everyone wanted Rhodes got him didn't work out
Many teams have a bad patch but keep the team best u can and c what happens next season unless u go down then it's ripped apart

 

[Yoonited]

You could have just posted a link...

There's always some negative smart arse comes along stating the bleedin obvious. Bit like sitting in certain areas at Bramall Lane and you think, yeah ,thanks for that pal. Keep it to yourself next time as it's added nothing constructive to the game/thread.

WTF does it matter that it wasn't posted as a link?

A brilliantly insightful and relevant piece,clearly well researched and eloquently delivered but oh no don't praise it.

Do you shit on the coffee table just after it's been polished? Deary me UTB

And thanks Hugh, as you said, great read.

 

[Le Cynique]

Since when are factual statements 'rubbish'?

He pumped money in when there were NO RULES as to what a chairman could spend. There's no back doors involved, no cheeky accounting, no rule bending. Once rules were in place, he changed strategy completely in order to adhere to them. As I said, in 10 YEARS, he has drawn a profit.

How you can compare that behaviour with what Chansiri and Morris have done is, quite frankly ridiculous.

Yet I'm the one talking rubbish?

Because you're saying that what Gibson did was fine because it was within the rules, but that what Morris has done is not (Chansiri is a different kettle of fish, and the pigs have been punished for breaking FFP) despite it also being within the rules. As the article stated in the OP, Shaun Harvey actively encouraged the sale of the stadiums to contribute towards income. If that's not an endorsement of the situation being above board, I don't know what is.

You might think that it's dishonest or somehow underhand, and that's your prerogative, but it's no more cheating than Gibson paying more money than a club like Boro could realistically afford to big-name players was. Boro are lucky that Gibson didn't get bored or ill or die, as they could easily be in the same situation as Bolton.

I don't think we're going to agree here though, so shall we call it quits?

 

[Yoonited]

A terrific read and spot on. Football is a place for failed despots to asset strip another business and its supporters, not forgetting the impact on the local community - the only other place you would see this despotic behaviour of chasing the “gravy train” is ... the houses of parliament.

You're right Espania, we ought to be asking the Prince what his motives were for getting involved with little old Sheffield United. Wear all the scarves you like but still doesn't make you a Blade.

 

[BushBlade]

You're right Espania, we ought to be asking the Prince what his motives were for getting involved with little old Sheffield United. Wear all the scarves you like but still doesn't make you a Blade.

Make money. He said that when he got involved. I laughed. I’m not laughing now. Oh, hang on, we’re in the PL, I am laughing.

 

[Yoonited]

Make money. He said that when he got involved. I laughed. I’m not laughing now. Oh, hang on, we’re in the PL, I am laughing.

It's far from over yet perhaps. He may well have more integrity than Dale, Anderson et al but still makes me wonder.

I know Chris has been well supported financially, hence our new found premier status, and I am delighted we have left some very dark days behind, Perhaps those days are gone for good.

Corruption is rife and the EFL also have alot to answer for.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

Because you're saying that what Gibson did was fine because it was within the rules, but that what Morris has done is not (Chansiri is a different kettle of fish, and the pigs have been punished for breaking FFP) despite it also being within the rules. As the article stated in the OP, Shaun Harvey actively encouraged the sale of the stadiums to contribute towards income. If that's not an endorsement of the situation being above board, I don't know what is.

You might think that it's dishonest or somehow underhand, and that's your prerogative, but it's no more cheating than Gibson paying more money than a club like Boro could realistically afford to big-name players was. Boro are lucky that Gibson didn't get bored or ill or die, as they could easily be in the same situation as Bolton.

I don't think we're going to agree here though, so shall we call it quits?

Probably for the best

 

[RammyBlade]

A very good reflection of the state of football below the premier league and how the ruling body has become a self serving incompetent conglomerate.
I live near Bury and have attended the odd match when not attending Blades matches so I feel their pain and think THANK GOD ITS NOT US !

 

[bypassblade]

Wow that is written from the heart bang on and right, how many more clubs have to die just think jugs ears Lineker's wages at BBC would have helped Bury no end.

 

[tincan]

The German "50+1 model" where clubs are not for profit organisations and so in law belong to the fans, meaning any commercial investors are not allowed to have more than a 49 percent stake in a club. https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/...ules-50-1-fifty-plus-one-explained-466583.jsp
If the EFL had it the Dale/ Anderson scenarios cannot milk the club as the club members can vote them down. If united were to do that it would probably mean all season ticket holders would become members and vote on the decisions of McCabe/ Prince. A democratic football club that see's its supporters as fans not customers, all the SKY robber barons would soon disappear.

 

[HoodedClaw]

I'm not sure that Steve Dale would fail the FPP test.

Can't find any criminal convictions, not barred from being a director, not been involved in 2 separate clubs going into Admin or one club going into admin twice, no sports bans, no betting bans etc etc etc. Can't find anything in the rules / guidelines about Proof of Funds.

Strange they waved through Owen Oysten though to own Blackpool, even though he was a convicted rapist and served 3+ years though.

On an interesting note, to me anyway, I think Shaun Harvey would've failed the test though (assuming it was administered correctly of course). CEO of Leeds when they went into Admin and was MD of Bradford when they went in to Admin.

So the man the helped make the rules, would, potentially, fail the test...

Things maybe becoming clearer how Derby and the pigs could sell their ground to help against FFP, Birmingham could buy players (Kristian Pedersen) whilst under embargo etc etc

Every cloud has a silver lining though and it was nice to see he was effectively forced out of his £400K+ year job, due to more and more incompetance. Caraboa Cup draws in the far east, EFL trophy with prem u23's allowed in, poor negotiation of the Sky TV deal to highlight a few things.

But don't fear for poor Shaun though, he's managed to land on his feet by becoming CEO of the Premier League.

Football... stranger in life than fiction.

 

[YES Blade]

Is it only me that's not that arsed?

If this was us I'd just see it as another chapter in a lifelong shitfest. We dont support the Blades for glory, thank fuck.
We'd rise again. They will. Whats done is done.

I'm with you on this, if the fans are desperate enough for a club to be in Bury then it will happen. If a new club doesn't rise back to League One/Two then it's down to the fans and clearly there isn't enough football interest in Bury. If Wimbledon can do it, anyone can do it!

People only give a shit because Bury have been expelled and the "it could've been your club" scare stories. If they had stayed afloat financially, but dropped through the Leagues due to poor on the pitch performance, similar to say Chesterfield, Notts County and Stockport then no one would really care.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

I'm with you on this, if the fans are desperate enough for a club to be in Bury then it will happen. If a new club doesn't rise back to League One/Two then it's down to the fans and clearly there isn't enough football interest in Bury. If Wimbledon can do it, anyone can do it!

People only give a shit because Bury have been expelled and the "it could've been your club" scare stories. If they had stayed afloat financially, but dropped through the Leagues due to poor on the pitch performance, similar to say Chesterfield, Notts County and Stockport then no one would really care.

There's a bit of a difference between being kicked out of the football league and being relegated beyond existence.

I presume if it did happen to us, you wouldn't care because we'd start off in the unibond (or whatever it's called now) and build our way up? Despite losing our ground and training facilities as that wouldn't be sustainable to a club at that level and any history we had.

You only don't care, because it's a club you don't care about.

 

[diplomat]

I'm not sure that Steve Dale would fail the FPP test.

Can't find any criminal convictions, not barred from being a director, not been involved in 2 separate clubs going into Admin or one club going into admin twice, no sports bans, no betting bans etc etc etc. Can't find anything in the rules / guidelines about Proof of Funds.

Strange they waved through Owen Oysten though to own Blackpool, even though he was a convicted rapist and served 3+ years though.

On an interesting note, to me anyway, I think Shaun Harvey would've failed the test though (assuming it was administered correctly of course). CEO of Leeds when they went into Admin and was MD of Bradford when they went in to Admin.

So the man the helped make the rules, would, potentially, fail the test...

Things maybe becoming clearer how Derby and the pigs could sell their ground to help against FFP, Birmingham could buy players (Kristian Pedersen) whilst under embargo etc etc

Every cloud has a silver lining though and it was nice to see he was effectively forced out of his £400K+ year job, due to more and more incompetance. Caraboa Cup draws in the far east, EFL trophy with prem u23's allowed in, poor negotiation of the Sky TV deal to highlight a few things.

But don't fear for poor Shaun though, he's managed to land on his feet by becoming CEO of the Premier League.

Football... stranger in life than fiction.

How does that even happen, seriously flawed individual proves incompetence and gets better job. I’d love to see a video of his job interviews.

 

[diplomat]

Really good article that touches on several issues I share with football. It’s becoming harder and harder to compete. Everything is shared between the top five or six teams in terms of silverware. If an underdog gets to a final they often take a kicking like Watford and Stoke did. To be fair to United we have tried to buck this trend but realistically we were unlikely to get past a semi. I love watching united but in my youth everything felt a bit more competitive. Like anything could happen.

The bit about the academies is spot on. I remember reading about the premier league black mail at the time. Basically the rest of the league had to sign up to the potential poaching of their youth for a pittance or risk losing less of the trickle down of the TV money. It was a scandal that the media did so little to report this. It’s a risk to the future of the game. . . It’s funny in a way because from a business sense I would advocate setting up a network to poach all academies beneath premier league now we are in it and investing in that area. However, that would make us wankers and I wouldn’t want us to.

 

[BushBlade]

How does that even happen, seriously flawed individual proves incompetence and gets better job. I’d love to see a video of his job interviews.

It happens all the time at the top level. ‘Incompetence’ isn’t necessarily measurable. No one really gets to the top by being incompetent. The reality is that many jobs at top level are close to impossible to do without making mistakes. There aren’t that many people who are capable and willing to do such demanding jobs. They’re 70+ hours a week with constant stress. And if you get 95% of it right, that’s about 50% more than most people could do.

The PL were really struggling to find someone. Their first choice accepted and then changed her mind. It appears to be one of those jobs that the only people capable of doing it well know enough about what that would entail to give it a wide berth.

 

[raul]

Is it only me that's not that arsed?

If this was us I'd just see it as another chapter in a lifelong shitfest. We dont support the Blades for glory, thank fuck.
We'd rise again. They will. Whats done is done.

You and Wheelchair Dave

 

[BushBlade]

Really good article that touches on several issues I share with football. It’s becoming harder and harder to compete. Everything is shared between the top five or six teams in terms of silverware. If an underdog gets to a final they often take a kicking like Watford and Stoke did. To be fair to United we have tried to buck this trend but realistically we were unlikely to get past a semi. I love watching united but in my youth everything felt a bit more competitive. Like anything could happen.

The bit about the academies is spot on. I remember reading about the premier league black mail at the time. Basically the rest of the league had to sign up to the potential poaching of their youth for a pittance or risk losing less of the trickle down of the TV money. It was a scandal that the media did so little to report this. It’s a risk to the future of the game. . . It’s funny in a way because from a business sense I would advocate setting up a network to poach all academies beneath premier league now we are in it and investing in that area. However, that would make us wankers and I wouldn’t want us to.

It’s scandalous what the PL have done regarding academies.

 

[super_pig]

the fact that Sky were one minute prattling on about Bury and in an instant switched to Alexis Sanchez half a million a week at the Rags boiled my piss

 

[super_pig]

The sorry tale of football in England/ Wales since the Premier League was established.

The damage that Scudamore has done to the game.

We have some great threads on this very subject. In some of them I wrote about us being on the 'wrong side of the tracks of the gravy train'.

We are on the right side now and it all looks different over there.

We have to make it count and establish our place in the vulgar, horrible, anti-football/sport, the business 'club' called the Premier League.

It's sad and obscene what has happened to Bury F.C. and it could have been us if it had not been for our owners and their perseverance. Yes 'owners' in the plural.

We live in a capitalist society and the P.L. is the 'playing field' for the business, sorry the 'sport' we love, but used to love more.

What's happened to Bury is dagger in the heart of the working class in that town.

Football first, Boris and Trump next, bloody great machetes on their way. 'Business rules' and common decency and community are all done for the working class.

you were doing well until the last sentence

 

[Woodwardfan]

you were doing well until the last sentence

I know

 

[Greenblades]

Great article indeed and one we can all associate with to a small degree.

McDonald , Woolhouse , Sam / Samantha we have had our fair share and should be grateful to McCabe in comparison. For those who remember the no side of the ground fiasco we must have been close to a Bury. Until the very top sort out the REAL reason people want to buy a club the commerciality and greed will just continue to spiral. I hope Bury and their fans can rise again And we should where possible look to support them.