Getting it wrong with Wilson, Weir and Clough could save Adkins

[Hamburg Blade]

When we get to the point of feeling sympathy for Cloughie, and Danny Wilson, we should remember the quality of football we were forced to endure under these two was dreadful. We have to be honest, we could see Wilson was due to miss the cut for top two, and Cloughie from memory looked close to missing out on a play off spot at one point and we the fans were restless as usual.
True, hindsight would be a wonderful aid in football, but we are not blessed with such, but if we were would you really take either of these managers back?

I can't agree with the general point here. Claiming hindsight is to re-write how it was - there was general belief that Clough should at least have been given another half-season, that immediately after not getting promotion shows a high degree of acceptance of him as our manager - nothing to do with sympathy. Wilson too, slightly different because I know a lot of people were hacked off with his tactics, but no one wanted him sacked at that particular moment, as I remember there was genuine surprise that we were to finish the season under Morgan and most people I spoke to felt that our chances of promotion had gone down at that moment.
It's not about wanting them back now, but in my view we should have stuck with both of them at the time. As the OP says, probably because we didn't, we'll now stick with Adkins (for right or wrong).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Good post.

Woolford has been disappointing - and he knows it.

If I had to advocate for him I'd say he is positionally disciplined and so keeps us tight at the back. Not a surprise he started v Coventry.

Going forward he offers next to nothing and loses possession more than any player I can recall.

That said, his warm ups are outstanding. If he can't reproduce this in a match then I'd make DVD of his half-time changes of direction, flicks, and tricks, and sell him to a gullible (foreign) buyer for £15m.

Reminds me of when Bayern Munich were linked with a £2million move for David Carney. Couldn't believe that one!

 

[The Bohemian]

Very good opening post, lots of thought gone into that.

Just out of interest, as most of us were convinced Adkins would be a great appointment, and many of us thought he would not come to SUFC, who was your first choice to take over from Nigel Clough.

I do agree that sacking Wilson with six games left was like sacking Kevin Blackwell three games in.

My first choice, just based on who we could realistically attract to get us out of this division, was Karl Robinson.

With the notable exception of Bournemouth who spent large, and Wolves who were still receiving parachute payments, the other promoted teams in recent times have tended towards being strong, organised and menacing - not unlike Bassett's Class of 89 who took Div 3 by storm.

As a footnote, MK lost Dele Alli, their best player, to Spurs and provide another salutary lesson in how difficult life becomes in such circumstances.

 

[Hunkerby]

I do agree that sacking Wilson with six games left was like sacking Kevin Blackwell three games in.

The timing of managerial sackings has been shocking over the years at this club.
It would not surprise me if Adkins received a 'Merry Christmas' phone call Derick Dooley style on Christmas Eve.

 

[Ted Danson]

Stability is key - but only if there are signs of progress i.e. in league position, personnel, or if there is a core of incredibly talented youngsters about to come through. At the moment under Adkins I don't see any of those things. That's the worrying thing. Whilst I would love Adkins to be given at the very least two full seasons, maybe even 2 and a half, I just don't honestly see what he brings to the table.

That doesnt make sense to me, Id love him to be given 2.5 years yet the start of the sentence says only give them time if they're showing some signs of being a good manager, which Adkins is not.

So why would you want to give him 2.5 years?

I do agree with only giving them time if they are showing some signs of progress so at this current point in time id bin Adkins off

 

[Grappler]

My first choice, just based on who we could realistically attract to get us out of this division, was Karl Robinson.

With the notable exception of Bournemouth who spent large, and Wolves who were still receiving parachute payments, the other promoted teams in recent times have tended towards being strong, organised and menacing - not unlike Bassett's Class of 89 who took Div 3 by storm.

As a footnote, MK lost Dele Alli, their best player, to Spurs and provide another salutary lesson in how difficult life becomes in such circumstances.

I always thought Robinson was a long shot, seeing as how he had won promotion to the league above, didn't he have some talks with us before and knock us back? Same time period as Stuart McCall?

 

[The Bohemian]

I always thought Robinson was a long shot, seeing as how he had won promotion to the league above, didn't he have some talks with us before and knock us back? Same time period as Stuart McCall?

That was certainly the rumour and probably had some merit given how McCabe had decided to tighten the purse-strings for any new incumbent.

 

[BushBlade]

That doesnt make sense to me, Id love him to be given 2.5 years yet the start of the sentence says only give them time if they're showing some signs of being a good manager, which Adkins is not.

So why would you want to give him 2.5 years?

I do agree with only giving them time if they are showing some signs of progress so at this current point in time id bin Adkins off

Who would you replace him with and how long would you give them if they didn't show immediate signs of improvement?

 

[Ted Danson]

Who would you replace him with and how long would you give them if they didn't show immediate signs of improvement?

I just dont know, Im stuck in a quandary that the board proved they wouldnt support a manager who didnt get automatic promotion, Adkins isnt going to get it so why stick with him when its a lost cause?

Then couple that with the fact Im finding Adkins SUFC the most boring, weak, slow, unimaginative (that fucking weird free kick excluded) team Ive watched in years and years I just cant think of any reason to stick with him. If we get rid we have a chance of someone better, if we stick with him we have not.

My point about what borbokis said is that on one hand he says what Ive just said and then finishes it by saying he wants Adkins for 2.5 years.

 

[blade too long]

Mourinhos free now to get his dream job here
hes got to be worth a punt

 

[BushBlade]

I just dont know, Im stuck in a quandary that the board proved they wouldnt support a manager who didnt get automatic promotion, Adkins isnt going to get it so why stick with him when its a lost cause?

Then couple that with the fact Im finding Adkins SUFC the most boring, weak, slow, unimaginative (that fucking weird free kick excluded) team Ive watched in years and years I just cant think of any reason to stick with him. If we get rid we have a chance of someone better, if we stick with him we have not.

My point about what borbokis said is that on one hand he says what Ive just said and then finishes it by saying he wants Adkins for 2.5 years.

So you think we're worse than last year? Or the end of Wilson's tenure? Or Weir?

'If we get rid we have the chance of someone better'. In theory yes but who is better and what is the likelihood they'd come to us? It's like saying you should dump your girlfriend so you've got a better chance of pulling Kelly Brook.

That's why some people, myself included, believe that although he's not started off well, Adkins deserves time to sort it out. Personally, I think it was fucking stupid allowing Clough to recruit so many players and then sack him almost immediately afterwards. It was always going to cause problems for the next manager.
If a team is badly managed and you sack a manager and replace him with a better one, or sometimes just a different one, the players usually respond. However, whatever Jim says, we weren't badly managed by Clough, he made mistakes but we reached the playoffs and a cup semi. Should have done better but I'd guess a good 75% of the squad liked him, thought he was doing OK and weren't impressed by his sacking.
Adkins has had to deal with the fallout of that which is another reason I'm willing to give him time.

 

[BushBlade]

Mourinhos free now to get his dream job here
hes got to be worth a punt

He's shit, Portuguese Warnock. All about him.

 

[blade too long]

He's shit, Portuguese Warnock. All about him.

there may have been a tinge of irony in my post
like hed go to league one,,, really

I dont remember Warnock winning league titles and 2 champions leagues

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Mourinhos free now to get his dream job here
hes got to be worth a punt

'The Unemployed One'

 

[Ted Danson]

So you think we're worse than last year? Or the end of Wilson's tenure? Or Weir?

'If we get rid we have the chance of someone better'. In theory yes but who is better and what is the likelihood they'd come to us? It's like saying you should dump your girlfriend so you've got a better chance of pulling Kelly Brook.

That's why some people, myself included, believe that although he's not started off well, Adkins deserves time to sort it out. Personally, I think it was fucking stupid allowing Clough to recruit so many players and then sack him almost immediately afterwards. It was always going to cause problems for the next manager.
If a team is badly managed and you sack a manager and replace him with a better one, or sometimes just a different one, the players usually respond. However, whatever Jim says, we weren't badly managed by Clough, he made mistakes but we reached the playoffs and a cup semi. Should have done better but I'd guess a good 75% of the squad liked him, thought he was doing OK and weren't impressed by his sacking.
Adkins has had to deal with the fallout of that which is another reason I'm willing to give him time.

Yes I think we're worse than last year and Wilson's tenure and getting very close to Weir territory, when I watch the games I am reminded of Weir and Robson and I dont want us to continue that way.

For me the sacking of Clough was ridiculous, so if they are going to sack him for achieving what he did then the next guy has to hit the ground running or atleast show glimpses of building something however my appraisal of Adkins is that he certainly isnt an improvement on Clough and we are going backwards, his tactics and substitutions baffle me and he seems unable to motivate players. As the season looks like a write off I dont see why we dont sack him and get another in now then they have time to do the rebuilding in a season thats already ruined rather than having yet another 'transition' season next year.

People will say we have no money to do that but if we have no money why the hell did we waste however many millions sacking Clough and his backroom staff?

 

[BushBlade]

there may have been a tinge of irony in my post
like hed go to league one,,, really

I dont remember Warnock winning league titles and 2 champions leagues

There may have been a tinge of irony in my post too.

 

[BushBlade]

Yes I think we're worse than last year and Wilson's tenure and getting very close to Weir territory, when I watch the games I am reminded of Weir and Robson and I dont want us to continue that way.

For me the sacking of Clough was ridiculous, so if they are going to sack him for achieving what he did then the next guy has to hit the ground running or atleast show glimpses of building something however my appraisal of Adkins is that he certainly isnt an improvement on Clough and we are going backwards, his tactics and substitutions baffle me and he seems unable to motivate players. As the season looks like a write off I dont see why we dont sack him and get another in now then they have time to do the rebuilding in a season thats already ruined rather than having yet another 'transition' season next year.

People will say we have no money to do that but if we have no money why the hell did we waste however many millions sacking Clough and his backroom staff?

But if we sack him and bring someone else in what do we do if there's no improvement this year? Sack him as well or trust him to rebuild the squad. What happens if he isn't even as good as Adkins and we end up in a relegation battle?
How do you know we're going to get someone better if you can't name who you think should replace him? We could end up with another Weir.

 

[blade too long]

We could end up with another Weir.

Some seem to be of the opinion we have

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

When Wilson was fired, United were in 4th place, with a record of W17 D17 L7.

To replicate that this year, we will need to win 9, draw 11 and lose none of the next 20 league games.

Appalling? really?

It was appalling with that squad, I'd hate to think of our current misfits having to face Wilsons team in a match.

What's really appalling is what Coco is managing now, 11th/12th?

Coco had fucked up before a ball was kicked in anger.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Perhaps there are certain situations & atmospheres which are not allowing the manager & players to produce?

That's it blame the fans.

 

[The Bohemian]

It was appalling with that squad, I'd hate to think of our current misfits having to face Wilsons team in a match.

What's really appalling is what Coco is managing now, 11th/12th?

Coco had fucked up before a ball was kicked in anger.

That’s harsh on Wilson who had to reshape things on a vastly reduce budget in his second season.


Others may help me out here, but based on appearances his second half of the season team looked something like this:


……………………………………………Long


McMahon……………….Collins……………Maguire…………………..Hill



Flynn…………………McDonald…………….Robson………………….Murphy



………………….……..Kitson………………Porter/Ironside



Bearing in mind Murphy looked very ordinary until Clough got him playing, I would suggest that, from the above bunch, only Long, Maguire and McDonald would get in the current starting eleven. And in terms of salary budget I’d be surprised if the current lot didn’t cost 2 or 3 times Wilson’s squad.

 

[Barry Butlin]

I’m not cos I reckon if you add Maguire, McDonald, Blackman and Murphy to our squad now we would destroy this league. Better yet, if we’d not sold Blackman we might very well have gone up in 2013. If we’d not sold McDonald (hands tied I guess) we might have gone up in 2014 and if we’d not sold Maguire, we would have had a good chance of going up in 2015. If we’d not sold Murphy, we’d have a better chance of going up this year.

So when a player gets told by his agent that he can treble his money by moving what would you do Mr Moneybags?

 

[Longtime Blade]

I’m not cos I reckon if you add Maguire, McDonald, Blackman and Murphy to our squad now we would destroy this league. Better yet, if we’d not sold Blackman we might very well have gone up in 2013. If we’d not sold McDonald (hands tied I guess) we might have gone up in 2014 and if we’d not sold Maguire, we would have had a good chance of going up in 2015. If we’d not sold Murphy, we’d have a better chance of going up this year.

An earlier sale that probably led to a failure to get promotion was that of James Beattie in January 2009(?). With his goals we

could have been promoted that season. I've never forgotten McCabe's slippery performance when interviewed by Paul Walker on

RS just a few days before his transfer to Stoke. To every relevant question Mcabe's answer was "You're speculating, Paul".

 

[1danewhitehouse]

So when a player gets told by his agent that he can treble his money by moving what would you do Mr Moneybags?

I’m not saying they were all preventable. I’m pointing out that we are worse off for losing those players and investing the money in the likes of Woolford, Butler, McEveley etc as replacements. I think sales such as McDonald’s were unavoidable. On the other hand, having recently signed a contract, I think we could have held Murphy to it at least until the summer. We could have held onto Maguire against hill will and taken whatever compensation a tribunal decided the next summer (or sold with a loan back like MK did with Ali). I don’t think we were under much pressure to sell Blackman. I think McCabe just got excited about the quick profit on a cheap summer signing. I think we had to sell Naughton as he wanted out. I don’t think we had to throw Walker into the mix. But we don’t know the exact nature of the conversations that take place on any specific deal. We can only form an overall view from what we do know which is that we sell our best player every August and disrupt the season preparation and then fail to go up. If it looks like we might still do it, we chuck a January sale into the mix too to make sure the manager has no chance. Then we sack the manager and talk about how crap he was. Working out great so far isn’t it?

 

[Barry Butlin]

Some of those sales have been good business though and yes we are in a mess but the one thing is McCabe has put money, for me it all went tits up when we sacked Warnock and appointed Robson, had we not sacked Warnock and given him the money Robson had, he would not have signed Beattie or Hendrie, neither would he have increased Gillespies wages from 2K to 10K per week but we would have bounced straight back!!

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Some of those sales have been good business though and yes we are in a mess but the one thing is McCabe has put money, for me it all went tits up when we sacked Warnock and appointed Robson, had we not sacked Warnock and given him the money Robson had, he would not have signed Beattie or Hendrie, neither would he have increased Gillespies wages from 2K to 10K per week but we would have bounced straight back!!

Not saying he hasn't put money in. Just poor decisions. If he'd kept Maguire (against his will) last season and not signed Butler/McGahey/McEveley I think we'd have been much better off.

 

[BushBlade]

I’m not saying they were all preventable. I’m pointing out that we are worse off for losing those players and investing the money in the likes of Woolford, Butler, McEveley etc as replacements. I think sales such as McDonald’s were unavoidable. On the other hand, having recently signed a contract, I think we could have held Murphy to it at least until the summer. We could have held onto Maguire against hill will and taken whatever compensation a tribunal decided the next summer (or sold with a loan back like MK did with Ali). I don’t think we were under much pressure to sell Blackman. I think McCabe just got excited about the quick profit on a cheap summer signing. I think we had to sell Naughton as he wanted out. I don’t think we had to throw Walker into the mix. But we don’t know the exact nature of the conversations that take place on any specific deal. We can only form an overall view from what we do know which is that we sell our best player every August and disrupt the season preparation and then fail to go up. If it looks like we might still do it, we chuck a January sale into the mix too to make sure the manager has no chance. Then we sack the manager and talk about how crap he was. Working out great so far isn’t it?

I thought Blackman was sold to fund Murphy, Higginbottom, Robson, Forte and Poleon coming in. It was apparent after Miller got injured that we needed strengthening and I guess KM wasn't prepared to put that extra £1m or so in.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I thought Blackman was sold to fund Murphy, Higginbottom, Robson, Forte and Poleon coming in. It was apparent after Miller got injured that we needed strengthening and I guess KM wasn't prepared to put that extra £1m or so in.

Not sure. I thought we were told the sum offered was too good to turn down considering we'd signed him for next to nowt that summer. That list of names is depressing (Murphy apart)

 

[BushBlade]

Not sure. I thought we were told the sum offered was too good to turn down considering we'd signed him for next to nowt that summer. That list of names is depressing (Murphy apart)

We could do with a few more Murphy type signings and a few less Robson types.

 

[Hamburg Blade]

It's like saying you should dump your girlfriend so you've got a better chance of pulling Kelly Brook.

But if your girlfriend looks like Benefits Dee then absolutely anyone is going to make you feel like you've pulled Kelly Brook.

So either your (our) bird either needs to get her hair and make-up done pronto, cos a lot of lads haven't seen the potential yet, or you (we) really have pulled a minger and some (Ted Danson & co.) have sobered up a bit quicker than others.