Full backs

[Bergen Blade]

They are vital in David Weir's 4-2-3-1 formation. I think Westlake did well vs Notts County, but was below average vs Burton. Williams was disappointing vs Notts County and very poor vs Burton.

The "wingers" (Murphy/Brandy and Flynn/McFadzean) have clearly been told not to play as wingers, but to roam around the box, meaning they are often very central, meaning we rely on our full backs for width. It means they have to take great responsibility going forward, they have to be our outlet out there, and they have to try create something when they get the ball.

Marcus Williams either doesn't have the ability or the confidence to help us with the latter. We've had superior possession in both our first two matches and both Notts County and Burton have defended deep. This has meant that Williams always have had an unmarked Doyle or Collins to pass back to. And that's what he's done, almost every single time.

This means that attacks stop when we pass to him, whether he receives the ball in tight areas or in loads of space. Even when we through some decent passing give him the chance to run at people, cross the ball, or find a teammate making a forward run he chooses to roll the ball backwards to Doyle or Collins. This is not taking responsibility and we need better.


A couple of photos to show the situations I'm on about:



Great chance to run at an isolated full back, or even pass to the teammate in the top right corner, but Williams stopped and passed it backwards.


A chance to play a pass between a couple of opposition players to the onrunning Flynn. Again Williams stops and passes backwards, slowing us down, making it easier for the opposition.




I don't like singling out players, but a lot of people seem to be unaware of the problem mentioned. They may look at those situations and claim that Williams didn't lose possession. But if you think rolling it sideways and backwards, rather than taking good opportunities to penetrate, will give us promotion I think you'll end up disappointed.

We have to aim at being effective, even though we're looking to be more entertaining and possession-oriented. And we need players in every position to contribute to our attacking, not least our full backs.

 

[Kenilworth]

Spot on again Bergers.
Williams at fault for both Burton goals last night as he let the crosses come in.
Howard should have dealt with the first and Westlake was at fault in the second as he was ball watching when Hussey nipped in front of him. It is very worrying. Will be no surprise to me if McMahon is back on Saturday.
Williams is a major concern for me if he keeps defending like that and does not take on the oppo full back to get a decent cross in. Crying our for LJF but what about Johns and McGinty - are they any better?

 

[MBoreman]

Spot on again Bergers.
Williams at fault for both Burton goals last night as he let the crosses come in.
Howard should have dealt with the first and Westlake was at fault in the second as he was ball watching when Hussey nipped in front of him. It is very worrying. Will be no surprise to me if McMahon is back on Saturday.
Williams is a major concern for me if he keeps defending like that and does not take on the oppo full back to get a decent cross in. Crying our for LJF but what about Johns and McGinty - are they any better?

I did think McGinty looked promising against Atromitos, and at least you feel if he does badly he has more chance of improving and from a Mcabe point of view will (unfortunately) have the chance of going up in value, whereas Williams value will only go down (if it can get below zero).

 

[DazBlade88]

Spot on again Bergers.
Williams at fault for both Burton goals last night as he let the crosses come in.
Howard should have dealt with the first and Westlake was at fault in the second as he was ball watching when Hussey nipped in front of him. It is very worrying. Will be no surprise to me if McMahon is back on Saturday.
Williams is a major concern for me if he keeps defending like that and does not take on the oppo full back to get a decent cross in. Crying our for LJF but what about Johns and McGinty - are they any better?

I don't think Williams can be blamed for the second goal. As Bergen has rightly pointed out, he had many shortfalls the other night but there was no way he could have got there quick enough to stop the cross. I think you're spot on regarding the Howard and Westlake though.

Johns won't be a left back for us, we're definitely trying to make him into a winger.

 

[Guesty]

As limited as he is, Williams just didn't have the movement or the options in front of him on the left flank all match for him to be able to make any impression going forward. Even if he'd knocked the ball around the Fullback and dashed past him, there was always a man spare to mop up. The wingers simply didn't stay wide enough.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

They are vital in David Weir's 4-2-3-1 formation. I think Westlake did well vs Notts County, but was below average vs Burton. Williams was disappointing vs Notts County and very poor vs Burton.

The "wingers" (Murphy/Brandy and Flynn/McFadzean) have clearly been told not to play as wingers, but to roam around the box, meaning they are often very central, meaning we rely on our full backs for width. It means they have to take great responsibility going forward, they have to be our outlet out there, and they have to try create something when they get the ball.

Marcus Williams either doesn't have the ability or the confidence to help us with the latter. We've had superior possession in both our first two matches and both Notts County and Burton have defended deep. This has meant that Williams always have had an unmarked Doyle or Collins to pass back to. And that's what he's done, almost every single time.

This means that attacks stop when we pass to him, whether he receives the ball in tight areas or in loads of space. Even when we through some decent passing give him the chance to run at people, cross the ball, or find a teammate making a forward run he chooses to roll the ball backwards to Doyle or Collins. This is not taking responsibility and we need better.


A couple of photos to show the situations I'm on about:

View attachment 6176

Great chance to run at an isolated full back, or even pass to the teammate in the top right corner, but Williams stopped and passed it backwards.

View attachment 6177
A chance to play a pass between a couple of opposition players to the onrunning Flynn. Again Williams stops and passes backwards, slowing us down, making it easier for the opposition.




I don't like singling out players, but a lot of people seem to be unaware of the problem mentioned. They may look at those situations and claim that Williams didn't lose possession. But if you think rolling it sideways and backwards, rather than taking good opportunities to penetrate, will give us promotion I think you'll end up disappointed.

We have to aim at being effective, even though we're looking to be more entertaining and possession-oriented. And we need players in every position to contribute to our attacking, not least our full backs.

I think the other option is to play two solid defensive full backs (McMahon and Hill), only one defensive midfielder (Doyle), two attacking midfielders (McDonald and McGinn) and three genuine attackers (Murphy, Brandy and Porter/Taylor).

This would mean that Murphy and Brandy could provide the width, the full backs could push into midfield alongside Doyle when we're attacking rather than being expected to get forward, overlap and then get back again to defend. McDonald and McGinn/Coady would both be given the free creative/attacking role that only McDonald has got at the moment.

I think this formation would make us more resilient away from home and more likely to break teams down at home.

__________Long
McMahon Collins Maguire Hill
_________Doyle_________
____McDonald McGinn_____
Brandy___ Taylor____ Murphy

 

[Kenilworth]

I don't think Williams can be blamed for the second goal. As Bergen has rightly pointed out, he had many shortfalls the other night but there was no way he could have got there quick enough to stop the cross. I think you're spot on regarding the Howard and Westlake though.

Johns won't be a left back for us, we're definitely trying to make him into a winger.

Lost his man - cross came in - no issue where the fault is for me.
Shame as I thought he was very good against Notts - if a little tentative when he was very far up the pitch.
We just cannot afford for players to defend that badly against L2 teams - never mid the step up for L1 teams.

 

[Revolution]

Bergs is spot on when he says that full backs are vital in this formation. So is the lone striker.

It is perhaps a shame that the system depends so much on the strength of these players when they are arguably the most limited 3 players in the starting XI we have used so far.

That is not playing to your strengths.

 

[Toronto Blade]

Some good points but it is a little different for a player playing at full speed ,under pressure with teamates calling out to him to pass it to them it all happens in a split second.Alot different to dissecting the play using frame by frame to point out a mistake the player doesn't have that luxury at the time.

 

[Wards]

You say that but these are patterns of play they will have practiced time and again during training.

 

[God]

They are vital in David Weir's 4-2-3-1 formation. I think Westlake did well vs Notts County, but was below average vs Burton. Williams was disappointing vs Notts County and very poor vs Burton.

The "wingers" (Murphy/Brandy and Flynn/McFadzean) have clearly been told not to play as wingers, but to roam around the box, meaning they are often very central, meaning we rely on our full backs for width. It means they have to take great responsibility going forward, they have to be our outlet out there, and they have to try create something when they get the ball.

Marcus Williams either doesn't have the ability or the confidence to help us with the latter. We've had superior possession in both our first two matches and both Notts County and Burton have defended deep. This has meant that Williams always have had an unmarked Doyle or Collins to pass back to. And that's what he's done, almost every single time.

This means that attacks stop when we pass to him, whether he receives the ball in tight areas or in loads of space. Even when we through some decent passing give him the chance to run at people, cross the ball, or find a teammate making a forward run he chooses to roll the ball backwards to Doyle or Collins. This is not taking responsibility and we need better.


A couple of photos to show the situations I'm on about:

View attachment 6176

Great chance to run at an isolated full back, or even pass to the teammate in the top right corner, but Williams stopped and passed it backwards.

View attachment 6177
A chance to play a pass between a couple of opposition players to the onrunning Flynn. Again Williams stops and passes backwards, slowing us down, making it easier for the opposition.




I don't like singling out players, but a lot of people seem to be unaware of the problem mentioned. They may look at those situations and claim that Williams didn't lose possession. But if you think rolling it sideways and backwards, rather than taking good opportunities to penetrate, will give us promotion I think you'll end up disappointed.

We have to aim at being effective, even though we're looking to be more entertaining and possession-oriented. And we need players in every position to contribute to our attacking, not least our full backs.

Sorry Bergen but I don't think you've read Williams options correctly on either of these pictures.

TOP PIC - The fullback has clearly read the situation and is actually pointing to his midfielders to close one of Williams options down so that HE can actually attack Williams forcing him to think again and pass it back.

SECOND PIC - The full back above Flynn is pointing to the potential space where Williams is likely to pass the ball into for Flynn to run on to. The back line adjust so as to cut the ball out if passed into that space. Williams spots this potential cut out of pass and decides to retain the ball (as probably instructed) by passing it back.

Patience is a virtue.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Sorry Bergen but I don't think you've read Williams options correctly on either of these pictures.

TOP PIC - The fullback has clearly read the situation and is actually pointing to his midfielders to close one of Williams options down so that HE can actually attack Williams forcing him to think again and pass it back.

SECOND PIC - The full back above Flynn is pointing to the potential space where Williams is likely to pass the ball into for Flynn to run on to. The back line adjust so as to cut the ball out if passed into that space. Williams spots this potential cut out of pass and decides to retain the ball (as probably instructed) by passing it back.

Top pic - The full back is forcing Williams to pass it back in the same manner as an arm-waving goalkeeper is forcing a penalty taker to make a pass backwards instead of shooting. It's a great chance to run at an isolated full back with no second defender covering behind him. It's criminal not to make an attempt!

Second pic - When you struggle to get in behind teams, you should try finding space between the midfield line and defensive line, or use width. That situation is a great chance to achieve both. Flynn had a poor game, but he must be frustrated at being neglected when he did find some space.

 

[DazBlade88]

Lost his man - cross came in - no issue where the fault is for me.
Shame as I thought he was very good against Notts - if a little tentative when he was very far up the pitch.
We just cannot afford for players to defend that badly against L2 teams - never mid the step up for L1 teams.

But surely he has to close the man carrying the ball when nobody else was near him. You'd rather them be forced wide than driving straight through the middle. The cross did come in but in order to close it down he would have to be quicker than Brandy!

There's no getting away from how poor the defending was though. Too many players guilty of it the other night, but in the grand scheme of things it's a good thing for Weir to see and be able to work on the weaknesses that haven't really been highlighted before now.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Some good points but it is a little different for a player playing at full speed ,under pressure with teamates calling out to him to pass it to them it all happens in a split second.Alot different to dissecting the play using frame by frame to point out a mistake the player doesn't have that luxury at the time.

That's true, but when it happens almost every time, it's a sign of a player not confident enough or not good enough to help us create. In some games it will be enough to leave the responsibility to McDonald, Brandy and Murphy. It was against ten man Notts County, though it wasn't against Burton Albion. Weir has to assess what he requires from our full backs and look for additions if our current options can't give us that.

 

[Bergen Blade]

As limited as he is, Williams just didn't have the movement or the options in front of him on the left flank all match for him to be able to make any impression going forward. Even if he'd knocked the ball around the Fullback and dashed past him, there was always a man spare to mop up. The wingers simply didn't stay wide enough.

I think it's part of Weir's instructions to have the "wingers" cutting inside to open up space for the overlapping full backs, i.e. it's mainly the full backs' task to give us width.

 

[Guesty]

But when the fullback has the ball, looks down the flank and sees two opposition players facing him, obviously he's going to turn inside and play the ball square! The wingers may have been told to drift inside but they weren't taking their man with them, they were leaving the fullbacks isolated and congesting the middle of the park.

 

[Bergen Blade]

But when the fullback has the ball, looks down the flank and sees two opposition players facing him, obviously he's going to turn inside and play the ball square!

The first photo shows a situation when he only had one opposition player facing him, and there were other examples.

 

[Guesty]

I'm sure there were, but not enough.

 

[God]

Top pic - The full back is forcing Williams to pass it back in the same manner as an arm-waving goalkeeper is forcing a penalty taker to make a pass backwards instead of shooting. It's a great chance to run at an isolated full back with no second defender covering behind him. It's criminal not to make an attempt!

Second pic - When you struggle to get in behind teams, you should try finding space between the midfield line and defensive line, or use width. That situation is a great chance to achieve both. Flynn had a poor game, but he must be frustrated at being neglected when he did find some space.

First Pic - Waving goal keeper ??? nah. A waving goalkeeper tries to distract the taker. Are you saying thats what the fullback is doing and not dragging his team mates into place?

Second Pic - Agree with finding spaces between midfielders so long as the pass is on, but not at the expence at giving the ball away. Williams had obviously spotted the space was about to be closed down.

Interesting how we interpret situations differently.

 

[Eskimo]

I like sotalls suggested formation and I'd be interested to see Flynn in midfield next to Macdonald. Nothing wrong with McGinnfrom what I have seen so far though, I'm just suggesting an alternative .

 

[Guesty]

I like sotalls suggested formation and I'd be interested to see Flynn in midfield next to Macdonald. Nothing wrong with McGinnfrom what I have seen so far though, I'm just suggesting an alternative .

Aye, if we can ship Flynn of to Wolves too the day won't have been a total waste!

 

[Bergen Blade]

First Pic - Waving goal keeper ??? nah. A waving goalkeeper tries to distract the taker. Are you saying thats what the fullback is doing and not dragging his team mates into place?

Second Pic - Agree with finding spaces between midfielders so long as the pass is on, but not at the expence at giving the ball away. Williams had obviously spotted the space was about to be closed down.

Interesting how we interpret situations differently.

If you can't see that it's a great chance to run at an isolated full back, and fully possible to pass between those two players we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I think the other option is to play two solid defensive full backs (McMahon and Hill), only one defensive midfielder (Doyle), two attacking midfielders (McDonald and McGinn) and three genuine attackers (Murphy, Brandy and Porter/Taylor).

This would mean that Murphy and Brandy could provide the width, the full backs could push into midfield alongside Doyle when we're attacking rather than being expected to get forward, overlap and then get back again to defend. McDonald and McGinn/Coady would both be given the free creative/attacking role that only McDonald has got at the moment.

I think this formation would make us more resilient away from home and more likely to break teams down at home.

__________Long
McMahon Collins Maguire Hill
_________Doyle_________
____McDonald McGinn_____
Brandy___ Taylor____ Murphy

If McDonald leaves (and until Miller or De Girolamo returns) that may be something Weir will try, although I think we'd need attacking contributions from the full backs in that formation as well.

 

[God]

If you can't see that it's a great chance to run at an isolated full back, and fully possible to pass between those two players we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm afraid we will.