Did Fleck Dive?

[Fanny magnet]

Ridiculous this
In the 80's and 90's it's a dive
Nowadays it's a legbreaking tackle

 

[Sheffsteel]

Sky watched numerous replays and they said “there was definite contact, so was a definite penalty”
They admitted though that they felt Fleck over exagerrated it.

On the Channel 5 they were more 50/50.
Saying a defending manager would say no pen and attacking manager a penalty.

It just proves that even with VAR, there are still some decisions that are hard to say one way or the other.

My view is the defender was going to make a challenge but pulled out.
There was still contact but my opinion is the contact was minimal and Fleck could have stayed on his feet.
A bit 50/50 but i’d say no penalty.

However it made no difference really because the Leon Clarke challenge looked more a penalty to me.
I was sat directly behind the goal on the Kop, we all said the ref bottled that decison because he’d just given us a penalty.

Also let’s be honest, we were slightly the better team on the day and just about deserved the win.

 

[Blend-it-like-Harris]

He wouldn’t have gone down on the halfway line. That’s the point.

This bollocks about contact made being enough for a penalty needs looking at. It’s a contact sport.

Defenders need to make contact with the ball though, not the player's legs (unless he makes contact with the ball first). The rules are clear enough; it was a legitimate penalty - no argument.
Rugby is a contact sport...............

 

[mattbianco1]

Not seen any replays yet but a couple of images floating around twitter would suggest he sold it well with little, if any, contact.

Anyone sit on the kop /family stand / pointless corner bit who got a conclusive view?

No definite contact.

I wouldn't say he "dived" as there was definite contact. However, he appeared to go different to how the challenge should have made him fall. Rather theatrical but hey, however, 3pts. Much needed too

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Not seen any replays yet but a couple of images floating around twitter would suggest he sold it well with little, if any, contact.

Anyone sit on the kop /family stand / pointless corner bit who got a conclusive view?

You’d need to define dive.
Did the contact mean he couldn’t have stayed on his feet? Yes, I’d say he could have stayed on his feet but wouldn’t have gotten a penalty. He was also going down prior to contact.

Was it a foul and by going down he forced a decsion in his favour? Yes.

 

[JohnDenver]

He enhanced the contact so some simulation was used, the thing is though if he stays on his feet we don’t get the pen because most refs are fucking atrocious and don’t know how to play the game.

Ouch, the S word....

I'd call it exaggeration not simulation. The imponderables are whether he'd have gone down if he actually tried to stay on his feet, and whether the ref would have given it had he done so. I don't like the theatrics but I understand why players do it. Those who dive when there's no challenge are far worse than this.

In other news, has anyone noticed how Baldock has cut out the diving since joining us? In his first couple of games he liked to hit the deck. Wilder has clearly told him to concentrate on other matters.

 

[nowtfancy]

Fleck got to the ball first, and was then brought down. He could maybe have got out of the way but you only then get a penalty if you are an overrated scouser.
Not sure he would have been able to get to the ball had he not been fouled, but i guess that is irrelevant.

I haven't managed to see a replay yet of the foul on clarke, which to me was as nailed on a pen as any I've ever seen.

 

[Tynemouth Blade]

Not seen any replays yet but a couple of images floating around twitter would suggest he sold it well with little, if any, contact.

Anyone sit on the kop /family stand / pointless corner bit who got a conclusive view?

For me it's a yes, although there was contact, but Leon's claim was more of a clear cut penalty in my opinion!

 

[DaleHillBlade]

No

Agreed, and frankly, don't care.

 

[Antonb]

There was contact . It was a pen . Defender tried to pull away but was to late. Tripped him up. In this day and age it's a pen

 

[wizadry]

Ouch, the S word....

I'd call it exaggeration not simulation. The imponderables are whether he'd have gone down if he actually tried to stay on his feet, and whether the ref would have given it had he done so. I don't like the theatrics but I understand why players do it. Those who dive when there's no challenge are far worse than this.

In other news, has anyone noticed how Baldock has cut out the diving since joining us? In his first couple of games he liked to hit the deck. Wilder has clearly told him to concentrate on other matters.

Call it whatever you want JD but he could’ve stayed on his feet, I’ve no doubt about it but the players clearly feel the need to go down because otherwise the inept refs won’t give a foul.

Either way it was a bad decision from the defender to dangle his leg where Fleck was running and the defender knew it looking at his reaction in the highlights thread.

I hate the saying there’s contact so he must go down, it’s bollocks of the highest order but will only be stamped out of the game if the refs gets better and imply the laws properly. For me it’s only a foul if someone is trying to gain an advantage from the decision that player makes, which in the instance of Fleck the defender clearly made a wrong decision and tried to gain an advantage from his poor decision making, therefore a penalty.

Fully agree regards Baldock who at the minute is doing twice the work rate of Stevens who clearly needs dropping, a player who I really like aswell.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Ref says pen.

End of thread.

 

[Harry's Game]

The were there incidents that should have been penalties yesterday, two to us and one to Leeds, the ref only gave one.

And it was a penalty.

 

[Kevincarterversion2.0]

Fleck made the most of it but there was definite contact - plus in real time the spead of the challege would have made it look like a foul to the referee.

 

[loyalblade95]

thought it was a dive at the time but if you look back at the highlights where the camera is close up on him you can see the defender just catches him as he's pulling out

 

[Damski]

No penalty. Fleck exaggerated his fall to fool the referee into thinking there was more contact than there was. That is simulation, and a foul. All the trailing leg/contact stuff goes out of contention because Fleck commited a foul. No penalty, indirect free kick to the defending team. Next.

 

[Shoes_On]

Who cares, we won

 

[metalblade]

100% a dive for me.

Pig

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

He could maybe have got out of the way but you only then get a penalty if you are an overrated scouser.

I assume you're referencing our Stevie G there mate, but I don't agree.
Our Stevie G wasn't an over rated scouser. A cheating, slimeball of a scouser yes, but he was a good player......sadly!

 

[DaleHillBlade]

No penalty. Fleck exaggerated his fall to fool the referee into thinking there was more contact than there was. That is simulation, and a foul. All the trailing leg/contact stuff goes out of contention because Fleck commited a foul. No penalty, indirect free kick to the defending team. Next.

IF what you say is correct.. then Fleck commits his foul after the defender, penalty stands.

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Ref says pen.

End of thread.

Ref says pen. Lots of people have an opinion on that decision....thread opened again

 

[metalblade]

Best view is from the camera behind Fleck which clearly shows his leg was clipped enough when running at speed to bring him down. There is some moaning fuckers on this thread how many times do those decisions go against us? Most of the time I'd suggest

 

[Guesty]

I assume you're referencing our Stevie G there mate, but I don't agree.
Our Stevie G wasn't an over rated scouser. A cheating, slimeball of a scouser yes, but he was a good player......sadly!

Just as a player can be fouled but also simulate, one can be both good and overrated. I'd suggest that Gerrard was both.

 

[ljk]

It looked like he went down easily, but I do think that's something we need to do more (without straying into blatant diving) to avoid finding ourselves at a disadvantage whenever we're chasing a game. It's annoying, but it's becoming necessary.

Against Villa there were 3 or 4 occasions in the second half when we we're trying to control the game (like we had in the first), but everytime space got a little tighter in the final third and our players went shoulder to shoulder with Grealish, he went down, got the freekick, then all momentum was lost.

I thought Lee Evans did this to good effect yesterday, and great effect V Norwich.

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Just as a player can be fouled but also simulate, one can be both good and overrated. I'd suggest that Gerrard was both.

I thought he was a very good player Guesty, but I take your point.
The way the press/commentators used to fawn over him was sickening which is perhaps why you have the over-rated view.
I don't think he was a world beater by any means but consistently performed scoring some cracking goals and pinged passes about effortlessly.
He could tackle as well. I'd have loved a player like him in our team, but sadly, his penchant for a bit of 'simulation' made me lose a lot of respect for him.

 

[fuerstenberger]

Fleck was moving at speed. A glancing touch of a leg can throw a players balance. If you watch how he falls it is anything but controlled. He smacks his head on the deck. For me, it was a pen. Personally, due to Fleck's speed and the nature of the fall, I would say he didn't dive. If he did dive, I,would suggest he is dispraxic, which of course is rediculous as a pro footballer.

 

[metalblade]

I don't no how any real Unitedite can say it was a dive, not when compared to the absolute stone wall pen awarded to the pigs at Oakwell.

 

[Pinchy]

He wouldn’t have gone down on the halfway line. That’s the point.

This bollocks about contact made being enough for a penalty needs looking at. It’s a contact sport.

You make a good point, but, unless and until altered, the rules (laws in association football) is the rules. It was a foul tackle committed in the penalty area and that’s a penalty.

I almost wish it wasn't. The thought of cheating the ultimate cheats has a rich appeal.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Can't understand this debate what Fleck did is part of football intelligence and always has been,drawing a foul clever stuff and yes it was a penalty 100%

 

[iBlade.]

If you are running full pelt and some someone else runs at you sideways on, makes even the slightest contact with you, then you will go to ground wether you like it or not. If you don't believe me try it. I wouldn't try it on a hard surface though and don't come back to me if you break a limb.