Did Adkins stumble across the winning formula tonight?

[William Henry Foulkes]

Why does he obviously have to play?



Why would he be concerned? If Sharp's that limited that he doesn't work in a formation which works a lot better than the crap we've been putting out recently, then you don't try to put square pegs in round holes (I thought we learned that last season re: the centre back debacle) and use another option. It's a team game, nobody has a divine right to a starting berth.



I think this could work quite well, but it's pretty reliant on having our full backs playing very high up the park, so it's something I'd rather see this when Brayford/Harris are properly back - maybe using Flynn as an alternative? That said I'd much rather use Sammon, higher workrate and a more obvious focal point if we can't pass it through the opposition and need someone to hold it up.



Stat padding to give us that 20 goal striker that various idiots have demanded. Sharp getting 15 + 5 pens rather than getting 15 with Baxter scoring the same 5 pens instead is clearly a critical improvement to our promotion chances.

WHF Jr Sr is a nice lad. That's why.

 

[BushBlade]

Bergen Blade I think you're in for a real treat when you see the game.

To answer your question: WHF Jr Sr thought it was all about the 4-3-3, but is concerned about where Sharp would fit in.

I thought it was all about speed of passing and general intent, which may of course stem from having players available in the 4-3-3.

There was all sorts tonight that was great to watch.

It has to be said that they really did let us play, but play we did. The big question is can we do it on Saturday in a real game? If we can it will be great to watch.

How did they line up WHF?

My Sky app has them 4411 with Baxter tucked behind Done.
And Wooly at LB? Is that right?

I'm assuming if it's a 433 it would be Scougs Baxter and Reed behind JCR, Done and Che.

Was Reed sat deeper, Scougs the runner and Baxter the most advanced?
Did Baxter make runs beyond Done into the box?
Did Adams come narrow when JCR was attacking wide and vice versa?

 

[PokerBlade]

Just Blades Player highlights or reduced YouTube highlights as well?
I can't access either from work but I'll have a look at YouTube when I get home.

Only watched it on Player.

 

[Bergen Blade]

How did they line up WHF?

My Sky app has them 4411 with Baxter tucked behind Done.
And Wooly at LB? Is that right?

I'm assuming if it's a 433 it would be Scougs Baxter and Reed behind JCR, Done and Che.

Was Reed sat deeper, Scougs the runner and Baxter the most advanced?
Did Baxter make runs beyond Done into the box?
Did Adams come narrow when JCR was attacking wide and vice versa?

Watching at the moment:

Long

Freeman McGahey McEveley Woolford

Reed
Baxter - - - - - - - Scougall

JCR - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Done
Adams
​

Quite fluent at times though. At the end of the first half Baxter dropped a bit deeper alongside Reed, with Scougall just in front.

 

[blade too long]

sounds like the revolutionary 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 formation
every man for himself

 

[BushBlade]

Watching at the moment:

Long

Freeman McGahey McEveley Woolford

Reed
Baxter - - - - - - - Scougall

JCR - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Done
Adams
​

Quite fluent at times though. At the end of the first half Baxter dropped a bit deeper alongside Reed, with Scougall just in front.

Cheers Gaffer.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

How did they line up WHF?

My Sky app has them 4411 with Baxter tucked behind Done.
And Wooly at LB? Is that right?

I'm assuming if it's a 433 it would be Scougs Baxter and Reed behind JCR, Done and Che.

Was Reed sat deeper, Scougs the runner and Baxter the most advanced?
Did Baxter make runs beyond Done into the box?
Did Adams come narrow when JCR was attacking wide and vice versa?

WHF Jr Sr assured me it was 4-3-3 and then tried to explain the intricacies by referring to Barcelona.

Bergen Blade is infinitely better at understanding and explaining systems than me, and I'm looking forward to what he hopefully has to say about the game.

There was a lot of fluidity in the attacking I thought, eg, like I just said in another thread Adams appeared in the centre circle and played slide rule passes to runners.

Scoogs also played at least one of these passes too, as well as picking the ball up and driving forwards with it, having two(?) good shots before the goal, and entertainingly running round his man the way a pixie might confuse an ogre.

Baxter seemed to - almost - run the game(!): constantly in motion(!!), asking for the ball, prompting and probing, but you can't look good in that role unless teammates make themselves available near and far, and they did.

But...can we do it all when it really matters?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I'd also add that the players seemed to be very clear in their roles, just from the general purposefulness.

(It's hard to go about anything with any great intent if you don't know what it is you're meant to be doing.)

This might sound like it should always happen, but several times I've heard professionals express preferences for one manager over another bc one made it clear what was expected, and another didn't.

 

[Darthblade]

Was it 4-3-3? Lots of pace and directness in the forward positions, ball players in midfield, Scougs back in his favoured role, Baxter pushed further forward?

The Port Vale starting line up certainly looked very slow in comparison.

The title may be a bit over the top, but there may be things to take from this "meaningless" game. Looking forward to comments from those who were there.

No !!
UTB & FTP

 

[Bergen Blade]

A couple of positives about last night:

Defensively

A problem for us this season has been that the opposition teams have found too much space between our midfield and defence. Playing 4-4-2, our central duo has often struggled to cover enough space and we've had to make tweaks to try and compensate. Yesterday in the 4-3-3/4-5-1, we were usually quite compact and the extra body centrally prevented County from running through us and finding space in the mentioned area.





Offensively

Lots more pace and movement. More determination to exploit counter attacks. Several examples of us winning the ball and bombing forward with great runs. A couple of examples:




Look, even Baxter desperately wants to get into the box. With Reed sitting deeper, both Baxter and Scougall made good forward runs to support the front three of Adams, JCR and Done.

In our 4-4-2 we've had two strikers, but often inconsistent support from midfield and not much pace.

Adkins has at least learned that he's got an alternative to his main approach so far. The 4-3-3/4-5-1 has worked well for him on two occasions now. It will be very interesting to see how we'll line up on Saturday.

 

[Bartleby]

Just watched it on Bladesplayer and I thought we played with some zip and confidence - they were a poor L2 side but it was still a massive opportunity for a fuck up but we didn't. Can't help wondering if the small crowd and very quiet atmosphere actually had a postitive effect in terms of:

1) less pressure on our players (but kind of hoping that's not the case)

2) less of a buzz for their players to get up for it (not such a big day out )

3) less pressure on the ref , so we actually got some decisions in our favour (or maybe we just got a decent one for a change?)

Other thoughts:

Matty Done is a fucking gem - fantastic work ethic, tracked back and made some great tackles, and very reminiscent of Murphy when he took his goal from a slide rule pass on the break.

Some sublime moves from JCR

Scougall - enjoyed his goal and the short corner routine that led to it, and also his pass to Adams that led to the last penalty

Baxter - had a decent game and also he has to be first choice penalty taker

 

[fishpie]

Just watched it on Bladesplayer and I thought we played with some zip and confidence - they were a poor L2 side but it was still a massive opportunity for a fuck up but we didn't. Can't help wondering if the small crowd and very quiet atmosphere actually had a postitive effect in terms of:

1) less pressure on our players (but kind of hoping that's not the case)

2) less of a buzz for their players to get up for it (not such a big day out )

3) less pressure on the ref , so we actually got some decisions in our favour (or maybe we just got a decent one for a change?)

Other thoughts:

Matty Done is a fucking gem - fantastic work ethic, tracked back and made some great tackles, and very reminiscent of Murphy when he took his goal from a slide rule pass on the break.

Some sublime moves from JCR

Scougall - enjoyed his goal and the short corner routine that led to it, and also his pass to Adams that led to the last penalty

Baxter - had a decent game and also he has to be first choice penalty taker

Just watched it on Bladesplayer and I thought we played with some zip and confidence - they were a poor L2 side but it was still a massive opportunity for a fuck up but we didn't. Can't help wondering if the small crowd and very quiet atmosphere actually had a postitive effect in terms of:

1) less pressure on our players (but kind of hoping that's not the case)

2) less of a buzz for their players to get up for it (not such a big day out )

3) less pressure on the ref , so we actually got some decisions in our favour (or maybe we just got a decent one for a change?)

Other thoughts:

Matty Done is a fucking gem - fantastic work ethic, tracked back and made some great tackles, and very reminiscent of Murphy when he took his goal from a slide rule pass on the break.

Some sublime moves from JCR

Scougall - enjoyed his goal and the short corner routine that led to it, and also his pass to Adams that led to the last penalty

Baxter - had a decent game and also he has to be first choice penalty taker

Matty Done is indeed a gem. I knew his name when he signed for us, but that was about it, so relied on comments from Rochdale fans basically. All good, but impression was his major asset was his effort.. Feel a bit daft that I was underwhelmed when he signed for us..Can't wait for him to be fully fit and back in the league. UTB

 

[Bartleby]

Matty Done is indeed a gem. I knew his name when he signed for us, but that was about it, so relied on comments from Rochdale fans basically. All good, but impression was his major asset was his effort.. Feel a bit daft that I was underwhelmed when he signed for us..Can't wait for him to be fully fit and back in the league. UTB

At Rochdale I believe Keith Hill moved him from out wide to a central position and it really paid off

 

[Slim Man]

The thing with Matt Done, it's not just his effort it's his pace. If Flynn tries harrassing their backline and chasing down lost causes he isn't as quick so he could easily get caught out.

Done will run at them all day long, and by the time they've got over to exploit him not being in his position he's that quick he's back over to his side in a flash.

I'd have him in the team over absolutely anyone at the moment. but I'd love to see him wide as part of a front three.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

A couple of positives about last night:

Defensively

A problem for us this season has been that the opposition teams have found too much space between our midfield and defence. Playing 4-4-2, our central duo has often struggled to cover enough space and we've had to make tweaks to try and compensate. Yesterday in the 4-3-3/4-5-1, we were usually quite compact and the extra body centrally prevented County from running through us and finding space in the mentioned area.

View attachment 13859



Offensively

Lots more pace and movement. More determination to exploit counter attacks. Several examples of us winning the ball and bombing forward with great runs. A couple of examples:

View attachment 13861

View attachment 13860
Look, even Baxter desperately wants to get into the box. With Reed sitting deeper, both Baxter and Scougall made good forward runs to support the front three of Adams, JCR and Done.

In our 4-4-2 we've had two strikers, but often inconsistent support from midfield and not much pace.

Adkins has at least learned that he's got an alternative to his main approach so far. The 4-3-3/4-5-1 has worked well for him on two occasions now. It will be very interesting to see how we'll line up on Saturday.

As always interesting and insightful Bergen. I just have a couple of observations though.

In your last picture, Adams is holding the ball up and JCR, Baxter, Scougall and Done are all making forward runs. That is pleasing to see and that sort of movement is an absolute must if you’re playing 451/433. I just have a few of concerns about this.

1. Adams is a long way ahead of the runners. Against better and more aggressive centre backs, will he/Sharp/Sammon be able to hold it up long enough for the runners to arrive and pick them out?

2. Against better opposition with midfield threats like Rochdale, Will Reed sitting deep offer enough protection to the back 4 if these players bomb forward.

3. If we don’t Have Basham in midfield or Sammon up front, will we be too small to deal with set pieces etc much like last season?

The reason I raise these points is that when we’ve played a system and lost (442 at Vale on Saturday) people (not aimed at you Bergen) are very quick to remember the advantages that an alternative system (433) can provide whilst almost immediately forgetting the vulnerabilities it also brings. Same goes for the style (tippy tappy to hoof and everything in between). Suppose it’s human nature and the grass is always greener mentality.

Before the Nott’s game, I thought it was best to play Coutts on one wing and one of Done/Adams down the other with Baxter and Basham in the midfield and Sharp and Sammon up front as that would allow us to shift between 442 and 433 with Coutts having the ability to tuck in and Done being able to joint the front line. Good performances from Reed, JCR & Scougall will have given the manager some selection headaches though. He will research the opposition and hopefully decide upon the system and personnel that will give us the best possible chance for the next game.

 

[Grappler]

From my own limited footballing knowledge (watching United for about 45 years!), I think our present back four would be safer with 4-5-1 than 4-3-3, depending who the "3" in the middle are. Big, athletic midfielders and forwards could quite easily over run our midfield 3 in a counter, if they catch us on the break, leaving them to take on our back four, as Port Vale did on Saturday.

 

[BushBlade]

No system is better than another per se. It's paper, scissors, stone.

The key is to play a system that suits your players and one that will be effective against most of your opponents.

So Fergie used to play 442 a lot in the league but made sure he had the players to play 451 in the Champions League.

And when Man U played a bottom of the table side, tactics were less relevant because man for man they were much better and could just impose their game on the opposition. When they played in the CL against better opposition who were often more tactically aware they had to adapt accordingly and tactics became far more important.

 

[Woodwardfan]

As always interesting and insightful Bergen. I just have a couple of observations though.

In your last picture, Adams is holding the ball up and JCR, Baxter, Scougall and Done are all making forward runs. That is pleasing to see and that sort of movement is an absolute must if you’re playing 451/433. I just have a few of concerns about this.

1. Adams is a long way ahead of the runners. Against better and more aggressive centre backs, will he/Sharp/Sammon be able to hold it up long enough for the runners to arrive and pick them out?

2. Against better opposition with midfield threats like Rochdale, Will Reed sitting deep offer enough protection to the back 4 if these players bomb forward.

3. If we don’t Have Basham in midfield or Sammon up front, will we be too small to deal with set pieces etc much like last season?

The reason I raise these points is that when we’ve played a system and lost (442 at Vale on Saturday) people (not aimed at you Bergen) are very quick to remember the advantages that an alternative system (433) can provide whilst almost immediately forgetting the vulnerabilities it also brings. Same goes for the style (tippy tappy to hoof and everything in between). Suppose it’s human nature and the grass is always greener mentality.

Before the Nott’s game, I thought it was best to play Coutts on one wing and one of Done/Adams down the other with Baxter and Basham in the midfield and Sharp and Sammon up front as that would allow us to shift between 442 and 433 with Coutts having the ability to tuck in and Done being able to joint the front line. Good performances from Reed, JCR & Scougall will have given the manager some selection headaches though. He will research the opposition and hopefully decide upon the system and personnel that will give us the best possible chance for the next game.

Rochdale are a good side and they have goals in them on the break. Adkins talked of sometimes playing three systems in one game depending on the opposition and the way the game's panning out. I think he'll start cautious and might even leave out Done for the first hour, bearing in mind he did not do pre-season training. Only this week Adkins mentioned that Flynn's type of injury can easily be picked up by a player who didn't train pre-season.

I see it as 4-4-2: Howard: Freeman, Kennedy, Collins, Wallace: Coutts, Baxter, Basham, Woolford: Sharp Sammon.

After an hour we'll have any three from: Done, Scougall, Adams, Reed, McNulty to go on and win the game.

Done has to score against his old club surely. 4-3-3 for the last 30 minutes seems irresistable to me!!

Against lesser opponents we could well start 4-3-3.

 

[Woodwardfan]

No system is better than another per se. It's paper, scissors, stone.

The key is to play a system that suits your players and one that will be effective against most of your opponents.

So Fergie used to play 442 a lot in the league but made sure he had the players to play 451 in the Champions League.

And when Man U played a bottom of the table side, tactics were less relevant because man for man they were much better and could just impose their game on the opposition. When they played in the CL against better opposition who were often more tactically aware they had to adapt accordingly and tactics became far more important.

Very true, but then there is that long held view that our clubs and country always treat the foreign teams with too much respect and should play their more natural game.

Certainly the smaller clubs in the Prem are gaining more points having a go at the big boys these days after years of 10 men behind the ball even at home ( including us).

As for United in League 1, we should be playing to our strengths and looking to discourage the opposition from the first whistle. How many teams started to fancy it at Bramall Lane after about half an hour last season. Now we are shaking off some injuries we have loads more firepower and don't need to pace our best players as much.

 

[Pinchy]

I've come to realise, over the years, that the best system involves talented players who know their own game and that of the other talented players in the team. They even manage to get round those white lines, dots and arrows that people put in their way. Remarkable.

Oi, Pele, Gerson, Jairzinho and Rivelino, stop fucking about all over the pitch, it's 4-5-1 today....one of you silly cunts is supposed to be holding!....

 

[Pinchy]

Very true, but then there is that long held view that our clubs and country always treat the foreign teams with too much respect and should play their more natural game.

Certainly the smaller clubs in the Prem are gaining more points having a go at the big boys these days after years of 10 men behind the ball even at home ( including us).

As for United in League 1, we should be playing to our strengths and looking to discourage the opposition from the first whistle. How many teams started to fancy it at Bramall Lane after about half an hour last season. Now we are shaking off some injuries we have loads more firepower and don't need to pace our best players as much.

Foreign teams deserve respect. They have showed over the years that their technique is vastly superior. They control the ball in an instant and are always on the move, always aware of the bigger picture. National teams of so called minor nations have routinely played "England's" laughably labelled "golden generation" off the pitch. Maybe it's because they value and utilise natural ability and flair above rigid formations?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Rochdale are a good side and they have goals in them on the break. Adkins talked of sometimes playing three systems in one game depending on the opposition and the way the game's panning out. I think he'll start cautious and might even leave out Done for the first hour, bearing in mind he did not do pre-season training. Only this week Adkins mentioned that Flynn's type of injury can easily be picked up by a player who didn't train pre-season.

I see it as 4-4-2: Howard: Freeman, Kennedy, Collins, Wallace: Coutts, Baxter, Basham, Woolford: Sharp Sammon.

After an hour we'll have any three from: Done, Scougall, Adams, Reed, McNulty to go on and win the game.

Done has to score against his old club surely. 4-3-3 for the last 30 minutes seems irresistable to me!!

Against lesser opponents we could well start 4-3-3.

I hope you're wrong about Woolford. I think we need at least one of JCR, Done or Adams out there or we've got nobody who can go past a man and real pace in the team. I'd probably go for Done over Woolford and have Adams and JCR coming into the game later.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I've come to realise, over the years, that the best system involves talented players who know their own game and that of the other talented players in the team. They even manage to get round those white lines, dots and arrows that people put in their way. Remarkable.

Oi, Pele, Gerson, Jairzinho and Rivelino, stop fucking about all over the pitch, it's 4-5-1 today....one of you silly cunts is supposed to be holding!....

Are you suggesting there should be no formations or systems in play and that players should just go out an do what they want? Pele & Co was before my time but the likes of Rivaldo, Denislon, Romario, Ronaldo etc I'm sure appreciate the importance of a Dunga to do that holding role.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Are you suggesting there should be no formations or systems in play and that players should just go out an do what they want? Pele & Co was before my time but the likes of Rivaldo, Denislon, Romario, Ronaldo etc I'm sure appreciate the importance of a Dunga to do that holding role.

It gives them a platform to play from and stops the team getting overrun allowing individuals to make the most of their strengths. Remember the champions league final when Liverpool were 3-0 down against AC Milan. Hamman came on to play the holding midfield role and just look at how Gerrard's game changed. He was given more license to attach and hauled Liverpool back into the game.

Arsenal haven't had a holding midfielder since Gilberto Silva and have won very little since.

 

[Bergen Blade]

It gives them a platform to play from and stops the team getting overrun allowing individuals to make the most of their strengths. Remember the champions league final when Liverpool were 3-0 down against AC Milan. Hamman came on to play the holding midfield role and just look at how Gerrard's game changed. He was given more license to attach and hauled Liverpool back into the game.

Arsenal haven't had a holding midfielder since Gilberto Silva and have won very little since.

Francis Coquelin has done well after coming into the side last season.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/10/05/stats...ive-midfielder-in-the-premier-league-5422439/

 

[Bergen Blade]

I've come to realise, over the years, that the best system involves talented players who know their own game and that of the other talented players in the team. They even manage to get round those white lines, dots and arrows that people put in their way. Remarkable.

Oi, Pele, Gerson, Jairzinho and Rivelino, stop fucking about all over the pitch, it's 4-5-1 today....one of you silly cunts is supposed to be holding!....

 

[Newbury Blade]

I've come to realise, over the years, that the best system involves talented players who know their own game and that of the other talented players in the team. They even manage to get round those white lines, dots and arrows that people put in their way. Remarkable.

Oi, Pele, Gerson, Jairzinho and Rivelino, stop fucking about all over the pitch, it's 4-5-1 today....one of you silly cunts is supposed to be holding!....

You forgot: "Tostao … get back in that fucking hole!"

 

[Pinchy]

Are you suggesting there should be no formations or systems in play and that players should just go out an do what they want? Pele & Co was before my time but the likes of Rivaldo, Denislon, Romario, Ronaldo etc I'm sure appreciate the importance of a Dunga to do that holding role.

No. I'm simply stating the obvious truth that talent is more important than systems. Football's memorable moments come from the sublime genius of brilliant players, not some amateur manager playing games with videos, arrows and hyphens.

 

[Worksop II]

Are you suggesting there should be no formations or systems in play and that players should just go out an do what they want? Pele & Co was before my time but the likes of Rivaldo, Denislon, Romario, Ronaldo etc I'm sure appreciate the importance of a Dunga to do that holding role.

Mauro Silva was also in the same team, another Defensive Midfielder

 

[BushBlade]

Very true, but then there is that long held view that our clubs and country always treat the foreign teams with too much respect and should play their more natural game.

Certainly the smaller clubs in the Prem are gaining more points having a go at the big boys these days after years of 10 men behind the ball even at home ( including us).

As for United in League 1, we should be playing to our strengths and looking to discourage the opposition from the first whistle. How many teams started to fancy it at Bramall Lane after about half an hour last season. Now we are shaking off some injuries we have loads more firepower and don't need to pace our best players as much.

It's just an example that illustrates very clearly the point I made about tactics and systems.

I'm sure there is a long held view that we should boot the ball at the big man and leave the fancy stuff to Jonny Foreigner but it won't be held by anyone who's been successful at international level or anyone who's won a major trophy in Europe and is still alive.