Composure in the second half

[Nedski]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

 

[bartman]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

The Coventry game was affected by the Egan sending after which i thought our game management was excellent.

Blackpool were only going to score from set pieces. We seemed to forget how to keep hold of the ball but did we look like conceeding after their goal ?

We need more energy from the bench to stretch opposition defences when teams are pushing on to us. Jebbo and Sharp being on meant Blackpool could push further up the pitch for the last ten minutes .

Khadra should be a solution for this but it hasnt worked out for him so far

 

[Snowflake]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

True, but we don’t know the reason it happens and therefore cannot guess at the solution.
What we all hope is that the management team can do both !

 

[Nightsweats]

I don't think worrying about anything that might happen if we go up serves any purpose whatsoever.
I'm concerned the issues you IMO rightly raise need addressing to maximise our chances of getting promoted.
These views are shared with plenty of other contributors on here but dismissed as heresy by plenty who either cannot see any fault in SUFC per se or point to results with performances being ignored.

IMO we won't get through the rest of the season winning game after game by one goal having done the hard yards in getting comfortable only to leave fans biting fingernails as we inevitably sit back inviting the opposition on which, with nothing further to lose they welcome. Bafflingly late, or non existent subs, bizarre in game management add to the "match experience" although I'm pretty sure it's one we would be overjoyed to not be put through.
Obviously we will lose games. Obviously we won't be "on it" for 90 mins every game. What I find inexplicable is that we stop doing what puts us in commanding positions instead of killing the opposition off and making the rest of the game much less stressful than is currently the case.

 

[Frank the tank]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

Ive certainly had the same thoughts during games but it has to be taken into consideration that players are not match fit after long lay offs and some are tiring and others are not being risked

Take the blackpool game tgey tactically changed things to shut down our right hand side which worked but if we had thrown lowe on earlier him and mcatee would have had more space to exploit this
Surely hecky could see this but he obviously didnt want to over use lowe after his second long absence so we carried on until later in the game

So whats worse we could have lost but we also could have lost lowe and been stuck with enda at left wing back who looks like a shadow of his former self

 

[A_Bladesman]

The Coventry game was affected by the Egan sending after which i thought our game management was excellent.

Blackpool were only going to score from set pieces. We seemed to forget how to keep hold of the ball but did we look like conceeding after their goal ?

We need more energy from the bench to stretch opposition defences when teams are pushing on to us. Jebbo and Sharp being on meant Blackpool could push further up the pitch for the last ten minutes .

Khadra should be a solution for this but it hasnt worked out for him so far

It was a good result vs blackpool was expecting a draw. Khadra's salary has been stated as low by paul heckingbottom, he should be captain of the under 21's IMO. He needs start up funds, his own police clothes, a cowboy hat. Possibly a briefcase and a lift.

 

[BigBed]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

Yeah, just thinking of how bad we were second half against the league leaders.......

Its not just second half, we just seem to turn off at points throughout the whole game, not every game, but most.
We tend to do it midway through the first, and then just before and after halftime, and then when the subs are getting readied around the 75th min.

 

[Stevo]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

It seemingly goes to shit because the opposition changes tactics, the only thing we could do better imo is to keep possession better, we need to remember that the other team we play actually want to win too and will sometimes out muscle and battle hard against us

 

[PokerBlade]

I think with the injuries we've been more inclined to take our foot off the pedal with the pressing. It's hard to keep that intensity up with so many games coming and so many players at risk. With a fit squad with all our options available I'd much prefer us to go for the kill in games. The other thing we've been struggling with is without McBurnie we lack options for the out ball. Sharp's not big or mobile enough to be able to knock it up to him and expect a whole lot and that gets us pinned in more when we do sit off. N'Diaye's mobile but he's not going to win much in the air. Not that McBurnie's best use is as a target man...that was a disaster, but he at least gives you that option.

Doyle back too helps a lot. McAtee obviously has a lot of talent coming forward but Doyle adds a lot more bite to the midfield as well as helping us hold possession.

 

[A_Bladesman]

It seemingly goes to shit because the opposition changes tactics, the only thing we could do better imo is to keep possession better, we need to remember that the other team we play actually want to win too and will sometimes out muscle and battle hard against us

 

[Jan Age]

The excuse before was the amount out injured.

The excuse now is full match fitness for those that are now back.

In another couple of games barring injuries the excuses will run out if they haven’t already.

Those below us will invest and improve and as this season goes on will have less to lose when playing us so will take more risks with their improved players. Thus we need to get better soon.

If we don’t forget the 11 point gap. Results are hiding performances massively and there’s only so long you get away with that.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I’d flip this the other way and say that some of the recent 1 goal wins we’ve had would have become draws or losses last season, we’re showing more desire to see games through this season, despite some pretty panicky stuff at times.

 

[Nightsweats]

The excuse before was the amount out injured.

The excuse now is full match fitness for those that are now back.

In another couple of games barring injuries the excuses will run out if they haven’t already.

Those below us will invest and improve and as this season goes on will have less to lose when playing us so will take more risks with their improved players. Thus we need to get better soon.

If we don’t forget the 11 point gap. Results are hiding performances massively and there’s only so long you get away with that.

Excellent post. What genuinely concerns and baffles me is that not only does the manager see a totally different game but responds to any of the points with unprofessional basic resentment bordering on rudeness in interviews.

I'm beginning to wonder if he is Alan Knill not Chris Wilder by which I mean he is very good in all aspects of the job away from managing the 90, but almost like a rabbit in the headlights during them.
I would expect him to see and deal with our customery drop offs but stands motionless and engages in lengthy conversations with McAll that result in either no change or frequently a strange one. When a team clearly shows signs of vulnerability and loss of focus the manager should act to raise levels and get them back on track. Players look for support and affirmation not a static, introverted seemingly distant figure.

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

It's not only the second half, surrendering the initiative and making it much more uncomfortable than it should be

It's the overall performance level. The last 4 games are good examples. Won them all but the margin in scoreline, stats and the rest is so much closer than it should be between us and the likes of Wigan and Blackpool

Until this changes there will be nagging doubt

We don't have the 'promotion team' look yet. As soon as we do, that's when the fat lady will be singing, to answer the other thread

Most of this is down to the manager

 

[Big.Dane.w]

Excellent post. What genuinely concerns and baffles me is that not only does the manager see a totally different game but responds to any of the points with unprofessional basic resentment bordering on rudeness in interviews.

I'm beginning to wonder if he is Alan Knill not Chris Wilder by which I mean he is very good in all aspects of the job away from managing the 90, but almost like a rabbit in the headlights during them.
I would expect him to see and deal with our customery drop offs but stands motionless and engages in lengthy conversations with McAll that result in either no change or frequently a strange one. When a team clearly shows signs of vulnerability and loss of focus the manager should act to raise levels and get them back on track. Players look for support and affirmation not a static, introverted seemingly distant figure.

My thoughts exactly

I’m on the fence with Hecky, think he’s good but not great. A common comeback to this opinion is ‘look at his results and our league position’ granted but he just doesn’t fill me with any confidence I just don’t ever feel fully confident of us seeing a game out while we have Hecky stood expressionless on the side line.
I do think that he has inherited a good squad in an average championship and it will be enough to get us over the line but IMO this will be down to the squad not so much the manager and his tactics.

We won’t last more than a season in the Prem (that’s the spirit hey!) I just don’t see us competing up there we’re hanging on against the likes of Blackpool ffs BUT personally I prefer the thrill of the chase getting to the Prem more than actually being there, the income and parachute payments will be very very welcome and if used wisely could see us with a cat A academy and maybe pay off the mortgage on the ground which surely would leave us a very attractive investment for someone even if/when relegated.

 

[Frank the tank]

The excuse before was the amount out injured.

The excuse now is full match fitness for those that are now back.

In another couple of games barring injuries the excuses will run out if they haven’t already.

Those below us will invest and improve and as this season goes on will have less to lose when playing us so will take more risks with their improved players. Thus we need to get better soon.

If we don’t forget the 11 point gap. Results are hiding performances massively and there’s only so long you get away with that.

What an entitled ungrateful attitude

 

[Caseh]

Some very odd opinions on here when you consider the results in Hecky's time as manager. When people are saying Hecky is succeeding because he was left with a good squad are fogetting Jokanovic's results before him.

 

[bartman]

The excuse before was the amount out injured.

The excuse now is full match fitness for those that are now back.

In another couple of games barring injuries the excuses will run out if they haven’t already.

Those below us will invest and improve and as this season goes on will have less to lose when playing us so will take more risks with their improved players. Thus we need to get better soon.

If we don’t forget the 11 point gap. Results are hiding performances massively and there’s only so long you get away with that.

We have acored the 2nd most goals in the league and conceeded the least. As you mentioned, we have acheived this despite numerous injury issues. We have won the last 5 games away from home. Who is making excuses ?

How do you know that those below us will 'invest and improve' ? Where is their money coming from ?

Our performances lately have been to get in fromt and manage the game which we have done excellently.

My only concern is getting McBurnie fit.

We will lose a few before the end of the season but 11/12 wins and a few draws amd we will be promoted

 

[Big.Dane.w]

Some very odd opinions on here when you consider the results in Hecky's time as manager. When people are saying Hecky is succeeding because he was left with a good squad are fogetting Jokanovic's results before him.

Jokanovic tried playing in a way that didn’t suit, Hecky went back to wilder formation I’m no coach but I reckon I could have took over from Jok, set them back up in a 352 and got better results than he managed

I’m not Hecky bashing I’m just not convinced he’s the master tactician most make him out to be, for me he’s gone back to basics with a good squad that suits, that and the inconsistency of other teams on the championship and we are where we are.

 

[bartman]

Excellent post. What genuinely concerns and baffles me is that not only does the manager see a totally different game but responds to any of the points with unprofessional basic resentment bordering on rudeness in interviews.

I'm beginning to wonder if he is Alan Knill not Chris Wilder by which I mean he is very good in all aspects of the job away from managing the 90, but almost like a rabbit in the headlights during them.
I would expect him to see and deal with our customery drop offs but stands motionless and engages in lengthy conversations with McAll that result in either no change or frequently a strange one. When a team clearly shows signs of vulnerability and loss of focus the manager should act to raise levels and get them back on track. Players look for support and affirmation not a static, introverted seemingly distant figure.

Nevee heard any interview with Hecky where he has been rude( unlike Wilder) or where he showed resentment( unlike Wilder in his final season)

In what way arent we on track ? How do you know the players aren't supported. How would a ranting manager waving his arms around make a difference ?

Hecky's job is to manage the team as he sees it( and i am sure he will acknowledge he gets things wrong sometimes). He will see things differently to fans as he knows what the tactics are, what players should be doing on the pitch and their fitness levels

Signs of vulnerability ? Don't most tesms show this at some stage during a game ? The fact we have conceeded the least goals in the league would suggest in game management by the management team and players is ok. We would all like performances to get even better but we are a solid workmanlike team with a few special players who can win games for us

 

[TJB.]

we need to remember that the other team we play actually want to win too and will sometimes out muscle and battle hard against us

This is a really important point.

Some of the comments from fans seem to indicate that there's a number of us who seemingly expect a high-scoring win and a high percentage of possession every time we get on the pitch. When the opposition have a good spell on the ball and perhaps even dare to score against us, people lose their shit.

There's two teams on the pitch who want to compete. We're not always going to have it all going our way and that's perfectly acceptable. It's how you deal with a side coming at you that counts and we seem to be doing quite well in that department if you look at the table.

If we don’t forget the 11 point gap. Results are hiding performances massively and there’s only so long you get away with that.

Cannot get on board with that statement at all. Huddersfield was one where you could say we played crap but still won (understandable with it being the first game back after the WC), but to suggest we're riding our luck with our performances in games lately is one hell of a take.

 

[Isar]

I too am massively concerned, we have won 8 out of the last 10, lost one and drawn the other. Not good enough.
I feel we should all panic because Hecky and co don't have a clue about playing out games.
Rant over.

 

[JohnDenver]

I'm not trying to be too negative here-the stats obviously show we've won 8 of the last 9 which is impressive in itself, but there are still problems that need addressing sooner rather than later.

Unless we implode on a scale that only we can, its looking increasingly likely we're being promoted. I can't see a massive overhaul in the starting 11 should this happen which is why we've really got to work on our second half performances now or we're going to be in big big trouble when Haaland and Co come to town.

Our first half performances have generally been fine. When we're on the front foot attacking, passing quickly, winning the ball high up the pitch, we look a class above everyone else in the championship.

Second half comes along and it all goes to shit. We sit deeper, let them have the ball, and invite pressure. 3-0 vs Coventry and 2-0 vs Blackpool we should be cruising, seeing the game out, and maybe adding one or two more goals. Instead we concede and panic. We sit even deeper, give them more time and space, and spend 30 minutes hoofing the ball down the channels while never looking comfortable. The ball comes straight back, we can't get near it, and we look vulnerable and very very average. This is against Coventry and Blackpool ffs, also Huddersfield, Wigan and the rest.

This needs addressing and fixing asap. Why can't we just continue to play our game and arrogantly put teams to the sword? We're easily good enough, we've got the players, we should be putting in 90 minute performances that prove this.

In his interviews PH points out that opponents have simply pushed their players high up the pitch late in games and we’ve been forced to mark them.

So what I’d look at is how we play better on the counter rather than how we attempt to dominate for 90 minutes. Sharp isn’t remotely suited to that approach, but McAtee, Ndiaye, Khadra and Doyle should be.

 

[Frank the tank]

Jokanovic tried playing in a way that didn’t suit, Hecky went back to wilder formation I’m no coach but I reckon I could have took over from Jok, set them back up in a 352 and got better results than he managed

I’m not Hecky bashing I’m just not convinced he’s the master tactician most make him out to be, for me he’s gone back to basics with a good squad that suits, that and the inconsistency of other teams on the championship and we are where we are.

Ridiculous post
Find one quote of someone saying he is a master tactician and i will give you a free ticket for every game forever

Also if all hes done is gone back to basics then playing three number 10's and being the highest goalscorers in the league is pretty impressive basics

Im glad you think you could have done beyter than jokanivic maybe you could but explain to me how if all hecky did was go back to wilders formation then how come we were so awful under wilder ?

 

[Weasel]

We needed pace up top the other night v Blackpool later in the game as Blackpool were pushing onto us especially after they were given hope with their goal. For a period of 10 mins is so after their goal we went way too deep, consistently got the ball and under pressure in our own half, just aimlessly puntednit forward and lo and behold it kept coming back. I was screaming for them to push up the pitch. For that 10 mins we were rocking which was a huge turnaround from how we had been in the match up to their goal.

After this little 10 minute storm, I noticed that we suddenly seemed to be a further 15 years up the pitch collectively with Berge and Norwood getting hold of the ball much more, the defence getting time again to find midfield players and we looked composed again. Other than Madines missed header late on (which was a genuine chance and he knew it by his reaction) I couldn't see them scoring again. What we needed at this point was pace up top to stop them from pushing onto us. For his faults Khadra might have been a good option at this point as he has pace and would have given them something to worry about and this not be able to push forward as much as they did. I think we missed a trick not having him as an option v Blackpool if only for nuisance value on the break.

 

[Maidenhead]

I think some posters on this thread need to revisit their expectations.

We have taken the lead in 18 games this season.

Of those we have won 15, drawn 3 and lost none and yet we have multiple people questioning our game management.

Every time we take to the field the opposition have 18 professionals attempting to thwart our efforts and whilst we may have better players and a good spirit the margins remain fine.

I hear commentators on this league saying many times that any team can beat any other team on their day, and we're not exempt from this.

Despite this, here we sit 11 points clear in 2nd place with the second best goals for in the division and the best defensive record by a distance and still some folk think that the manager isn't good enough and constantly gets his selections and substitutions wrong.

Well I'm sorry but the facts and figures say different unless you have ridiculous expectations and complete disrespect for the opposing professionals.

 

[Jan Age]

This is a really important point.

Some of the comments from fans seem to indicate that there's a number of us who seemingly expect a high-scoring win and a high percentage of possession every time we get on the pitch. When the opposition have a good spell on the ball and perhaps even dare to score against us, people lose their shit.

There's two teams on the pitch who want to compete. We're not always going to have it all going our way and that's perfectly acceptable. It's how you deal with a side coming at you that counts and we seem to be doing quite well in that department if you look at the table.



Cannot get on board with that statement at all. Huddersfield was one where you could say we played crap but still won (understandable with it being the first game back after the WC), but to suggest we're riding our luck with our performances in games lately is one hell of a take.

Not really … Blackpool we were poor for 45 minutes …

Coventry the same.

Wigan want great either.

Don’t get me wrong we are doing enough to win these games with the quality we have.

And our difficulty to be broken down is to be admired but as far as overall performances go they ain’t great.

 

[Jan Age]

We have acored the 2nd most goals in the league and conceeded the least. As you mentioned, we have acheived this despite numerous injury issues. We have won the last 5 games away from home. Who is making excuses ?

How do you know that those below us will 'invest and improve' ? Where is their money coming from ?

Our performances lately have been to get in fromt and manage the game which we have done excellently.

My only concern is getting McBurnie fit.

We will lose a few before the end of the season but 11/12 wins and a few draws amd we will be promoted

You can have a poor performance and score three from set prices

You can have a poor performance and not conceed.

My worry is how long we can keep getting results without the performance to go with it.

 

[Frank the tank]

Not really … Blackpool we were poor for 45 minutes …

Coventry the same.

Wigan want great either.

Don’t get me wrong we are doing enough to win these games with the quality we have.

And our difficulty to be broken down is to be admired but as far as overall performances go they ain’t great.

Shame you cant enjoy youre team being in this position
Makes me wonder when you actually can enjoy it

 

[Jan Age]

What an entitled ungrateful attitude

LOL … not really just my thoughts

Without knowing me to call me entitled and ungrateful is a bit silly