Clough, the story so far...

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Clough has done an excellent job. No doubt.

But to suggest he inherited a mess from Weir is harsh. Doubt I will get many to agree on this but consider this.

Someone HAD to take this club by the scruff of the neck and transform its ethos, mantra and philosophy from top to bottom.

This was bound to be painful initially, as the transformation required was a stark one.

Let us not forget who started the journey.

UTB.

Think that is a wee bit generous

or is that you Davie, you come back?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Don't know where you found that stat board Sothall_Blade, but just another point to underline how well Cloughie has done since taking the job as manager UTB

I found it on my laptop where I've been updating it for the last few years
All the figures are taken from Soccerbase.com and yes it does include cup matches.
I'm not sure how much difference the two/three points for a win scenario would make.
It would be interesting to see if somebody can be arsed to work it out.
When did 3 points per game come in anyway? Porterfield?

 

[Darren]

I found it on my laptop where I've been updating it for the last few years
All the figures are taken from Soccerbase.com and yes it does include cup matches.
I'm not sure how much difference the two/three points for a win scenario would make.
It would be interesting to see if somebody can be arsed to work it out.
When did 3 points per game come in anyway? Porterfield?

Yes, beginning of 81-82

2 points for a win would give you on a pts per game basis:

1. Clough 1.333
2. Wilson 1.330
3. Spackman 1.326
4. Kendall 1.159
5. Blackwell 1.136
6. Porterfield 1.124
7. Warnock 1.108
8. Harris 1.078
9. Bruce 1.0727
10. Davison 1.0726
11. Mercer 1.058
12. Robson 1.053
13. Freeman 1.045
14. Nicholson 1.030
15 Bassett 1.020
16. Coldwell 1.000
16. Rowley 1.000
18. Furphy 0.950
19. Thompson 0.941
20. McEwan 0.919
21. Haslam 0.886
22. Speed 0.833
23. Heath 0.826
24. Sirrell 0.777
25, Peters 0.750
26. Adams 0.542
27. Weir 0.385

The only changes are Bruce and Robson jumping 2 places and Coldwell and Rowely tieing for 16th.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Yes, beginning of 81-82

2 points for a win would give you on a pts per game basis:

1. Clough 1.333
2. Wilson 1.330
3. Spackman 1.326
4. Kendall 1.159
5. Blackwell 1.136
6. Porterfield 1.124
7. Warnock 1.108
8. Harris 1.078
9. Bruce 1.0727
10. Davison 1.0726
11. Mercer 1.058
12. Robson 1.053
13. Freeman 1.045
14. Nicholson 1.030
15 Bassett 1.020
16. Coldwell 1.000
16. Rowley 1.000
18. Furphy 0.950
19. Thompson 0.941
20. McEwan 0.919
21. Haslam 0.886
22. Speed 0.833
23. Heath 0.826
24. Sirrell 0.777
25, Peters 0.750
26. Adams 0.542
27. Weir 0.385

The only changes are Bruce and Robson jumping 2 places and Coldwell and Rowely tieing for 16th.

Interesting but I think that SellyOakBlade was implying that earlier managers would have employed different tactics based on 3 points for a win. So you would need to work on 2 points for a win for managers before Porterfield and 3 points for a win from Porterfield onwards. Then calculate the percentage of points they gained from those available to them.

That's why I couldn't be arsed

 

[Selly]

Interesting but I think that SellyOakBlade was implying that older managers would have employed different tactics based on 3 points for a win. So you would need to work on 2 points for a win for managers before Porterfield and 3 points for a win from Porterfield onwards. Then calculate the percentage of points they gained from those available to them.

That's why I couldn't be arsed

Yes, this.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Yes, beginning of 81-82

2 points for a win would give you on a pts per game basis:

1. Clough 1.333
2. Wilson 1.330
3. Spackman 1.326
4. Kendall 1.159
5. Blackwell 1.136
6. Porterfield 1.124
7. Warnock 1.108
8. Harris 1.078
9. Bruce 1.0727
10. Davison 1.0726
11. Mercer 1.058
12. Robson 1.053
13. Freeman 1.045
14. Nicholson 1.030
15 Bassett 1.020
16. Coldwell 1.000
16. Rowley 1.000
18. Furphy 0.950
19. Thompson 0.941
20. McEwan 0.919
21. Haslam 0.886
22. Speed 0.833
23. Heath 0.826
24. Sirrell 0.777
25, Peters 0.750
26. Adams 0.542
27. Weir 0.385

The only changes are Bruce and Robson jumping 2 places and Coldwell and Rowely tieing for 16th.

Weir still shit then

 

[Elsecar_Blade]

NC has performed wonders. Darren is right about the historical perspective but Nigel can't take the blame for that.

We are transformed. The team now has organisation, method, purpose, flexibility and a nice helping of quality. Oh and we're in the last eight of the greatest Cup in the world.

The tide is definitely turning. With backing Nige is going to build a very good team indeed. Maybe the crowd will give him a personal salute some time soon?

Happy days ahead. Let's enjoy.

Oh, forgot....

I Scoogs!

Bang on. This feels like the tide has turned. I think we bottomed out under Weir - though I worried we'd bottom out in League 2 - and now we're climbing up. There's a lot of positives at the moment - players that were mediocre at best months ago are now looking amongst the best in League 1, we have a manager who clearly knows his onions, we've made what looks to be a couple of great signings in the JTW in Brayford, Harris and Scougall (a successful windown, chuff me), we're starting to worry less and less about the drop and we've still got the summer and some money in the bank ready to spend. Chuck in the FA Cup QF and things look rosy. I'd argue we're overall in a better situation than our Wednesday brethren across in South Barnsley as long as we're going to mount a promotion push next season.

 

[Darren]

Interesting but I think that SellyOakBlade was implying that earlier managers would have employed different tactics based on 3 points for a win. So you would need to work on 2 points for a win for managers before Porterfield and 3 points for a win from Porterfield onwards. Then calculate the percentage of points they gained from those available to them.

That's why I couldn't be arsed

But that would always have the 3 point wallahs winning by a mile. The highest 2 point chap would be Harris on 1.078 which would put him below Thompson and Speed for example (1.24 and 1.17) - in fact every manager since 1981 would have a better record than every managerbefore 1981 apart from Heath, Adams and Weir.

You have to compare like with like - a notional 2 poin standard or a notional 3 point standard.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

But that would always have the 3 point wallahs winning by a mile. The highest 2 point chap would be Harris on 1.078 which would put him below Thompson and Speed for example (1.24 and 1.17) - in fact every manager since 1981 would have a better record than every manager after 1981 apart from Heath, Adams and Weir.

You have to compare like with like - a notional 2 poin standard or a notional 3 point standard.

not in court now, only talking about 16th place

 

[Elsecar_Blade]

Someone HAD to take this club by the scruff of the neck and transform its ethos, mantra and philosophy from top to bottom.

This was bound to be painful initially, as the transformation required was a stark one.

I get your point DB, personally think Weir's inexperience cost him. The intentions were right (not the results but the change in style and ethos) but he didn't have the know how and experience to do that whilst getting wins. Clough has the experiences at Burton and Derby and must be enjoying being in a situation where he has some financial breathing space rather than having to cut costs the minute he begins a la Derby. Our budget from crowds/cup success plus the Prince's investment in the summer should allow him, IMO, to build a team to at least challenge next season. I expect him to take us up in 2015 or 2016.

If the season started when Clough took charge, we have 1.61 points per game > 74 points and probably the Play Off spots. With a summer to "tinker" with the squad, I expect him to improve that PPG number and challenge for the top two. Especially if Wolves, Brentford and Preston bugger off and Donny, Barnsley and Yeovil come down.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

But that would always have the 3 point wallahs winning by a mile. The highest 2 point chap would be Harris on 1.078 which would put him below Thompson and Speed for example (1.24 and 1.17) - in fact every manager since 1981 would have a better record than every managerbefore 1981 apart from Heath, Adams and Weir.

You have to compare like with like - a notional 2 poin standard or a notional 3 point standard.

I think this is what he means:-



I'm not sure if we're any the wiser though

In other words Harris got more of the points available to him at the time.
Draws had a greater comparitive value than they do now.
He may have changed tactics to get the 3 points if they were available?

 

[Darren]

I think this is what he means:-

View attachment 7421

I'm not sure if we're any the wiser though

That has the opposite effect of artifically knocking down the 3 points for a win chaps. If the 2 points for a win people get a draw that's 50% of the avialable points whereas if the 3 points for a win people get a draw it's only 33%.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Yes but as I added above. Harris was 4th best manager at getting the points that were available to him at the time.
Therefore, maybe he should be ranked 4th best on the list? That was SOB's point I think.

 

[Darren]

Yes but as I added above. Harris was 4th best manager at getting the points that were available to him at the time.
Therefore, maybe he should be ranked 4th best on the list? That was SOB's point I think.

I think you should also weigh it in terms of the opposition, so D1 points would be worth more than D2 points and so on

 

[anglian blade]

I think you should also weigh it in terms of the opposition, so D1 points would be worth more than D2 points and so on

I would go further and rate its on average position finished and trophies won - the latter ruling out any post war manager

 

[GrayBlade]

Some managers come into a club and get their excuses in early, saying it'll take at least a couple of seasons to sort the mess out left by the previous incumbent. Nigel Clough has rolled his sleeves up, assessed who he wants to stay, who he feels is better off elsewhere, the style of play that suits the players we have, plus he's acquired players who have made a crucial difference. Nothing short of remarkable as far as turn-arounds go, and all done in a matter of months!

Now we sit in the heady heights of 12th in this poxy division. When I recall where we were only a few games ago and now we're able to breathe a little easier. None of which means we should count chickens, get too carried away.....but let's be right, it's difficult not to look at what's happened and stick our chests out. We're one cup game away from Wembley, we're no longer plagued by the thought of relegation as our destiny, and we're getting a squad together that looks as if, with a few more additions, it can offer us hope for next season.

Nigel, you, my son, deserve a huge round of applause from all of us, UTB

Agreed IIYB! What we have in Clough is a proper football manager, by that I mean a bloke who has been steeped in both sides of the beautiful game since he was a kid, and has probably learned a lot of what he knows from the very best.....his Dad.

It's not all about tactics and formations, it's about fitness levels, personal standards, togetherness and team spirit and the lads are now showing these traits in bucket loads.

I don't know about anybody else but I fully expected us to sneak a late goal last night, whereas for over a year I've expected us to concede late on. The team now has a will to win that should set up up well for next season, it's just a pity that Cloughy wasn't here to set us up for this season because I think we'd now be fighting it out with Wolves and Brentford for automatic.

UTB

 

[Silent Blade]

View attachment 7420

I am delighted with Clough turning our fortunes round but I think managers who get points in higher divisions should be higher up in the table. How about working out a ranking list based on getting more ranking points for getting points in higher divisions? Any experts?

Edit: John Nicholson was the secretary, not the manager

 

[Silent Blade]

I think you should also weigh it in terms of the opposition, so D1 points would be worth more than D2 points and so on

Fully agree. I should have read the whole thread before posting

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I am delighted with Clough turning our fortunes round but I think managers who get points in higher divisions should be higher up in the table. How about working out a ranking list based on getting more ranking points for getting points in higher divisions? Any experts?

Edit: John Nicholson was the secretary, not the manager

Adding some sort of ranking should also take in to account the number of games managed.

I've always thought Spackers was one of the best because he made me feel 10' tall when I walked out of The Lane but he was really untried compared to Harris, as is Clough.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I think you should also weigh it in terms of the opposition, so D1 points would be worth more than D2 points and so on

I am delighted with Clough turning our fortunes round but I think managers who get points in higher divisions should be higher up in the table. How about working out a ranking list based on getting more ranking points for getting points in higher divisions? Any experts?

I agree also but that level of detail isn't easily available on soccerbase.
Then there would be arguments about what level of weighting you would give the respective divisions.
My table just gives a rough and ready idea of the stats. We all know who the best managers were anyway.

 

[Kenilworth]

You can only beat what you have in front of you so no weighting required for me.
If you became the manager of the Blades when in the top flight then you would have inherited a better squad of players to work with so that factors it for me already.

If you do put a weighting on wins when at a lower division then you will need to make cup upsets hugely favourable - beating Prem teams and Champ teams when in the 3rd Division is a tremendous feat and not one emulated by many of that list of managers in previous posts.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I agree also but that level of detail isn't easily available on soccerbase.
Then there would be arguments about what level of weighting you would give the respective divisions.
My table just gives a rough and ready idea of the stats. We all know who the best managers were anyway.

I'm sure some weighting say against every 42 games (representing a season) could be worked out by someone?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

You can only beat what you have in front of you so no weighting required for me.
If you became the manager of the Blades when in the top flight then you would have inherited a better squad of players to work with so that factors it for me already.

If you do put a weighting on wins when at a lower division then you will need to make cup upsets hugely favourable - beating Prem teams and Champ teams when in the 3rd Division is a tremendous feat and not one emulated by many of that list of managers in previous posts.

Agree.

Is Moyes better than Clough cus he's managing a top prem side?

 

[Kenilworth]

Agree.

Is Moyes better than Clough cus he's managing a top prem side?

And by the same token is Weir not as bad as he only managed in the 3rd?

Nonsense.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

And by the same token is Weir not as bad as he only managed in the 3rd?

Nonsense.

If we can all agree that Weir was dross then we can all be happy

 

[bladesman3]

did anyone honestly think we'd get relegated?

Not out of the woods yet!

 

[itsinyerblood]

Not out of the woods yet!

As I've already commented on this I'll just add that the arithmetic only makes sense once we have enough points to put daylight between us and the relegation zone for the remainder of this season. That could happen soon, or it could go to the wire. As things stand we're in a good position, but a couple of poor results while those beneath us win their games and comments that suggest there never was a chance of relegation will come back to bite our arse.

Clough is well aware of this type of complacency and his post match comments have emphasised the need for everyone to focus and maintain standards.

 

[Pinchy]

Well I'm ruling out relegation right here, right now. We have enough quality, confidence and organisation to finish in the top half. There are at least twelve clubs who should be more worried than we are.

If you're even remotely anxious, just think of this:



There, that's better isn't it?

 

[itsinyerblood]

Well I'm ruling out relegation right here, right now. We have enough quality, confidence and organisation to finish in the top half. There are at least twelve clubs who should be more worried than we are.

If you're even remotely anxious, just think of this:

View attachment 7425

I tend to agree Pinchy, but the question that asked if anyone seriously thought we were in danger of relegation need only look back to that avalanche of posts all discussing the distinct possibility of relegation.

Like yourself, I think we've hit our low point, but I'm enough of a Blade to think that something might still disrupt this wonderful vibe we're all enjoying. I know, completely irrational, but then so's following the Blades, UTB

 

[Pinchy]

I tend to agree Pinchy, but the question that asked if anyone seriously thought we were in danger of relegation need only look back to that avalanche of posts all discussing the distinct possibility of relegation.

Like yourself, I think we've hit our low point, but I'm enough of a Blade to think that something might still disrupt this wonderful vibe we're all enjoying. I know, completely irrational, but then so's following the Blades, UTB

Yes mate. My slight worry is not relegation, but sky-high expectation levels for next season. Still, as long as that is reflected in the terrific level of support the lads are getting at the moment it can become a very positive self-fulfilling prophecy.

Let it flow!