Clarification on our midfield setup

[Bergen Blade]

There seems to be some confusion among some fans regarding how our midfield normally sets up. Some seem to think that we've usually played 4-4-1-1 under Clough with Scougall playing in the advanced midfield role, also referred to as "in the hole".

In reality we've usually played 4-5-1 with one central midfielder (up to now Doyle) playing deeper than the other two (last season Coady and Scougall). The latter two are being encouraged to go forward and into the opposition box when we win the ball.

This was also the way we started against Burton and Fenerbache, and it looks like it was the same yesterday. Wallace was in Doyle's position and Basham in Coady's, as shown by this screen shot:



When we signed Basham I thought he was going to replace Doyle in the deeper role, but Clough seems to view him as a direct replacement for Coady. It seems to be Wallace who will be taking on Doyle's role and pulling the strings from central midfield. I think Wallace will be a much better playmaker, but I'm unsure of his defensive qualities in that role.


By the looks of it yesterday, we changed things around after a while, probably due to the injuries, and then played 4-4-2 with Dimaio and Basham central, and Scougall wide left midfield.


The 4-5-1 worked great for us last season, though it remains to be seen if we can find an equally good balance with this season's personell.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I didn't go yesterday but if Scoogs played wide left then it won't work.
He is far too lightweight for that type of roll - he needs to be a free player as against one that is permanently marked.
As for Basham you are right - he seems to be a box to box player who seems to make late runs into the oppositions box.
If Wallace is the replacement for Doyle, then great, but as for defensive qualities - this modern thing of having of having a holding midfield player is over rated - is that what good defenders should do

 

[Bladesman]

Scoogs needs to be running through the middle.

"Straight through 118!"

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I didn't go yesterday but if Scoogs played wide left then it won't work.
He is far too lightweight for that type of roll - he needs to be a free player as against one that is permanently marked.
As for Basham you are right - he seems to be a box to box player who seems to make late runs into the oppositions box.
If Wallace is the replacement for Doyle, then great, but as for defensive qualities - this modern thing of having of having a holding midfield player is over rated - is that what good defenders should do

The holding defensive midfielder role isn't necessarily about doing what defenders do. Often it is about holding the shape of the team together after losing the ball. Playing 4-5-1 and having full-backs that push forward can often lead to centre backs getting split. There are other examples where shape needs maintaining and often the holding player will do this, as well as be the prompt for attacking sequences. I'll leave Bergen Blade to example this, but if you want to see probably the finest example, watch clips of Claude Makelele.

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

If you're playing one up front you tend to need some fairly quick and willing runners from midfield....probably 3 or 4 of them for adequate support. I'm comfortable with 4-1-4-1 provided we have that. Something like:-

Howard
Alcock Collins Butler Harris
Doyle
Campbell-Ryce Wallace Scougall Murphy
Baxter​

We have options. McGahey for Collins, Basham for Doyle, Flynn for Campbell-Ryce, Reed for Wallace, Porter or McNulty for Baxter all depending on the other personnel out on the pitch. Nice to see a bit of depth.

 

[Going up]

Patrick, Where eould you see Davies fit in? I see him as an essential grafter and deadball specialist and team player.

 

[ScoobBlade]

The best bit of this thread is the use of the "andy gray magic pen", take a bow son !

 

[HolmesfieldBlade]

We looked threatening from the flanks and the middle last season... Coady pulled a lot of strings in that central role and Murphy and Flynn looked very dangerous on the wings.

If Basham can be creative and thread some balls in from the centre we'll play some really good stuff again. I was really impressed with the 1-2s, patience and creative runs when we had the ball going forward centrally last campaign.

All-in-all can't wait to see our boys playing properly in the league. First time I've paid real attention to a pre-season campaign so it'll be great to see the season kick off!

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Patrick, Where eould you see Davies fit in? I see him as an essential grafter and deadball specialist and team player.

I like Davies but I see him as someone who can come off the bench to provide a threat from set pieces and to give us cover in wide positions, mainly full back.

Glad we signed him, gives us another option.

 

[Newbury Blade]

I've said it before ... the best we played all season, second half against Charlton, the formation was 4-6-0 once Baxter moved back a shade and the hapless Londoners didn't know who was attacking them, or where he was coming from.

Not proposing that for every game, mind.

 

[Bergen Blade]

The holding defensive midfielder role isn't necessarily about doing what defenders do. Often it is about holding the shape of the team together after losing the ball. Playing 4-5-1 and having full-backs that push forward can often lead to centre backs getting split. There are other examples where shape needs maintaining and often the holding player will do this, as well as be the prompt for attacking sequences. I'll leave Bergen Blade to example this, but if you want to see probably the finest example, watch clips of Claude Makelele.

Yes, the defensive midfielder enables other team members to go forward more. Even our centre halves went on forward runs last season. Clough wants all players to make attacking contributions, but balance need to be maintained, and the holding midfielder is key to that.

 

[Fazak]

Given Wallace's injury record at Tranmere and his record so far at United I have my doubts whether he is going to be match fit much before the end of August, never mind the start of the season.

 

[sheffielder]

Do we know if Baxter and wallace's injuries are serious?

 

[Bladesman]

I've said it before ... the best we played all season, second half against Charlton, the formation was 4-6-0 once Baxter moved back a shade and the hapless Londoners didn't know who was attacking them, or where he was coming from.

Not proposing that for every game, mind.

Very true.

That was a game Charlton had no clue who was actually attacking because they had pretty much all our midfield running at them. Not just our midfield they had Brayford to worry about as well.

 

[wizadry]

Patrick, Where eould you see Davies fit in? I see him as an essential grafter and deadball specialist and team player.

I can see Davies been used when we need to shove a bit of pace upfront,ie murphy or JCR,basically good cover just as Patrick said.

 

[Going up]

Personally, I see Davies as a player who can score goals in both the Championship and obviously L1. Whether from set pieces, penalties or in front of goal, he doesn't usually flap at shots.
Seeing that goal scoring will be essential this year, I feel he may just have a bigger role. Especially with the new acquisition, he will be useful for sending crosses in.
I just don't know where he fits in best. It is a good problem to have as we seem to have some depth this year.

 

[HeCanDoMagic]

Do we know if Baxter and wallace's injuries are serious?

NC said all players were told to come off at the slightest sign of a niggle.

Sounded more precautionary, however with Wallace's injury record...

 

[wizadry]

Personally, I see Davies as a player who can score goals in both the Championship and obviously L1. Whether from set pieces, penalties or in front of goal, he doesn't usually flap at shots.
Seeing that goal scoring will be essential this year, I feel he may just have a bigger role. Especially with the new acquisition, he will be useful for sending crosses in.
I just don't know where he fits in best. It is a good problem to have as we seem to have some depth this year.

I was speaking to someone about davies and they said he used to be a right fitness freak,but then had a few issues,he then said if he gets it back he will be quality for us

this was in April and i'll stick by what he said,he is a very good friend of his.

I didn't mean that all he would be is cover,going up.I meant he would be great cover for a numerous of positions,i should have stated this.There is no doubt,now he is back to somewhere near his peak fitness,which is very high by the way,he will be a key member of our squad.

 

[leebaxters45mins]

Does anybody believe Davies could be used in central midfield, possibly in Doyle's role? He has an engine (albeit no great pace), can pick a pass, and he can score and create goals from dead ball situations exceptionally well for a League 1 player, he's possibly worth a goal every 2/3 games. I'm starting to wonder whether he's a little too important to leave out.

 

[Going up]

I see Wizadry, that's probably correct. He was notorious for being the fit guy at Derby during the pre seasons.

Perhaps you are on to something leebaxter...he has been tried everywhere else successfully and been good cover.lol. He's not afraid to crunch a tackle when needed either.

 

[wizadry]

Does anybody believe Davies could be used in central midfield, possibly in Doyle's role? He has an engine (albeit no great pace), can pick a pass, and he can score and create goals from dead ball situations exceptionally well for a League 1 player, he's possibly worth a goal every 2/3 games. I'm starting to wonder whether he's a little too important to leave out.

Good question lee,i think Davies could play in allmost any position you put him in,he's that kind of footballer,there is one thing for sure, were going to see a lot of him this season imo in a lot of different positions.

As for him playing in Doyle's role, why not is what i say.All Doyle does is keep our shape,he is very limited with his passing and doesn't get anywhere near a person to tackle him,so apart from him keeping our shape which you can get allmost anybody to do,he isn't needed imo.As for Davies he is arguably quicker,albeit not by much,can pass as you rightly say and has a tremendous engine again as you rightly say.So i'd say,yes,all the evidence is there to say he can play instead of Doyle,whether or not he does though is another story.

It would certainly get him in the first xi which is what a lot of blades want to see,just for his deadball situations alone if for nothing else.