Burton promotion

[OllyBlade]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32380363

Meanwhile, Brewers chairman Ben Robinson paid tribute to some of the club's previous managers for putting Hasselbaink in a position to succeed.

"Those 10 years that Nigel Clough gave this club, he set the foundations and this is one big reason why we're here," he said.

I'm not posting this with any pro-Clough agenda, before anyone gets wound up. But people seem to use his record at Burton against him, as if what he achieved was unspectacular. Worth pointing out that as this club makes history (first time they will ever play in the 3rd division), the chairman is going back 6 years to cite Clough's influence on what they are achieving now.

This season has been tremendously disappointing but the board aren't facing a simple decision, even if we don't go up.

 

[HeCanDoMagic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32380363



I'm not posting this with any pro-Clough agenda, before anyone gets wound up. But people seem to use his record at Burton against him, as if what he achieved was unspectacular. Worth pointing out that as this club makes history (first time they will ever play in the 3rd division), the chairman is going back 6 years to cite Clough's influence on what they are achieving now.

This season has been tremendously disappointing but the board aren't facing a simple decision, even if we don't go up.

Im firmly in limbo over Clough, neither a Clough slasher or clapper (maybe Im a Slapper?), but I listen to people make mention of the foundations her laid at Derby and Burton but wonder whether that is relevant to the position he is at SUFC?

Derby were in a right financial state and Burton were several levels below Conference level I believe - so understandably needed stabilty and a framework for achieveing their goals.

At SUFC he inherited a decent bunch of players, had the best resources for League 1 instantly available and was tasked with one single objective - promotion.

I, and a majority of fans, don't want a steady rise from this league or to be able to sit here in 10 years thinking what great foundation work was laid. I want what this club should easily be able to achieve and that's automatic promotion. For the money he's had he should have been able to hand pick the perfect promotion team - whether he's done that we'll only know after our play-off campaign.

 

[Torrix1889]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32380363



I'm not posting this with any pro-Clough agenda, before anyone gets wound up. But people seem to use his record at Burton against him, as if what he achieved was unspectacular. Worth pointing out that as this club makes history (first time they will ever play in the 3rd division), the chairman is going back 6 years to cite Clough's influence on what they are achieving now.

This season has been tremendously disappointing but the board aren't facing a simple decision, even if we don't go up.

I'm afraid if we don't go up the Board are facing a simple decision.....no promotion, negative football, failure to address 2 key positions = abject failure. Without sounding elitist you can't compare Burton and Sheffield United, it's like comparing chalk and cheese, hugely different history and expectation levels.....the sad reality is we will probably be just 1 division apart.

I caught a bit of P&G on Saturday after the game and it was said that during the week Clough tried to remind everyone on the eve of his 100th game where we were when he took over, as though he had done a sterling job, a comment that was met with howls of derision.

I personally never wanted Clough in the first place so OK, I'm not a fan but regardless, if we don't go up, he has to go.

 

[secretchief]

On the contrary, it makes it easier. If the foundations are now so solid, let's get someone in capable of using them optimally!

 

[Revolution]

One interesting thing about Clough's record is of course that this is the first time he has been involved in a football league playoff race. Derby were never close to the playoffs this late in the season, and Burton's promotions were a lot further down the pyramid.

Hasselbaink has done very well this year. Good luck to him and to them (until they beat us next year).

 

[BushBlade]

Im firmly in limbo over Clough, neither a Clough slasher or clapper (maybe Im a Slapper?), but I listen to people make mention of the foundations her laid at Derby and Burton but wonder whether that is relevant to the position he is at SUFC?

Derby were in a right financial state and Burton were several levels below Conference level I believe - so understandably needed stabilty and a framework for achieveing their goals.

At SUFC he inherited a decent bunch of players, had the best resources for League 1 instantly available and was tasked with one single objective - promotion.

I, and a majority of fans, don't want a steady rise from this league or to be able to sit here in 10 years thinking what great foundation work was laid. I want what this club should easily be able to achieve and that's automatic promotion. For the money he's had he should have been able to hand pick the perfect promotion team - whether he's done that we'll only know after our play-off campaign.

I'm not convinced we were in such a good state when Clough took over. We didn't have a first team capable of challenging for promotion and not much of a squad. If it wasn't for McCabe being willing and able to prop us up financially we would have gone into admin.

However, I get your point. The Prince's arrival was supposed to have changed things and I think the brief Weir was originally given, to rebuild the club, has changed to 'just get us up'. Perhaps Clough is not the man for that. Maybe he'd be better at a mid table club; where immediate promotion is neither required or expected, where he is given time to slowly assemble the squad and the structure of the club.

I don't mind if Clough is given another year as I think he'd stand a decent chance of getting us up, I think he's probably capable of finishing the job. I also think that he left his other two clubs in a decent state so he's reasonably trustworthy in that respect.

Usually, a manager who saves a club from relegation is given a bit of time, given a season to implement his ideas before being expected to succeed. We were pretty shit under Porterfield in our first season back in div 3 but he sorted it out the next season and we scraped up (and he spent, relatively speaking, a shitload). The idea that we won't improve further under Clough is a bit daft in my opinion, and not supported by any evidence.

It's difficult to criticise those who are fed up though, it's not been a great season and, at times, difficult to watch. When you see someone like Sherwood come in at Villa and turn them round like he has, obviously people think 'why can't we do that?' But changing managers is as big a lottery as the playoffs. There's no science or logic to it, even if you maximise your chances by picking someone with a proven track record. Look at who's been successful in this league recently. How many of those would have depressed us if they'd been linked with us?

 

[wizadry]

Until Clough does anything of note he will always be questioned, i've been baffled this season on many occasions and until he does what we set out to do this season then the jury will still be out. I hope he does it and proves to everyone including me that he does have what it takes, only time will tell.

I don't think Clough will want the tag of laying the foundations all his managerial life, he will want a league promotion on his cv and i think he's trying his damn hardest but is ultimately struggling with the pressure, again, we will soon find out. Please take us out of this league ffs.

 

[sitwell]

I will always remember Rotherham away last year and Hartlepool at home. If you think things are bad now it was incredibly bad then. That's 18 months ago ,and we are still in a rebuilding period ,just wish people would have patience ,not only with Clough but also some players who are young lads still settling in. 18 months is no time at all in the grand scheme of things ,personally I think getting rid of Clough would be an unmitigated disaster.

 

[wizadry]

personally I think getting rid of Clough would be an unmitigated disaster.

I know this is just your view sitters and i don't like the idea of getting rid of managers too soon either but upto now there isn't really any evidence at all to suggest it would be an unmitigated disaster if Clough was unfortunately given the sack. As i say in my post above, what has he achieved so far of any recognition for any league side? We can't stay in this league forever and that's what the evidence suggests will happen, i really hope i'm wrong.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Im firmly in limbo over Clough, neither a Clough slasher or clapper (maybe Im a Slapper?), but I listen to people make mention of the foundations her laid at Derby and Burton but wonder whether that is relevant to the position he is at SUFC?

Derby were in a right financial state and Burton were several levels below Conference level I believe - so understandably needed stabilty and a framework for achieveing their goals.

At SUFC he inherited a decent bunch of players, had the best resources for League 1 instantly available and was tasked with one single objective - promotion.

I, and a majority of fans, don't want a steady rise from this league or to be able to sit here in 10 years thinking what great foundation work was laid. I want what this club should easily be able to achieve and that's automatic promotion. For the money he's had he should have been able to hand pick the perfect promotion team - whether he's done that we'll only know after our play-off campaign.

He wasn't tasked with one objective though. Phipps has said on a number of occasions that they are taking a long term view eg with the Academy.

There are also other objectives, though I do imagine promotion before the next 125 years are up is somewhere in there.

 

[Grecian2000]

I will always remember Rotherham away last year and Hartlepool at home. If you think things are bad now it was incredibly bad then. That's 18 months ago ,and we are still in a rebuilding period ,just wish people would have patience ,not only with Clough but also some players who are young lads still settling in. 18 months is no time at all in the grand scheme of things ,personally I think getting rid of Clough would be an unmitigated disaster.

Couldn't agree more. From where he started it's a huge step forward.

The problem is the back end of last season being so good and some things that have happened this that are almost unexplainable.

I put on a thread a couple of months ago that last seasons upturn was built on straw, in that three key players were gone by the start of this season. Whoever's fault that was (Clough or board or both) it is a problem Clough is feeling the heat for now.
As for this season, the performances have been poor on too many occasions and team selection bizarre as often as not. Our CB situation (or lack of) that can end up with all four members of the back four being played out of position is entirely of our own making and is causing a lot of the problems.

Whilst I wouldn't want him sacked I can certainly see why a lot would (usually on my way home from BDTBL when I've been annoyed or bored for large chunks of the afternoon).

 

[Grecian2000]

As i say in my post above, what has he achieved so far of any recognition for any league side? We can't stay in this league forever and that's what the evidence suggests will happen, i really hope i'm wrong.

Thing is Wiz, surely that last 5 months of last season showed enough to give him more than 1 full season.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I'm not convinced we were in such a good state when Clough took over. We didn't have a first team capable of challenging for promotion and not much of a squad. If it wasn't for McCabe being willing and able to prop us up financially we would have gone into admin.

However, I get your point. The Prince's arrival was supposed to have changed things and I think the brief Weir was originally given, to rebuild the club, has changed to 'just get us up'. Perhaps Clough is not the man for that. Maybe he'd be better at a mid table club; where immediate promotion is neither required or expected, where he is given time to slowly assemble the squad and the structure of the club.

I don't mind if Clough is given another year as I think he'd stand a decent chance of getting us up, I think he's probably capable of finishing the job. I also think that he left his other two clubs in a decent state so he's reasonably trustworthy in that respect.

Usually, a manager who saves a club from relegation is given a bit of time, given a season to implement his ideas before being expected to succeed. We were pretty shit under Porterfield in our first season back in div 3 but he sorted it out the next season and we scraped up (and he spent, relatively speaking, a shitload). The idea that we won't improve further under Clough is a bit daft in my opinion, and not supported by any evidence.

It's difficult to criticise those who are fed up though, it's not been a great season and, at times, difficult to watch. When you see someone like Sherwood come in at Villa and turn them round like he has, obviously people think 'why can't we do that?' But changing managers is as big a lottery as the playoffs. There's no science or logic to it, even if you maximise your chances by picking someone with a proven track record. Look at who's been successful in this league recently. How many of those would have depressed us if they'd been linked with us?

Good post.

Re Sherwood: a Division 1 player-pundit was on R5 discussing this the other day. He said he'd like to see Sherwood given a long run at a club to see if he could build something substantial rather than perform short term acts. He was pretty clear these are different skills.

 

[wizadry]

Thing is Wiz, surely that last 5 months of last season showed enough to give him more than 1 full season.

I'm more than willing to myself but i know loads that aren't and we all know what happens when the fans speak out.

 

[blader]

I will always remember Rotherham away last year and Hartlepool at home. If you think things are bad now it was incredibly bad then. That's 18 months ago ,and we are still in a rebuilding period ,just wish people would have patience ,not only with Clough but also some players who are young lads still settling in. 18 months is no time at all in the grand scheme of things ,personally I think getting rid of Clough would be an unmitigated disaster.

Not intending this to be an arsey response, but how is it any different to Brisol City? They had an even worse season than us last year, but haven't had a 'rebuilding period' like we are supposedly having. Sounds like an easy get out to me. Don't think there's any valid reason we shouldn't have pissed the league this season IMO

 

[BushBlade]

Good post.

Re Sherwood: a Division 1 player-pundit was on R5 discussing this the other day. He said he'd like to see Sherwood given a long run at a club to see if he could build something substantial rather than perform short term acts. He was pretty clear these are different skills.

It's the difference between being a good coach or a good manager.

 

[Bladebri]

Better the devil you know, that's my view.

 

[zablade]

I will always remember Rotherham away last year and Hartlepool at home. If you think things are bad now it was incredibly bad then. That's 18 months ago ,and we are still in a rebuilding period ,just wish people would have patience ,not only with Clough but also some players who are young lads still settling in. 18 months is no time at all in the grand scheme of things ,personally I think getting rid of Clough would be an unmitigated disaster.

How long would you be willing to give him to win promotion though another season? Two? Three? I would be 100%,in agreement with you about long term stability and building if we were in The Championship which has been our main home during the majority of my life

I have been a season ticket holder for nearly 30 years and I have not renewed for next season not soley because of the manager (but the dire football we have played the majority of this season at home has been a part of it my decision) but I am in my 40's now I don't want to be sat watching lower league football for the better part of the next decade.

If we don't scrape up through the play off this season I can only see another season similar next year and another after that.

It's not Clough's fault we have been down here five years but any manager in charge of a club our size at this level has to produce results quickly harsh I know but true and I am not sure he quite understands that.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

It's the difference between being a good coach or a good manager.

Disagree. It's the difference between being good in the short term and good in the long term. Of course some might be both.

 

[Kenilworth]

Look forward to seeing the fixture list for 2015-16 and when our two games vs Burton will be



.... Strewth

 

[blade too long]

its also a great deal to do with resourses
Clough battled immense debt at Derby , and had to take a very long term course , which he was robbed of seeing coming to fruition after he had decontaminated the poison ground they were on and had put in the foundations and superstructure , all built on a premise of continually having to cut the wage bill year on year

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Thing is Wiz, surely that last 5 months of last season showed enough to give him more than 1 full season.

Agree . Also if Bristol City had not raised the bar so high this season , IMO , i don't think we would be discussing half of the Clough related issues that we do . ( Phipps i am sure , would have had no need for his Facebook message.)

Blame Bristol City , for making us demanding grater expectations from the board , Clough and players.

Clough is going to have to answer the board with a boat load of left over programmes down his trousers , covering his back side next month , so its concentrate on the play offs for Clough , players and fans until we have tits up , or a lot of relief.

To put it politely , it has been a little bit of a fuck up , in one way or another , this season .

UTB

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

Look forward to seeing the fixture list for 2015-16 and when our two games vs Burton will be



.... Strewth

I know what you mean Kenilworth but not much different to seeing Fleetwood on the fixture list this season.

 

[robbiez666]

The team this season has been the least stable I've seen it. I honestly think, like Derby, another manager could come in and we'd be a completely different side.

He's brought in some good players, but more who have not worked for one reason or another. I don;t think I've ever seen a manager at the Lane in a position to bring in so many players. Also, with the ability to terminate contracts,

I just worry that, even if we do go up, it would just be several seasons of negative and boring football where we'd finish somewhere between mid table and just above the drop.

I've also seen little in terms of our youth development. Reed aside. If anything, this huge squad have pushed them further down the food chain.

 

[bladesmanluke]

I won't be sad if Clough gets the sack, but I also won't be sad if he's here for another season

 

[Bladesway]

I will always remember Rotherham away last year and Hartlepool at home. If you think things are bad now it was incredibly bad then. That's 18 months ago ,and we are still in a rebuilding period ,just wish people would have patience ,not only with Clough but also some players who are young lads still settling in. 18 months is no time at all in the grand scheme of things ,personally I think getting rid of Clough would be an unmitigated disaster.

Think it often gets overlooked where we were only last season. Looking nailed on for relegation a team previously challenging for promotion was fast disappearing down the toilet to League 2. For whatever his failings are Clough took that team, added little to it and made it compete. His problem was he was too successful in some ways. Had we finished 14th last season this season would have been seen as a step forward. Problem is we pushed to the edge of the play offs and got to a cup semi. Many thought this season we would get promoted a piece of piss.

However Clough has had significant support from the board which has added to the expectation. We aren't the fluid, attacking side we became last season. Something isn't working. This needs to be addressed.

I would give him into next season but football is an unforgiving business and apparently one whole season is enough for some. I fear he will go this summer should we not get promoted and we will be back where we were early last season.

 

[grafikhaus]

It's also a great deal to do with resources.
Clough battled immense debt at Derby , and had to take a very long term course , which he was robbed of seeing coming to fruition after he had decontaminated the poison ground they were on and had put in the foundations and superstructure , all built on a premise of continually having to cut the wage bill year on year

So now he's got the resources. No more excuses.

 

[sitwell]

Not intending this to be an arsey response, but how is it any different to Brisol City? They had an even worse season than us last year, but haven't had a 'rebuilding period' like we are supposedly having. Sounds like an easy get out to me. Don't think there's any valid reason we shouldn't have pissed the league this season IMO

Bristol City have had an exceptional season which to be fair to you ,you predicted at the start of the season. Sometimes things just fall into place ,it will be interesting t see if they can carry this on. The main difference is consistency ,they have had it all season ,whereas we are sporadic with form ,don't forget we beat them at their place. I do think Clough is putting in a long term plan and laying foundations ,also introducing young players into the side. I have said before I think its the spine which has been the problem ,he wanted Howard-Maguire-Wallace-Ogrady ,but due to different factors ended up with a coccyx ,and that's it. With patience I am convinced he will produce.

 

[Revolution]

Bristol City have had an exceptional season which to be fair to you ,you predicted at the start of the season. Sometimes things just fall into place ,it will be interesting t see if they can carry this on. The main difference is consistency ,they have had it all season ,whereas we are sporadic with form ,don't forget we beat them at their place. I do think Clough is putting in a long term plan and laying foundations ,also introducing young players into the side. I have said before I think its the spine which has been the problem ,he wanted Howard-Maguire-Wallace-Ogrady ,but due to different factors ended up with a coccyx ,and that's it. With patience I am convinced he will produce.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, you are correct, wouldn't the first thing you do in a long term plan be to sort out the spine of the team and add your scrappy midget midfielders/luxury players with poor injury records etc once you've sorted the spine out?

The point being, if it's a long term plan, it's an extremely poorely executed one.

Plus I call shennanigans on this long term plan stuff. With 1 year contracts so common and so much player movement, and the possibility of signing players of all shapes and sizes from just about anywhere, and the number of good loanees from the PL available, anyone in L1 with good funding and a good scouting network and good coaches and managers can build a team from scratch any close season. Anyone who thinks it has to be a multi year project hasn't been paying attention the last 20 years.

Anyway, why I am telling you this? You should know. Bassett built our 1989 promotion side in much the same way.

 

[BushBlade]

Disagree. It's the difference between being good in the short term and good in the long term. Of course some might be both.

Well, with the usual caveats and exceptions, all manager are good coaches. The point I'm making is that being a good coach alone is not enough to be a good manager. There is more to management than just coaching.
When a new person comes into a club, particularly after the JTW has closed or if there's no money in the pot, his job is essentially a coaching job. Long term, it is a management job which includes things such as long term motivation of players and, very importantly, recruitment.

A manager who succeeds long term tend to be good at all aspects of the job (or, these days, might be supported by a competent DoF) whereas a manager who only succeeds in the short term tends to be good at the coaching side only.