Brentford and 'passing football'

[super_pig]

Hoofwaffe propaganda.

Hoofwaffe.. that is absolute quality mate.. laughed out loud at that one..

 

[Bergen Blade]

Amazing. Truly amazing. We put up with mind-numbing, aimless, ugly hoof for decades. Yet suffer one defeat and all thoughts of playing the game properly (the way all successful teams play and what all professionals call the 'right way') disappear in a mindless panic spread by sinister Hoofwaffe propaganda.

Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

Keep playing football, Davey. We're not all as prehistoric as you might think. Happily, I'm sure you don't read of any of this rubbish, anyway.

Gerritintbox.

The photo below shows one of our players with the option of passing through to a teammate running in behind the opposition midfield. He didn't take up that option, he passed it backwards to a teammate.

The situation illustrates a difference between two football philosophies.

• One where the team takes some risks with their passing, the players will attempt difficult, ambitious passes because it increases the chance of creating chances.
• The other where it's all about keeping possession and keeping the ball within the team. They will slowly build attacks and hope to find a good shooting chance.

I believe a lot of fans/posters are concerned that the team is not good enough for the latter philosophy. It does not mean they want us to play continual long ball.

 

[alcoblade]

I believe a lot of fans/posters are concerned that the team is not good enough for the latter philosophy. It does not mean they want us to play continual long ball.

Amen to that!
(although it looks like the forward player might have been Flynn?Perhaps the fullback is concerned the wind is blowing against him )

UTB

 

[JohnDenver]

The situation illustrates a difference between two football philosophies.

You could argue that, but then it could be because the players are only told to risk losing possession in the final third, or when they know they have cover behind them. We can't see very much of what's going on behind Williams there. One bad pass might have led to us being outnumbered at the back.

 

[Bergen Blade]

You could argue that, but then it could be because the players are only told to risk losing possession in the final third, or when they know they have cover behind them. We can't see very much of what's going on behind Williams there. One bad pass might have led to us being outnumbered at the back.

You describe traits that are typical for Warnock and Blackwell's philosophies. Warnock, especially, didn't mind passing, but he wanted it to be done in the final third.

 

[Reedy1889]

The photo below shows one of our players with the option of passing through to a teammate running in behind the opposition midfield. He didn't take up that option, he passed it backwards to a teammate.

The situation illustrates a difference between two football philosophies.

• One where the team takes some risks with their passing, the players will attempt difficult, ambitious passes because it increases the chance of creating chances.
• The other where it's all about keeping possession and keeping the ball within the team. They will slowly build attacks and hope to find a good shooting chance.

I believe a lot of fans/posters are concerned that the team is not good enough for the latter philosophy. It does not mean they want us to play continual long ball.

Looking at the photo, had Williams played the ball through to the oncoming midfielder he'd have to do so with his 'weaker' foot or risk switching onto his left peg which by then the opposition player would have won the ball, so passing backwards in that situation isn't all that bad of an option really.

 

[God]

You could argue that, but then it could be because the players are only told to risk losing possession in the final third, or when they know they have cover behind them. We can't see very much of what's going on behind Williams there. One bad pass might have led to us being outnumbered at the back.

Already told him as much on another thread but he aint having none of it. We've agreed to disagree but he's banging on to anyone that will listen.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Looking at the photo, had Williams played the ball through to the oncoming midfielder he'd have to do so with his 'weaker' foot or risk switching onto his left peg which by then the opposition player would have won the ball, so passing backwards in that situation isn't all that bad of an option really.

Some people will say it is the right option, others will say it's the wrong option. It depends on your football philosophy.

 

[alcoblade]

Looking at the photo, had Williams played the ball through to the oncoming midfielder he'd have to do so with his 'weaker' foot or risk switching onto his left peg which by then the opposition player would have won the ball, so passing backwards in that situation isn't all that bad of an option really.

But that's the point - because our players are generally shite, we have to be realistic about the game they can play.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

We can't see very much of what's going on behind Williams there.

We can see what's been going on for the last season, and the last 2 matches. Bergen's set is typical of this. Clearly Weir will see it, and adapt the best way he can.

UTB

 

[Bergen Blade]

Already told him as much on another thread but he aint having none of it. We've agreed to disagree but he's banging on to anyone that will listen.

Apologies if I upset you in the other thread.

I picked the photo in this thread to show that two different football philosophies may encourage two different passing options for the player on the ball, with neither necessarily implying "hoofball".

 

[God]

Some people will say it is the right option, others will say it's the wrong option. It depends on your football philosophy.

Its bugger all to do with philosophy its to do with how good a footballer the player is. Knowing when to pick a pass and when NOT to pick a pass.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Its bugger all to do with philosophy its to do with how good a footballer the player is. Knowing when to pick a pass and when NOT to pick a pass.

Your football philosophy is obviously that the team is better off if Williams plays it backwards, keeps possession, in that situation.

My football philosophy is that Williams (even him) should try finding Flynn in that situation, whether it is with his left or right foot. I think the gain of a successfull pass makes it worth "taking the risk".

 

[God]

Apologies if I upset you in the other thread.

I picked the photo in this thread to show that two different football philosophies may encourage two different passing options for the player on the ball, with neither necessarily implying "hoofball".

No reason to apologise Bergen, I'm not upset. Its only a game

The problem with the photos is that although you are using them for demonstratative purposes only. Its difficult to look at them and not think 'no I wouldnt have passed it either' . Maybe some different examples might indicate your point better.

 

[alcoblade]

No reason to apologise Bergen, I'm not upset. Its only a game

Maybe some different examples might indicate your point better.

Can I refer you to a full season, just passed?



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[silverfox]

Your football philosophy is obviously that the team is better off if Williams plays it backwards, keeps possession, in that situation.

My football philosophy is that Williams (even him) should try finding Flynn in that situation, whether it is with his left or right foot. I think the gain of a successfull pass makes it worth "taking the risk".

With all due respect.....what if the player is not good enough to see the pass and thought his only option was to pass back???

No matter how you think the game should be played it does rely on the players seeing the "picture".

By "picture" I mean instantly being able to see all his options of a pass.

 

[God]

Your football philosophy is obviously that the team is better off if Williams plays it backwards, keeps possession, in that situation.

My football philosophy is that Williams (even him) should try finding Flynn in that situation, whether it is with his left or right foot. I think the gain of a successfull pass makes it worth "taking the risk".

Even when the pass has been spotted and is likely to be cut out and Williams caught out of position? Thats called suicide.

 

[alcoblade]

With all due respect.....what if the player is not good enough to see the pass and thought his only option was to pass back???

No matter how you think the game should be played it does rely on the players seeing the "picture".

By "picture" I mean instantly being able to see all his options of a pass.

The problem is that Bergen's example isn't isolated. We have lots of players who aren't comfortable taking risks with the ball, either through fear or lack of ability. My concern is the latter - and if that's right then we have to seriously consider the style of football we play. We saw it throughout last season, and in 2 out of 3 games this.

I am expecting accusations of hoofwaffe shortly. But I firmly believe there's a few more options to explore.

UTB

 

[Bergen Blade]

With all due respect.....what if the player is not good enough to see the pass and thought his only option was to pass back???

No matter how you think the game should be played it does rely on the players seeing the "picture".

By "picture" I mean instantly being able to see all his options of a pass.

That may be an argument for trying to replace the player. It does not change what I want a left back to do (and what I want a left back to be able to do) in that situation, i.e. the football philosophy stays the same.

 

[Foxy]

It's also a lot easier to play football on Bladesplayer a few days after the split second decision the footballer made

The problem is that Bergen's example isn't isolated. We have lots of players who aren't comfortable taking risks with the ball, either through fear or lack of ability.

We've had long periods of seasons with a complete lack of movement and without anyone willing to make space for themselves. I'd hope that as they get used to a few taking a bit of responsibility and playing differently, they'll get better at picking out those passes.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Even when the pass has been spotted and is likely to be cut out and Williams caught out of position?

Obviously I don't agree with that interpretation.

 

[God]

Can I refer you to a full season, just passed?



UTB

You could. But none spring to mind as we were that piss poor in the last third. I'm amazed Bergs actually found a pic of Flynn busting a gut to run into space behind the oppositions defence. Frame that one !

 

[alcoblade]

You could. But none spring to mind as we were that piss poor in the last third. I'm amazed Bergs actually found a pic of Flynn busting a gut to run into space behind the oppositions defence. Frame that one !

Agreed about Flynn fella..

We must be at crossed purposes over Bergen's point though. To me he's showing an example of where there's an attacking but risky forward pass, or a safe but dull and game sapping backwards one. We took option 2 on 9 out of 10 occasions last season, and it makes this passing style mind numbingly boring to watch, and completely ineffective.

UTB

 

[Bergen Blade]

It's also a lot easier to play football on Bladesplayer a few days after the split second decision the footballer made
.

I know that.

 

[alcoblade]

We've had long periods of seasons with a complete lack of movement and without anyone willing to make space for themselves. I'd hope that as they get used to a few taking a bit of responsibility and playing differently, they'll get better at picking out those passes.

Perhaps so Foxy, and let's hope so. However, as SF inputs above;

"With all due respect.....what if the player is not good enough to see the pass and thought his only option was to pass back???"

What IF the players aren't good enough. Williams and Flynn definitely aren't. Bergen's point holds firm as far as I'm concerned.

UTB

 

[God]

It's also a lot easier to play football on Bladesplayer a few days after the split second decision the footballer made



We've had long periods of seasons with a complete lack of movement and without anyone willing to make space for themselves. I'd hope that as they get used to a few taking a bit of responsibility and playing differently, they'll get better at picking out those passes.

Ah movement. Thats another quandary for us. We just don't have the players playing at the moment that have a clue about movement and creating space. I say at the moment because I think Miller is possibly an exception.

 

[JohnDenver]

You describe traits that are typical for Warnock and Blackwell's philosophies. Warnock, especially, didn't mind passing, but he wanted it to be done in the final third.

Again, that's very true, but a team can also play possession football while choosing to weight their risk-taking heavily to the final third.

I don't disagree with you, but it's a shame that the example is of our worst player choosing to keep it simple.

 

[God]

Agreed about Flynn fella..

We must be at crossed purposes over Bergen's point though. To me he's showing an example of where there's an attacking but risky forward pass, or a safe but dull and game sapping backwards one. We took option 2 on 9 out of 10 occasions last season, and it makes this passing style mind numbingly boring to watch, and completely ineffective.

UTB

Yeah I can see his point alco. They'd be no one happier than me to see defence splitting passes like Bergs is suggesting. I'd get a reight fatty on watching that. All I'm saying is that in those examples I can see why Williams didn't go for it.

 

[alcoblade]

I don't disagree with you, but it's a shame that the example is of our worst player choosing to keep it simple.

It's been happening all over the pitch for a long time, and we've still got the disease. The question shouldn't be (IMHO) about Bergen's example being a bad one, but about what we do to stop it being the norm.

So for me, in this case, it would be to not play Flynn again, arguably the same with Williams, but if you're stuck with this quality your fullback should go more direct. I can't think of any style that will accommodate Flynn, unless it's with Fries.



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[JohnDenver]

It's been happening all over the pitch for a long time, and we've still got the disease. The question shouldn't be (IMHO) about Bergen's example being a bad one, but about what we do to stop it being the norm.

So for me, in this case, it would be to not play Flynn again, arguably the same with Williams, but if you're stuck with this quality your fullback should go more direct. I can't think of any style that will accommodate Flynn, unless it's with Fries.



UTB

I agree crap footballers at fullback will seriously cramp our effectiveness in this system. It's clear we need replacements in various positions, but I'm happy with what we're working towards.

Let's not forget how good we were in the first game. The signs of hope are there, but we need to be realistic based on the quality of squad Weir inherited.