Biggest Takeaway - Faster players!

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Not here to discuss the semantics as I'm fully aware we've had a number of games in succession and pretty much the same XI since the break...

However, the first hour tonight reminded me of Season 2 in the PL where ever team seemed to have faster, fitter, stronger more agile players than us. Gave me a premonition of what next year could look like... What didn't help was seeing Brentford doing something similar to Liverpool.

Food for thought for Hecky and Tom Little as that's one area that we're still needing a lot of work..m

 

[Houston_Blade]

I think the difference that McAtee and Jebbo made tonight probably makes your point valid

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Absolutely. A spine of Egan, Norwood, Sharp - although fine at Championship level - has me anxious about next season (if/when we are promoted)... Watching Brentford out hustle Liverpool for 90mins was on a level I've not seen before...

 

[HighfieldBlade]

Watching McAtee accelerating and gliding past QPR defenders for fun was magnificent.

 

[DifferentClass]

Don't talk about big takeaways, Mousset might want to come back!

 

[nopigfansintown]

However, the first hour tonight reminded me of Season 2 in the PL where ever team seemed to have faster, fitter, stronger more agile players than us. Gave me a premonition of what next year could look like... What didn't help was seeing Brentford doing something similar to Liverpool.

Food for thought for Hecky and Tom Little as that's one area that we're still needing a lot of work..m

.Sharp looked his age but this was accentuated by the lack of legs around him. Hecky took a lot of risks tonight on Berge, Stevens (enforced), Clark, Sharp, Anel. It was ironic that our fresh legs (Doyle) had a total nightmare. I couldn't believe that Bash played no part even after 45 minutes of being unable to pass the ball into midfield. Berge was shot but kept going.

Pre kick off I was worried about Chair and Willock against our tired bodies, and that we'd rack up a shit ton more injuries. Happy to get out with only one. Credit to Stevens who.played really well vs Willock. The Chair vs Baldock/ Berge went as expected. Great cameos from the likes of Mcattee and Jebbo. Robbo did well too. All in all a result I'd have been delighted with before the game.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

.Sharp looked his age but this was accentuated by the lack of legs around him. Hecky took a lot of risks tonight on Berge, Stevens (enforced), Clark, Sharp, Anel. It was ironic that our fresh legs (Doyle) had a total nightmare. I couldn't believe that Bash played no part even after 45 minutes of being unable to pass the ball into midfield. Berge was shot but kept going.

Pre kick off I was worried about Chair and Willock against our tired bodies, and that we'd rack up a shit ton more injuries. Happy to get out with only one. Credit to Stevens who.played really well vs Willock. The Chair vs Baldock/ Berge went as expected. Great cameos from the likes of Mcattee and Jebbo. Robbo did well too. All in all a result I'd have been delighted with before the game.

Couldn't agree more. They matched up well with fast, agile players against all our old-timers. Norwood looked like the PL Norwood, where he spent most of his time alongside Egan and in a tizz at all the movement around him. In the first half especially we couldn't get close to them in midfield... Scary...

 

[nopigfansintown]

The high press was completely absent which continually led to overloads in the middle. The midfield looked leggy so they were often straight into the backline bypassing the midfield. In possession we couldn't play out due to their press and, in my view, a fatigued Anel and Clark (Anel's best match since injury/illness in the ball carrying/overloading respect was vs Blackpool). Due to this we were often whacking long balls up to Sharp and Ndiaye as we couldn't pass through the thirds. Our best patch first half came when Ndiaye would turn a hoof or knock into the channel into a good ball. Sharp was removed from the game until the latter stages when we could pass him the ball.

They had the pace to expose our inadequacies, particularly in the middle and their left

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

The high press was completely absent which continually led to overloads in the middle. The midfield looked leggy so they were often straight into the backline bypassing the midfield. In possession we couldn't play out due to their press and, in my view, a fatigued Anel and Clark (Anel's best match since injury/illness in the ball carrying/overloading respect was vs Blackpool). Due to this we were often whacking long balls up to Sharp and Ndiaye as we couldn't pass through the thirds. Our best patch first half came when Ndiaye would turn a hoof or knock into the channel into a good ball. Sharp was removed from the game until the latter stages when we could pass him the ball.

They had the pace to expose our inadequacies, particularly in the middle and their left

Good summary. Add in the fact they were first to every second ball and it's a miracle they only managed to create enough openings to score a deflected goal.

My fear is, our soft (and unathletic) underbelly remains in the centre of midfield, and barring 3 or 4 signings we'll get exposed again at that next level.

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

We really should have done something to combat Chair and Willock BOTH playing on our right hand side. Got nowhere near them all first half

Doesn't help that we only attacked down our right due to having no ability on the left

We could do with more athleticism in the middle. If Doyle doesn't improve then CM is the priority. Our game with the ball can't all rest on Norwood. When we went up we had Fleck to ensure that one man reliance wasn't there, as a result we barely ever got dominated

 

[mattbianco1]

We were playing absolutely fantastic until they scored. QPR had barely touched the ball and we were so comfortable. It looked like it was going to be a walk in the park for us and I'm sure their fans were wondering how bad it would be.
All of a sudden, we make a silly mistake, they score a lucky goal and just like that QPR's confidence raised. They then had something to hold onto and they started to hold the ball and come into the game.

I wouldn't be surprised if the kick on from it now. They'll take points off teams no doubt.

 

[BigBed]

Hope the new owners are making notes, because we're likely to need 7 or 8 players come may.

 

[jt64]

Absolutely. A spine of Egan, Norwood, Sharp - although fine at Championship level - has me anxious about next season (if/when we are promoted)... Watching Brentford out hustle Liverpool for 90mins was on a level I've not seen before...

If we get promoted and Sharp is getting significant minutes then the first question is what the fuck has gone wrong with recruitment. Norwood I wouldn't be overly concerned about, speed of decision making/distribution is more important than pure pace against a high press. But Egan, yep, that'd be a problem. He was being done for pace every other game two seasons ago (when he wasn't suspended for fouling as the last man instead of being done for pace), he would absolutely need quick centre backs alongside if he was to play regularly.

 

[BushBlade]

Good summary. Add in the fact they were first to every second ball and it's a miracle they only managed to create enough openings to score a deflected goal.

My fear is, our soft (and unathletic) underbelly remains in the centre of midfield, and barring 3 or 4 signings we'll get exposed again at that next level.

If we go up I’d expect us to sign 3 or 4 permanently plus a couple of loans. But if we don’t sign anyone in this window, I doubt it will be an issue as we won’t go up.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

If we go up I’d expect us to sign 3 or 4 permanently plus a couple of loans. But if we don’t sign anyone in this window, I doubt it will be an issue as we won’t go up.

I'm a little more optimistic than you about our promotion chances, but if we leave all of our 'Premier League recruitment' to the Summer we're taking one hell of a gamble and based on our previous experience (Luke Freeman/Calum Robinson) I'd rather we made our mistakes prior to needing/expecting these new signings to step in...

Jettison and McAtee showed what energy and agility can bring, so we really need to start bringing in players with that. I'm still a Sharp defender as he still has a major role to play for us. However, that role isn't to be a starting no 9 for five or six games in succession...

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

If we get promoted and Sharp is getting significant minutes then the first question is what the fuck has gone wrong with recruitment. Norwood I wouldn't be overly concerned about, speed of decision making/distribution is more important than pure pace against a high press. But Egan, yep, that'd be a problem. He was being done for pace every other game two seasons ago (when he wasn't suspended for fouling as the last man instead of being done for pace), he would absolutely need quick centre backs alongside if he was to play regularly.

You could have copy & pasted that from the last time we went up and here we are, still relying on that same spine!!!

 

[BushBlade]

I'm a little more optimistic than you about our promotion chances, but if we leave all of our 'Premier League recruitment' to the Summer we're taking one hell of a gamble and based on our previous experience (Luke Freeman/Calum Robinson) I'd rather we made our mistakes prior to needing/expecting these new signings to step in...

Jettison and McAtee showed what energy and agility can bring, so we really need to start bringing in players with that. I'm still a Sharp defender as he still has a major role to play for us. However, that role isn't to be a starting no 9 for five or six games in succession...

I doubt we can afford to sign players good enough to step up to the PL in this window. We’ll have the same problem next season if we go up as we did last time and, in my opinion, it’s pretty unavoidable. It’s more important that we get up than worry about what would happen if we did. Every club that doesn’t have an owner willing and able to invest money in the team when they go up will have the same problem.

The money a club gets from the PL alone is not enough to guarantee survival. It’s like you’ve moved from a country with a weak currency to one with a strong one. All of a sudden, a pint is £50 in your money. We have an immediate problem; we will not get promoted unless we strengthen - McBurnie can’t do it on his own, Sharp is not a promotion winning centre forward, Brewster is MIA and has yet to demonstrate he can play well consistently and Jebbo is a kid learning his trade. At the very least, we need another forward. Surely last night showed this?

IMO, you deal with the problems you’ve got, rather than get hung up over problems you might have later, because if you don’t do the first, the second is unlikely to be a problem.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I doubt we can afford to sign players good enough to step up to the PL in this window. We’ll have the same problem next season if we go up as we did last time and, in my opinion, it’s pretty unavoidable. It’s more important that we get up than worry about what would happen if we did. Every club that doesn’t have an owner willing and able to invest money in the team when they go up will have the same problem.

The money a club gets from the PL alone is not enough to guarantee survival. It’s like you’ve moved from a country with a weak currency to one with a strong one. All of a sudden, a pint is £50 in your money. We have an immediate problem; we will not get promoted unless we strengthen - McBurnie can’t do it on his own, Sharp is not a promotion winning centre forward, Brewster is MIA and has yet to demonstrate he can play well consistently and Jebbo is a kid learning his trade. At the very least, we need another forward. Surely last night showed this?

IMO, you deal with the problems you’ve got, rather than get hung up over problems you might have later, because if you don’t do the first, the second is unlikely to be a problem.

Don't disagree, but Brentford seem to have found a model of bucking this trend and I'm sure they're planning for the next ram-raid on their first team squad.

I guess it's back to my initial point, we know (and had it exposed in full Technicolor last time we were in the PL) that we lack the speed, athleticism and dynamism and are coming up to our 4th transfer window since dropping out of the PL, yet haven't made a single perm signing that addresses that.

To make it worse, our best two players since the WC have been McAtee and Clark so we can't even cling to that optimism...

 

[alcoblade]

.Sharp looked his age but this was accentuated by the lack of legs around him. Hecky took a lot of risks tonight on Berge, Stevens (enforced), Clark, Sharp, Anel. It was ironic that our fresh legs (Doyle) had a total nightmare. I couldn't believe that Bash played no part even after 45 minutes of being unable to pass the ball into midfield. Berge was shot but kept going.

Pre kick off I was worried about Chair and Willock against our tired bodies, and that we'd rack up a shit ton more injuries. Happy to get out with only one. Credit to Stevens who.played really well vs Willock. The Chair vs Baldock/ Berge went as expected. Great cameos from the likes of Mcattee and Jebbo. Robbo did well too. All in all a result I'd have been delighted with before the game.

Interesting that Doyle is classed as "fresh legs" after coming back from injury, yet Berge is about 5 games in, and still seems to be excused as "coming back from injury" when he fails to perform again (I'm not sating that you're specifically doing that here, but it does seem to be a theme amongst many fans).

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Yes, for all our ridiculing of Florist for buying a completely new team…and then some. We’re gonna find ourselves having to do something very similar. Between our clapped out older players, talented loans and pending departures. I just can’t see who we could take with us on our next Premier league journey?

 

[Trigger Blade]

Watching McAtee accelerating and gliding past QPR defenders for fun was magnificent.

One of them was Adomah, just about old enough to be McAtee’s Dad! It felt as though McAtee wasn’t sure whether to take him on, looked at a Albert, realised he was getting on a bit and thought, yep, I can get past him in second gear

Actually, was that what started the move that ended with us scoring, can’t quite recall?

 

[nopigfansintown]

Interesting that Doyle is classed as "fresh legs" after coming back from injury, yet Berge is about 5 games in, and still seems to be excused as "coming back from injury" when he fails to perform again (I'm not sating that you're specifically doing that here, but it does seem to be a theme amongst many fans).

Berge should've been rested last night and off at Blackpool and Coventry after an hour imo. Doyle has been back a while now and was fresh. His abject performance was somewhat understandable, but I'd have left him on regardless . Still.. not much damage done fortunately. If Berge did his hamstring and was out until the end of the season we could have had no complaints. The injuries to Clark and Lowe were equally predictable.

 

[Grappler]

I don't think Hecky and co., planned on Billy Sharp being our starting striker, for a prolonged period. This is just the way things are.

We lost Brewster, Sharp and McBurnie, to injury, at the end of last season. Brewster and McBurnie are injured again, and Brewster won't be back until March (?), and I am not sure that Jebbison is ready to be a starting striker, just yet.

Billy doesn't have lightning pace, although for a player of his age, he is no slouch.

We had Oli Burke, and now Khadra, who are the only players with rapid acceleration (who was the last one we had, Scougall?), and we need someone similar, but with finishing ability.

Same goes for midfield, we have Berge who occasionally can take the ball, and within about five strides, be down at the by-line, while holding off opposition players, but not every game. So the loanee, McAtee is our only rapid runner.

As its stands, I think we are still in the top two or three teams, this season, for scoring the most goals, while letting the least amount in, so it's just tweaking and fine margins needed.

 

[alcoblade]

. If Berge did his hamstring and was out until the end of the season we could have had no complaints. The injuries to Clark and Lowe were equally predictable.

Genuine question - what are we doing with these that we shouldn't be doing? Should Berge not be match fit by now?

(Doyle was shite agreed. Berge was too, but seems to be excused once again).

 

[BushBlade]

Don't disagree, but Brentford seem to have found a model of bucking this trend and I'm sure they're planning for the next ram-raid on their first team squad.

I guess it's back to my initial point, we know (and had it exposed in full Technicolor last time we were in the PL) that we lack the speed, athleticism and dynamism and are coming up to our 4th transfer window since dropping out of the PL, yet haven't made a single perm signing that addresses that.

To make it worse, our best two players since the WC have been McAtee and Clark so we can't even cling to that optimism...

Brentford are a very well run club with a very wealthy owner who used statistical analysis to first make himself very rich and then adapted the software he’d designed to suit football analytics. They’re streets ahead of us. He’s had a plan that he’s stuck to for more than ten years, with patience and perseverance.

We haven’t signed anyone because we haven’t got a benefactor owner and we haven’t traded. This is partly due to Covid, we wouldn’t have been stuck with the likes of C Robinson because we’d have sold them back to the championship and used the money to try again. We couldn’t do that because the championship clubs had little money.
We also haven’t sold anyone apart from Ramsdale since we went down. With hindsight, we should have accepted a lower offer on Berge but we didn’t. Brentford, on the other hand, have been happy to trade, safe in the knowledge that their scouting is so good they’d find adequate replacements. We had six months to replace Wilder and still fucked it up. That’s the difference; that’s what a really well run club looks like. We’re just average and overly dependent on Hecky and his coaches. Owners like Benham and Bloom add something to their clubs.

 

[BushBlade]

Yes, for all our ridiculing of Florist for buying a completely new team…and then some. We’re gonna find ourselves having to do something very similar. Between our clapped out older players, talented loans and pending departures. I just can’t see who we could take with us on our next Premier league journey?

I didn’t ridicule Forest for signing a new team, I ridiculed them for signing two new teams. Villa spent big over two seasons (although lost Grealish) and they’ve put together a decent side. It’s about finding the right balance.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

Brentford are a very well run club with a very wealthy owner who used statistical analysis to first make himself very rich and then adapted the software he’d designed to suit football analytics. They’re streets ahead of us. He’s had a plan that he’s stuck to for more than ten years, with patience and perseverance.

We haven’t signed anyone because we haven’t got a benefactor owner and we haven’t traded. This is partly due to Covid, we wouldn’t have been stuck with the likes of C Robinson because we’d have sold them back to the championship and used the money to try again. We couldn’t do that because the championship clubs had little money.
We also haven’t sold anyone apart from Ramsdale since we went down. With hindsight, we should have accepted a lower offer on Berge but we didn’t. Brentford, on the other hand, have been happy to trade, safe in the knowledge that their scouting is so good they’d find adequate replacements. We had six months to replace Wilder and still fucked it up. That’s the difference; that’s what a really well run club looks like. We’re just average and overly dependent on Hecky and his coaches. Owners like Benham and Bloom add something to their clubs.

Abso-fucking-lutely Brentford are light years ahead of where we are.

I was saying to someone over Christmas that history is repeating itself in that if we get promoted to the PL we'll once again be totally dependent on the manager and he'll be the most important person in the club.... We'll be back in that hole where we're relying on one person to train the players, pick the team, Scout the market, write the theme tune, sing the theme tune.... It's as if we're learnt nothing from our previous excursion, and that was the reason for starting the thread I guess...

 

[nopigfansintown]

Genuine question - what are we doing with these that we shouldn't be doing?

(Doyle was shite agreed. Berge was too, but seems to be excused once again).

Overplaying players that aren't fully fit or already overexerted is a key part of a modern football managers judgement. Now it could be argued that it's a risk worth taking due to the break before the next league game, or the importance of the next three points. A point away at QPR is objectively a good result, too, as was the rest of the Christmas program. We only got one injury in this game and one at Blackpool.The players that are getting slated played their part in these postive results. That we don't have alternatives (more valid in Sharp's case I'd suggest) is another argument for continually risking players.

But if players suffer muscle injuries or dips in performance due to fatigue, you have to.take responsibility for that. Lowe, Berge, Sharp (age), Clark, Bogle had already played enough football to not be risked - especially those recovering from injury. But that's football management: Weighing things up, making the right gambles. The ends always justifies the means when you're successful.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Brentford are a very well run club with a very wealthy owner who used statistical analysis to first make himself very rich and then adapted the software he’d designed to suit football analytics. They’re streets ahead of us. He’s had a plan that he’s stuck to for more than ten years, with patience and perseverance.

We haven’t signed anyone because we haven’t got a benefactor owner and we haven’t traded. This is partly due to Covid, we wouldn’t have been stuck with the likes of C Robinson because we’d have sold them back to the championship and used the money to try again. We couldn’t do that because the championship clubs had little money.
We also haven’t sold anyone apart from Ramsdale since we went down. With hindsight, we should have accepted a lower offer on Berge but we didn’t. Brentford, on the other hand, have been happy to trade, safe in the knowledge that their scouting is so good they’d find adequate replacements. We had six months to replace Wilder and still fucked it up. That’s the difference; that’s what a really well run club looks like. We’re just average and overly dependent on Hecky and his coaches. Owners like Benham and Bloom add something to their clubs.

I think another key is trading players in the PL. If you can get a few young uns that you can sell for 40 million + and then reinvest wisely you're on the road to becoming sustainable. Although we targeted the right type of player, apart from Rambo and Bogle we got the wrong ones.We were also unlucky with the JOC injury (a potential big sale). It didn't help that all our young talent was sold before we reached the PL (Brooks, DCL, Adams, Ramsdale).

 

[mattbianco1]

But if we don’t sign anyone in this window, I doubt it will be an issue as we won’t go up.

So a team that's been handicapped by injuries for 90% of the season so far, sitting 9 points clear of 3rd place, won't get promoted without signings even though most of the injured players are now back?