Beware the premier league

[Sheffield Wednesday fan]

Wont you be in the superleague?

No it's not big enough

 

[Balham]

£18m on Archer is a bit of a weird one as well, with the mandatory sell back it is in effect a loan unless we had stayed up, so you could say that it should/shouldn't be included in the net spend depending how you look at it. I'm not sure what that sell back amount is, Villa will basically give us our money back and we took his wages off their books for a season or if there is some profit in there for them too. Certainly it is different from the other real permanent signings when looking at net spend.

Technically his sale will be in the 24/25 season so I excluded it.

 

[loyalblade95]

Well said.

Fancy working for a company where the owners actually plan to break all the financial rules in order to just survive.

It’s a disgrace.

Yeah, and even with those points deductions, Forest got lucky that the 3 promoted teams were poor this season, if just one of us Burnley and Luton had done better this season (mainly Luton) then Forest would have been relegated.

Breaking the rules to survive might seem to have worked for Forest, but it very nearly didn't and unfortunately it just reinforces how hard it is to survive in the premier league for newly promoted sides.

 

[loyalblade95]

Technically his sale will be in the 24/25 season so I excluded it.

Pretty sure Archers sale will count as part of this seasons accounts, which tend to end around the 30th June.

 

[LBA_Blade]

If they aren't careful with the Premier League it will end up a franchise model like the big American sports, its almost there for the top 8 in the Premier League. A breakaway "European Super League" franchise probably would have their own broadcaster, channel wise too to keep it exclusive behind a pay wall.

Would it get sanctioned who knows but who would have thought a winter world cup in Qatar would have been possible 15 years ago.

 

[YES Blade]

If they aren't careful with the Premier League it will end up a franchise model like the big American sports, its almost there for the top 8 in the Premier League. A breakaway "European Super League" franchise probably would have their own broadcaster, channel wise too to keep it exclusive behind a pay wall.

Would it get sanctioned who knows but who would have thought a winter world cup in Qatar would have been possible 15 years ago.

I’ve reached the point where I just think that something needs to change, whether that’s a franchise model or European super league, then so be it. I’m past caring about protecting the traditions of English football.

The current situation is just boring, there is no competition anymore. They might as well hand Man City the title in August and not bother playing a match.

The league structure was set up at a time when no one could’ve foreseen what English football would become, so something has to change to suit the current financial situation of football.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

Yeah, and even with those points deductions, Forest got lucky that the 3 promoted teams were poor this season, if just one of us Burnley and Luton had done better this season (mainly Luton) then Forest would have been relegated.

Breaking the rules to survive might seem to have worked for Forest, but it very nearly didn't and unfortunately it just reinforces how hard it is to survive in the premier league for newly promoted sides.

Forest are going to have this problem again. If they don't shift MGW for a big profit then they'll be in breach of FFP as soon as they go on another spending spree this summer, which they're bound to do as their squad was fighting relegation for the second half of the season.

 

[wak1889]

Not only the spend ratio ballooning, but 23 points between 1st and 4th in the Premiership.

Is that a record at all ?

No when Liverpool won league last time it was 33 points between them and 4th

 

[Nick Jansky]

No it's not big enough

In all seriousness, do you still consider Wednesday to be a big club? Or do you accept that it has become a club that can’t realistically have expectations beyond occasionally being competitive in the Championship.

You guys are known as The Deluded for good reason, but I’m wondering if the level of delusion is universal, or if there are those amongst you with more reasonable aspirations?

 

[JayGreen17]

Not correct on either expenditure or transfer balance.

On expenditure
20. Luton £25m
19. Everton £35m
18. United £55m
17. Palace £60m
...
12. Burnley £105m
...
3. Man City £220m
2. Spurs £235m
1. Chelsea £403m

Leeds and Coventry both outspent Luton; Leicester outspent Everton and Luton.

On net spend
20. Brighton +£75m
19. Wolves +£70m
18. Everton +£36m
17. West Ham +£20m
16. Fulham -£12m
15. United -£15m
14. Luton -£24m
...
12. Burnley -£102m
...
3. Spurs -£130m
2. Arsenal -£155m
1. Chelsea -£171m

Burnley have got some serious work to do to shore up their finances.take

Not correct on either expenditure or transfer balance.

On expenditure
20. Luton £25m
19. Everton £35m
18. United £55m
17. Palace £60m
...
12. Burnley £105m
...
3. Man City £220m
2. Spurs £235m
1. Chelsea £403m

Leeds and Coventry both outspent Luton; Leicester outspent Everton and Luton.

On net spend
20. Brighton +£75m
19. Wolves +£70m
18. Everton +£36m
17. West Ham +£20m
16. Fulham -£12m
15. United -£15m
14. Luton -£24m
...
12. Burnley -£102m
...
3. Spurs -£130m
2. Arsenal -£155m
1. Chelsea -£171m

Burnley have got some serious work to do to shore up their finances.

No, take 16m off u it’s as the Archer transfer was a 4m loan.

 

[Sheffield Wednesday fan]

In all seriousness, do you still consider Wednesday to be a big club? Or do you accept that it has become a club that can’t realistically have expectations beyond occasionally being competitive in the Championship.

You guys are known as The Deluded for good reason, but I’m wondering if the level of delusion is universal, or if there are those amongst you with more reasonable aspirations?

Both Sheffield clubs are big clubs but huge underachievers. I can't see that changing soon for either club and the Premier league will just become the top 6 league every year if not already.

 

[Silent Blade]

No, take 16m off u it’s as the Archer transfer was a 4m loan.

Wrong, it wasn't a loan

 

[Sheffield Wednesday fan]

In all seriousness, do you still consider Wednesday to be a big club? Or do you accept that it has become a club that can’t realistically have expectations beyond occasionally being competitive in the Championship.

You guys are known as The Deluded for good reason, but I’m wondering if the level of delusion is universal, or if there are those amongst you with more reasonable aspirations?

Forgot to add too that in someways the Championship is getting a little like the Premier League with teams coming down going straight back up....League 1 next season will be interesting as so many decent size clubs in there is probably unpredictable......Championship is the best league but for how long who knows.

 

[Tom Bott]

For those who want to see how bonkers the Premier league is financially this is an interesting group of stats.

Premier League PSR: Clubs total of £1bn of losses in 11 charts

BBC Sport breaks down the Premier League clubs' £1bn of losses in 11 charts.

www.bbc.com

"It cost former Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich about £900,000 a week for 19 years in terms of interest-free loans to cover the club's losses," Maguire said.

 

[Sheffsteel]

For a start, the fees reported on Transfermarkt are in Euros so that needs adjusting and you're correct that there's a lot of guesswork and speculation. Ramsdale, for instance, is still reported at €21.6m on there despite Bournemouth's accounts confirming that we paid £12.6m for him (£16.75m gross less the sell-on clause).

From everything on here it's clear that the fees for most of our incomings last summer are seriously overstated on there. I think the true picture is something like this:
£18m on Archer
£11m on Hamer (variables: up to £15m)
£7m on Vini Souza (basic £6m, triggered appearance bonuses take it to £7m, additional variables up to £10.5m)
£5m on Austin Trusty
£2.5m on Beni Traoré (variables: up to £4m)
£2m on Ivor Grbic
£1.2m Anis Slimane (variables: up to £2m)
That's a total of £46.7m incoming. I added on a bit for loan fees and other triggered variables.

We sold Ndiaye for £20m and Berge for £15m, both incorrectly reported (again) on TM.

I know someone at director level at SUFC who I hardly ever see and when I do I respect his privacy and don’t hassle him.

One thing he did say to me last year is that transfer fees are really complicated and no one knows the actual cost or expense at the time due to the conditions and clauses that’s why negotiations take so long. So in many cases the transfer fee is changing throughout the season.

An example would be we paid 10 million for Hamer, if he makes 20 appearances in the 1st season we pay an extra 1 million, if we avoid relegation we pay an extra 3 million, if Hamer scores 10 goals we pay another million etc etc.

Then the fee might seem pretty good but Hamers agent might want to protect his player and insist if and when we’re relegated we much accept any bid for 15 million and can’t refuse. Then you sometimes find Hamers agent approaching PL clubs saying he’s been decent in the PL and is now available for only 15 million.

 

[Tickhill Blade]

I know someone at director level at SUFC who I hardly ever see and when I do I respect his privacy and don’t hassle him.

One thing he did say to me last year is that transfer fees are really complicated and no one knows the actual cost or expense at the time due to the conditions and clauses that’s why negotiations take so long. So in many cases the transfer fee is changing throughout the season.

An example would be we paid 10 million for Hamer, if he makes 20 appearances in the 1st season we pay an extra 1 million, if we avoid relegation we pay an extra 3 million, if Hamer scores 10 goals we pay another million etc etc.

Then the fee might seem pretty good but Hamers agent might want to protect his player and insist if and when we’re relegated we much accept any bid for 15 million and can’t refuse. Then you sometimes find Hamers agent approaching PL clubs saying he’s been decent in the PL and is now available for only 15 million.

I think most rational people realise this, although there will always be some fans that think a £10m fee is agreed and we make a same day bank transfer. I don't think it's any more complicated than commercial deals in other industries.

It's a balance isn't it, I'm sure United could remove the conditional clauses by paying a higher fee, or remove the release clause by paying higher wages, but then all the risk of Hamer performing is with them. So making it more complicated mitigates the risk somewhat

 

[Champagneblade]

For a start, the fees reported on Transfermarkt are in Euros so that needs adjusting and you're correct that there's a lot of guesswork and speculation. Ramsdale, for instance, is still reported at €21.6m on there despite Bournemouth's accounts confirming that we paid £12.6m for him (£16.75m gross less the sell-on clause).

From everything on here it's clear that the fees for most of our incomings last summer are seriously overstated on there. I think the true picture is something like this:
£18m on Archer
£11m on Hamer (variables: up to £15m)
£7m on Vini Souza (basic £6m, triggered appearance bonuses take it to £7m, additional variables up to £10.5m)
£5m on Austin Trusty
£2.5m on Beni Traoré (variables: up to £4m)
£2m on Ivor Grbic
£1.2m Anis Slimane (variables: up to £2m)
That's a total of £46.7m incoming. I added on a bit for loan fees and other triggered variables.

We sold Ndiaye for £20m and Berge for £15m, both incorrectly reported (again) on TM.

When you put it like that and assuming we paid 1/4 of the Archer fee and don’t bother with the rest (worst case) then you’re looking at a nil spend pretty much, a few million here or there.

Quite incredible for a promoted team with the riches of the Premier League.

 

[mancunianblade]

Honestly I want promotion at the first attempt, I want us to be an established well run Premier League club, and I want to see us win something of note, I even include the CarrierBag Binghams potted meat League Cup anything IDC just something semi decent in my life time.

I get all this Premier League players earn trillions, premier league clubs spend trillions.

But first things first I’m not paying them and that money they’re spending isn’t going to help us the people in anyway way if it’s not spent the way it is, not as if Amazon are going to spend the money on Hospitals instead.

The thread starts with beware the premier league but then it’s rightly pointed out about championship spending what next? Beware the championship and we take solace in League One where players earn a modest £5k-£10k pw for playing level 3 football

 

[Pintor75]

I read where if Souza had started on Sunday we had to pay another six figure fee to his previous club

 

[Woodhouseblades]

Honestly I want promotion at the first attempt, I want us to be an established well run Premier League club, and I want to see us win something of note, I even include the CarrierBag Binghams potted meat League Cup anything IDC just something semi decent in my life time.

I get all this Premier League players earn trillions, premier league clubs spend trillions.

But first things first I’m not paying them and that money they’re spending isn’t going to help us the people in anyway way if it’s not spent the way it is, not as if Amazon are going to spend the money on Hospitals instead.

The thread starts with beware the premier league but then it’s rightly pointed out about championship spending what next? Beware the championship and we take solace in League One where players earn a modest £5k-£10k pw for playing level 3 football

Agree

 

[Agreasychipbutty]

I read where if Souza had started on Sunday we had to pay another six figure fee to his previous club

And even worse than that, Souza would have started...

 

[munksyb]

you've dodged one there Leeds

Apart from loosing players & probably having a points deduction

roll the dice

gamble

and lose either way