Baxter's role, and performance vs Blackpool

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Bergen Blade , about 10 minutes from the start of the match, a Blackpool player had the ball on the right with acres of space (but didnt do with it much after K Wallace ran 15 yards to him), was it the fault of Kieran Wallace or Che Adams who should have been there? If this happens again at Swindon it will be meat and drink to Nathan Byrne

Swindon aren't playing the 3-5-2 taht they played last season with Byrne as an attacking wing back. They are playing 4-3-3 with Byrne as one of the front 3. He has also been given the #10 shirt. This new role enabled him to score an hat-trick on the opening day.
 



There's no point analysing baxter on Saturday, we had way too much possesion in that game..

People near me on the kop were frustrated, And all I thought was the team were conserving energy to last the whole 90mins...

You couldn't run em in that heat and not burn out in that first half.. it was an oven..

Billy Sharp said in his post match interview that it was boiling. Said he much prefers the cold nights midway through the season.

Bergen Blade - back on to Baxter. I was impressed at the amount of headers he won in midfield. Not a massive amount like double figures but for a relatively small guy, he won more than his fair share.
 
What you are really saying is he is playing like McCall used to without having that quality.
As for the 'wide' men, the pitch has been narrowed and JCR has been told to not hug the wing and come inside a lot more. Blackpool neutralised Che Adams and he was very ineffective until he switched just before he was taken off. Should he be given more freedom to roam? this may depend on the opposition. What is becoming clear is that Atkins likes to work a much narrower game. This will definitely suit McNulty and should result in goals coming from all different sources.
If the pitch has been narrowed it must be on the South Stand side as my seat has been in line with the JS touch line for the last 13 or 14 seasons
 
You're a step ahead of the two dopes they had on MOTD2 last night. Top analysis Bergen.

For me, Baxter is a top top player.
 
I think watching the game in the first half doesn't bear this out. Sammon and Sharp were working tirelessly, and credit to them for that, but their movement was covered often by simple weight of numbers. Che had a poor game. JCR was the main outlet and could have been involved more. As soon as he was - after half time - we were breaking through.

You have to look at the opposition ,a lost cause in the 3rd division who have virtually given up ,you say Sammon and Sharp couldn't get involved. Their movement is excellent and with JCR and Adams he had plenty of options ,he is the player who is supposed to open teams up ,we have given him the tools but if he cant do it against a very poor demotivated side like Blackpool at home in front of 20k fans when will he do it ? The guy has had 2 seasons of rank poor performances and shows no sign of improvement ,in my opinion we could do so much better.

No signs of improvement? I would have transfer listed him in the summer if he came back with similar physique to last season. His agility is so much better. As mentioned I think his deep position makes it unrealistic that he will "open teams up" on a regular basis. When teams defend in numbers at the lane I think Baxter naturally will take fewer risks with his passing and he will avoid trying to beat players when he is closed down, to avoid losing it in dangerous positions.

Maybe the other players used him a bit too much on Saturday, and this slowed us down a bit much? But his partner Basham is trying to adapt to the new formation and currently take very little attacking responsibility on the ball. On Saturday Adams had an off game while JCR is a bit of an individualist, he likes to get the ball in certain situations, but isn't a player who combines neatly with nearby players, like Williamson and Lowton did when they formed our right hand side. This may have caused Freeman to hold back more. Kieran Wallace did well, but there weren't too many flowing moves down that side either.

William Henry Foulkes mentioned 4-2-2-2 and that's struck me as well. The system very much relies on the two attacking midfielders/"wide" men having good games to work offensively.
 
Is that true about the pitch, that it's narrower than before?

I don't know if it's narrower but I think it is a fixed (or at least maximum) width. Beyond the touchline it looks like 3G rather than Desso.

If this is the case it struck me as an odd limitation to accept - unless the 3G is as wide as possible and we can narrow it if we see fit.
 
If the pitch has been narrowed it must be on the South Stand side as my seat has been in line with the JS touch line for the last 13 or 14 seasons

And I'm in line with the line on John St, hasn't changed our side either
But Adkins does prefer a narrower game, interplay around the box and dragging defenders out.
 
No signs of improvement? I would have transfer listed him in the summer if he came back with similar physique to last season. His agility is so much better. As mentioned I think his deep position makes it unrealistic that he will "open teams up" on a regular basis. When teams defend in numbers at the lane I think Baxter naturally will take fewer risks with his passing and he will avoid trying to beat players when he is closed down, to avoid losing it in dangerous positions.

Maybe the other players used him a bit too much on Saturday, and this slowed us down a bit much? But his partner Basham is trying to adapt to the new formation and currently take very little attacking responsibility on the ball. On Saturday Adams had an off game while JCR is a bit of an individualist, he likes to get the ball in certain situations, but isn't a player who combines neatly with nearby players, like Williamson and Lowton did when they formed our right hand side. This may have caused Freeman to hold back more. Kieran Wallace did well, but there weren't too many flowing moves down that side either.

William Henry Foulkes mentioned 4-2-2-2 and that's struck me as well. The system very much relies on the two attacking midfielders/"wide" men having good games to work offensively.
You've outlined the point for me there Bergen ,we always seem to look for excuses for him ,every game different excuse. I just don't think he is as talented as people make out ,his fitness has improved ,his attitude has but they both had to. He just isn't as good as he is made out to be in my opinion and I look at opposition midfielders who are so much better and have a bigger impact on the game ,even Blackpool had one on Saturday. The biggest problem I have with him is that he slows our tempo down far too much and we lose impetus in games instead of keeping pressure on the opposition and taking advantage with the players we have.
 
Swindon aren't playing the 3-5-2 taht they played last season with Byrne as an attacking wing back. They are playing 4-3-3 with Byrne as one of the front 3. He has also been given the #10 shirt. This new role enabled him to score an hat-trick on the opening day.
Lets hope Byrne is sold before Saturday!
 
I don't know if it's narrower but I think it is a fixed (or at least maximum) width. Beyond the touchline it looks like 3G rather than Desso.

If this is the case it struck me as an odd limitation to accept - unless the 3G is as wide as possible and we can narrow it if we see fit.
It's 3G on the South Stand side but grass on John Street side, so the width can be changed.

If John Street is the same touch line as last season they could only have narrowed on the South Stand side. I can't tell if they have.
 
Baxter played a deeper role a couple of times for Clough and played quite well there. I think it's his best position.

Yeah, I agree. Hopefully, with him seemingly being used week-in-week-out in that position (rather than being shifted around to various positions, as previously), he'll now get the chance to develop & mature in the role. We're already seeing his defensive game come on leaps & bounds.

My impression is that the basic template/structure is being set at the moment, which can appear a bit rigid. But, as time goes on, as partnerships & understandings develop, & as players become more comfortable in their roles within the system, then more flexibility (& quicker movement of the ball) will follow.
 
Some great analysis Bergen. You make some really good points.

My biggest issues with both Basham and Baxter is the speed in which they take to do things both on and off the ball. They need umpteen touches to play a simple square ball and as we saw Saturday this just allowed other teams to get men behind the ball. I think both are decent players at this level but neither is outstanding at any one thing and they lack pace/mobility. I kind of agree that both players oddly would work better in a 3 with a speedy, nimble player in between them doing the bits and pieces. Sadly we need 2 up top to score enough goals and worry teams so unsure over the season it will work. I think against poorer sides we will be ok but some of the better teams will just destroy us in that area through having quicker, sharper and more mobile players and also better tacklers/harriers. Those two are decent footballers, both fairly intelligent players but wont destroy teams going forward and wont protect us against counter attack/speed the other way
 
It's 3G on the South Stand side but grass on John Street side, so the width can be changed.

If John Street is the same touch line as last season they could only have narrowed on the South Stand side. I can't tell if they have.

OK. Thanks. It was a friendly, watching from the South Stand, when I noticed this.
 



baxter is bound to lose the ball as he is trying to dictate the play.. just accept it
 
I read very contrasting opinions on Jose Baxter following our 2-0 home win against Blackpool on Saturday. Some said he bossed midfield, others claimed he didn't do enough, and some even said his distribution was awful.


I decided to have a close look at his performance. At first I thought about counting every single pass, but after three minutes I realised that would be far too much work, as he was very involved and surely made far more passes than any other player on the pitch.


Instead I skipped the neutral passes. These are the "easy" ones, short, often sideways and backwards to an unmarked teammate and when under little pressure.


There were loads of these as he's been given a very central role in Nigel Adkins' team, he's a holding, or deep-lying, playmaker. He comes short for the ball, trying to always be an option when the defenders start building an attack. When our players are well closed down they often look to pass it back to Baxter in support. Very rarely did Baxter make off the ball runs forward, and this isn't because he's unable to do it. It is clearly his instruction to not venture too far forward. Defensively he's got to be in a position to protect the back four if the opposition counters. His job is to start off moves, to get us playing, to keep things ticking, to up and dictate the pace of the game.


I think we must learn to accept that this is his current role. Those expecting Baxter to be a goal threat, make runs into the box, regularly getting beyond the strikers, will be frustrated if Adkins' keeps his current set up. He may not even get many assists as it's difficult to get a lot of them from such a deep, restricted, position.


Our wide men (JCR and Adams) against Blackpool were more attacking than what's the norm in modern 4-4-2 formations. When that's the case it becomes even more important for the central midfield duo to hold back more. Basham was also restricted, and only when we looked to get crosses in, did he try to get into the box and get on the end of things.

View attachment 13003
* With Blackpool packing midfield it was hard for Baxter to be too adventurous with his passing from his deep position, and he had to go short most of the time.


Anyway, back to the analysis of Baxter. I noted all his


  • great passes
  • misplaced passes



Great passes


7' Penetrating pass, finds JCR centrally

8' Good pass out to Adams 1on1 with full back

21' Picked up clearence, directly set up JCR with a 1 on 1 with his full back

40' Loses two men and finds K.Wallace in space out wide

41' Superb pass, finding K.Wallace running in behind into box (Sammon shot over, first time JB found space in an advanced position)


2nd half:


20' Excellent threaded pass to McNulty, who found Sharp, who passed backwards

25' Clever pass up to Sharp

28' Got involved a bit higher up, set up J.W with a 1 on 1 out wide​



Misplaced passes


5' Looked an easy pass to JCR, but it went straight out for a throw in

7' Ambitious pass to JCR in middle, lacked accuracy

9' Forward pass blocked, bit sloppy

14' Tried lifting ball out to wing, went out for goal kick, run wasn't there

32' Tried forward pass, intercepted. Think he lost patience, as we really struggled to penetrate at this stage.

*43' Mishit pass to Freeman in a wide position, loss of concentration. Set up chance to break, but Baxter actually stopped it with a strong tackle

45' Tried long pass to Sammon, went out of play


2nd half:


19' Hopeful ball over the top to McNulty, but overhit, gk got it​




With the amount of passes he made (probably 100+?) I think his pass completion must have been pretty good. There was also just one occasion (*) where he lost the ball dangerously.


The 'easy' playmaking part, touch, turn and passing it on, he does quite well and it's easy to see he's got natural ability and a lot of composure on the ball. His partner Basham lacks this ability usually just gave it to Baxter. This slows us down at times. Adams had an off game and Sharp and Sammon also struggled to get involved, which meant we created very little until JCR started beating his man. I think this made Baxter a bit impatient and tried a couple of hopeful passes.


Defensively Baxter has improved after finally getting fit enough for this level of football. He back tracks, chases and holds his position much better, although he lets Basham do more of this when it's possible. Baxter also won a lot of headers and made a couple of strong tackles too. Blackpool didn't attack too much, but I didn't feel Baxter was the defensive liability he was last season.

There were some decent passes, but there must be better movement in front of him for him to have even more attacking impact.

Summary

If you accept Baxter's role for what it is, playmaking from deep, he did a decent job. Blackpool dropped deep and our forwards/wide men really struggled to find space. When games are like that, people may start to look for other people to contribute more and maybe that's why some people didn't rate Baxter's performance.

I think Adkins' substitutions also suggest that he, too, saw the performances of the front players as our biggest problem on the day, and credit to him, he changed it and we got the win in the end, although the team's performance was far from convincing. Baxter? 7/10 from me.



the thing is he is billed as such a "brilliant passer" able to thread a pass through the eye of a needle etc... so by your own analysis 8 "misplaced" passes some when under no real pressure. and one being dangerous....

had this been say McEverley, then this would have been a 3/10 type score, with many stating that McEverley usually has "1 bombscare moment a game" with numerous misplaced passes. I noticed from being at the game that in the second half Baxter seemed to disappear (and your "involvement analysis seems to back this up) the other thing I tended to notice was both he and Sharp had the perpensity to play the ball backwards (no real issue with that, however when lesser players did it there were grumbles from around me) when Mcnulty came he seemed to want to pass forward or turn and run forward.

Adkins did pick up on the fact we were also too slow in moving the ball forward (at times when we broke we again allowed Blackpool to filter back creating ourselves the problem. I will put this game down to the ridiculous heat. but we need to make sure we are breaking quicker when teams come to park the bus.
 
If we don't make a signing before saturday Byrne is going to rip us to shreds agains.
 
You have to look at the opposition ,a lost cause in the 3rd division who have virtually given up ,you say Sammon and Sharp couldn't get involved. Their movement is excellent and with JCR and Adams he had plenty of options ,he is the player who is supposed to open teams up ,we have given him the tools but if he cant do it against a very poor demotivated side like Blackpool at home in front of 20k fans when will he do it ? The guy has had 2 seasons of rank poor performances and shows no sign of improvement ,in my opinion we could do so much better.


Sitwell, you trot that out without any regard for the OP or the opinions of a number of other posters on this thread who see value in Baxter's play. It's a team game and the manager left him on for 90 minutes and had him playing a disciplined role. I'm sure Baxter himself would love to be playing further upfield and I'd certainly like to see him playing upfield, but we are not playing a system to make that possible.

The manager is cautious because we conceded four goals in the first league game; he is protecting the back 4.
 
Some great analysis Bergen. You make some really good points.

My biggest issues with both Basham and Baxter is the speed in which they take to do things both on and off the ball. They need umpteen touches to play a simple square ball and as we saw Saturday this just allowed other teams to get men behind the ball. I think both are decent players at this level but neither is outstanding at any one thing and they lack pace/mobility. I kind of agree that both players oddly would work better in a 3 with a speedy, nimble player in between them doing the bits and pieces. Sadly we need 2 up top to score enough goals and worry teams so unsure over the season it will work. I think against poorer sides we will be ok but some of the better teams will just destroy us in that area through having quicker, sharper and more mobile players and also better tacklers/harriers. Those two are decent footballers, both fairly intelligent players but wont destroy teams going forward and wont protect us against counter attack/speed the other way


Our current squad unbalance makes it hard to play 4-4-2 as Clough manned us for 4-5-1.

It cries out for 3-5-2 IMO as that formation can be stronger than 4-4-2 defensively because the back 3 concentrate solely on defending and the 5 in midfield can compete better in midfield. Either that or sign a leader in midfield and play Reed or a fit Wallace alongside him.
 
This Baxter problem is once again dividing opinions.

We have up until now been stuffed by a very aggressive midfield at Gillingham.
We have been overrun by a decent Chesterfield midfield at Home.
We dominated the midfield away at Peterboro - but we were warned by P'boro fans that they had been dominated in all previous games prior to our game with them.
We huffed and puffed against an organised Blackpool, until Adkins pulled the subs masterstroke.

My opinion matches Sitwell and don't think it has changed since Baxter has been here. Similar applies to most of our midfield, even when we had 5 last season.

We do not, and cannot, and never have been able to cope with any team, either home and away that puts pressure on our midfield - that also includes our wide midfield. Why does/did Flynn turn backwards - pressure. Why did Murphy blow hot and cold - pressure and he was doubled up on. Why was Adams poor on Saturday - pressure. Why has midfields like Rochdale/Crewe/Oldham and numerous others, over run us in midfield last season.

It is because of a fundamental basic that they are not good enough when the opposition are aggressive, close us down and do not let us play football. We are tighter at the back, hence the decent results, but a problem in midfield still exists.

Blackpool where generally shit - they sat deep and we struggled big time to break them down.

I really don't have a problem with Baxters ability and it is nothing personal - but for me he simply isn't good enough to dictate play, where a central midfield player should dictate play. He is playing because he is the probably the best we have available in the club who is fit.

It is really no surprise what so ever that we go a long way to resolving the CH problem with Edgar and we are now talking/writing/discussing centre midfield.

Baxter is trying his best, but he is not the solution to us finishing top 2 - top deep, too slow and given even an average opposition manager and scouting system, they will find a way to nullify Baxter very very easily and the rest of our midfield. Chezzer did, they were just shit in defence and poor/average up front. Swindon will be a very different task and I wonder whether Adkins has a plan for them.

Not a secret, I am a fan of Wallace - whether that is Wallace/Baxter or Wallace/Basham, don't really care but there will be more Gillingham's if something isn't done. Perhaps it's a new signing as some want. Doubt we can afford that type of player so the solution has to lie with existing personal.

Chezzer/P'boro and Blackpool have all had footballing midfields of differing standards - they won't all be like that.

UTB
 
Nice to read that analysis Bergen and largely backs up how I saw the game. I thought our central midfielders did OK against Blackpool’s 3 men in there but there just wasn’t enough movement ahead of them in the first half. I did think they were just getting into their stride though when Adkins made the changes so was surprised that he took Che and Connor off as they’d just sprung into life but fair play, it worked.
I’m glad you pointed out the misplaced pass just before half time where he sprinted across and made a recovering tackle. That’s something he’s added to his game since last season.
I agree he is one of the few who get’s his head up and will take some responsibility on the ball to try to make something happen.
I think we were a little spoiled with K-Mac but would say Baxter is probably better than most in the division in the role he’s playing. That being said, I’m still hopeful that Wallace can kick on and force his way in at some stage.
 
Wallace/ Basham
Wallace/Reed
Wallace/ Baxter
Wallace/Scougall
Basham/ Reed
Basham/ Baxter
Basham/ Scougall
Baxter/Reed
Baxter/ Scougall
Scougall/Reed

If we continue with 4-4-2 then the fitness of Wallace might be the key to our season in the absence of a significant new signing as we are stretched in that central area.

If the central pairing is instructed not to push forward by the manager we could have Ross Barkley in there and be no better. If that should be the instruction then Baxter would be my fourth choice in the above list of players; he is not cut out for 4-4-2.
 
This Baxter problem is once again dividing opinions.

We have up until now been stuffed by a very aggressive midfield at Gillingham.
We have been overrun by a decent Chesterfield midfield at Home.
We dominated the midfield away at Peterboro - but we were warned by P'boro fans that they had been dominated in all previous games prior to our game with them.
We huffed and puffed against an organised Blackpool, until Adkins pulled the subs masterstroke.

My opinion matches Sitwell and don't think it has changed since Baxter has been here. Similar applies to most of our midfield, even when we had 5 last season.

We do not, and cannot, and never have been able to cope with any team, either home and away that puts pressure on our midfield - that also includes our wide midfield. Why does/did Flynn turn backwards - pressure. Why did Murphy blow hot and cold - pressure and he was doubled up on. Why was Adams poor on Saturday - pressure. Why has midfields like Rochdale/Crewe/Oldham and numerous others, over run us in midfield last season.

It is because of a fundamental basic that they are not good enough when the opposition are aggressive, close us down and do not let us play football. We are tighter at the back, hence the decent results, but a problem in midfield still exists.

Blackpool where generally shit - they sat deep and we struggled big time to break them down.

I really don't have a problem with Baxters ability and it is nothing personal - but for me he simply isn't good enough to dictate play, where a central midfield player should dictate play. He is playing because he is the probably the best we have available in the club who is fit.

It is really no surprise what so ever that we go a long way to resolving the CH problem with Edgar and we are now talking/writing/discussing centre midfield.

Baxter is trying his best, but he is not the solution to us finishing top 2 - top deep, too slow and given even an average opposition manager and scouting system, they will find a way to nullify Baxter very very easily and the rest of our midfield. Chezzer did, they were just shit in defence and poor/average up front. Swindon will be a very different task and I wonder whether Adkins has a plan for them.

Not a secret, I am a fan of Wallace - whether that is Wallace/Baxter or Wallace/Basham, don't really care but there will be more Gillingham's if something isn't done. Perhaps it's a new signing as some want. Doubt we can afford that type of player so the solution has to lie with existing personal.

Chezzer/P'boro and Blackpool have all had footballing midfields of differing standards - they won't all be like that.

UTB
I totally agree with your point about sides aggressively applying pressure to our midfield, it's been our Achilles heel for several seasons now. I also agree with Deadbat's views on central midfield's speed of thought in anticipation and execution.

Wallace could be the answer, I liked what he did when he came on Saturday. It's too early to tell if he's overcome his injury problems yet.
 
Sitwell, you trot that out without any regard for the OP or the opinions of a number of other posters on this thread who see value in Baxter's play. It's a team game and the manager left him on for 90 minutes and had him playing a disciplined role. I'm sure Baxter himself would love to be playing further upfield and I'd certainly like to see him playing upfield, but we are not playing a system to make that possible.

The manager is cautious because we conceded four goals in the first league game; he is protecting the back 4.

so he is being Negative as he doesnt want to lose?? is that what you are saying? "protecting the back 4" rather than "attacking their back 4".... crikey imagine if this was clough....
 
so he is being Negative as he doesnt want to lose?? is that what you are saying? "protecting the back 4" rather than "attacking their back 4".... crikey imagine if this was clough....


I don't like to talk about the Clough era!! :D:D:D.

Not exactly negative, more a matter of balance and degree at that stage of the game.
 
This is one of the best OP's I've ever read on here and the discussion has been quality.

Well done Bergen. I know you have not been one of Baxter's biggest fans but the OP was balanced and objective and gave the whole debate on Baxter some perspective. 53 " likes" speak volumes.
 
Last edited:
Wallace/ Basham
Wallace/Reed
Wallace/ Baxter
Wallace/Scougall
Basham/ Reed
Basham/ Baxter
Basham/ Scougall
Baxter/Reed
Baxter/ Scougall
Scougall/Reed

If we continue with 4-4-2 then the fitness of Wallace might be the key to our season in the absence of a significant new signing as we are stretched in that central area.

If the central pairing is instructed not to push forward by the manager we could have Ross Barkley in there and be no better. If that should be the instruction then Baxter would be my fourth choice in the above list of players; he is not cut out for 4-4-2.

But this goes to my point - you think Reed and Scougall are suited to 4-4-2? Really?

I see it with Wallace but not those 2.
 



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