Attendance question

[Darren]

Ok then, I'll have a chat, please stop me if I become too religious maniac/freakish

Firstly then, why do you think on this earth good people will be rewarded and bad people will be punished?
Also what do you define as good and bad? What do you define as random? Do you know how unlikely it is that we exist at all?

Secondly, You said, "without any evidence of people being rewarded and bad people punished".

Lets look at the recent news, 3 guys have been sent down today living in Brum for plotting terrorism.
The police reckon it could have been worse than 7/7. They will spend most of the rest of their lives in prison.
Have I found the first known example of evidence of bad people being punished?

It's probably going to be too late to debate this tonight (as I'm a tired parent of 2 young boys who will wake me up at the crack of dawn!), but i'd love to pick it up again tomorow if youre game Darren?

All the best, Gavlar.

Everything is unlikely if you look at it in a certain way.

Yes, sometimes bad people are punished - but murderous tyrants like Stalin and Pol Pot can die peacefully in their beds at an advanced old age.

The Christian God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent. If such a God existed, the world would simply not operate in the way it does. Lions can only live by causing intense suffering to gazelles and zebras. It would be a simple matter for God to arrange things in such a way that that didn't happen. I can't see how a world organised in that way is compatible with the existence of a Christian God.

I think there is a respectable intellectual argument for a deist God who created the whole thing and who is morally neutral and doesn't intervene in the world. But the idea of the Christian God who is concerned with human beings and intervenes in the world seems to me completely at odds with the facts.

 

[Northyorksblade]

Clem Attlee once said apropos Christianity that he believed in the ethics, but not the mumbo jumbo. That just about sums up my position. I don't believe in God or any concept of a future life. I think thats just wishful thinking. However, its pretty obvious to me that my whole ethical, moral and political position is heavily influenced by Chrsitianity.

Really? Should there have been a smiley at the end?

 

[CG Blade]

Everything is unlikely if you look at it in a certain way.

Yes, sometimes bad people are punished - but murderous tyrants like Stalin and Pol Pot can die peacefully in their beds at an advanced old age.

The Christian God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent. If such a God existed, the world would simply not operate in the way it does. Lions can only live by causing intense suffering to gazelles and zebras. It would be a simple matter for God to arrange things in such a way that that didn't happen. I can't see how a world organised in that way is compatible with the existence of a Christian God.

I think there is a respectable intellectual argument for a deist God who created the whole thing and who is morally neutral and doesn't intervene in the world. But the idea of the Christian God who is concerned with human beings and intervenes in the world seems to me completely at odds with the facts.

I was at both Springsteen concerts and got paid for the pleasure doing security, absolutely fantastic both nights, did 3.1/2 hours first night and 4.1/4 the next. I was also at the Billy Graham night.

I am a committed Christian, but I really do not like the word religion, that is a term made by man, and shows how far the established church have moved from what the Bible actually says.
Your paragraph Darren: The Christian God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent. If such a God existed, the world would simply not operate in the way it does. Lions can only live by causing intense suffering to gazelles and zebras. It would be a simple matter for God to arrange things in such a way that that didn't happen. I can't see how a world organised in that way is compatible with the existence of a Christian God.

That is a non christian view of what God is, and we can spend hours on that subject, and hopefully show you why God has left the earth to operate in the way you describe...... however the end of the book says it will all come good, and that is what the Christian Faith is about.

 

[Selly]

Clem Attlee once said apropos Christianity that he believed in the ethics, but not the mumbo jumbo. That just about sums up my position. I don't believe in God or any concept of a future life. I think thats just wishful thinking. However, its pretty obvious to me that my whole ethical, moral and political position is heavily influenced by Chrsitianity.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

Are there beings vastly more powerful that us in the universe? Probably. *
Is it likely that one of these advance races started the big bang? Possibly
Is it likely that they precisely conform to the image projected by any one of the multitude of religions around the world? Not a chance.
Is it likely that they even care about us? Hell no.

*semi related question - 14.5 bn years is more than enough time to colonise the entire universe many times over. So where are the aliens?? We should see evidence everywhere of their existence... See The Fermi Paradox - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

 

[JohnDenver]

On a different, evangelical note, I once was engaged to a young woman whose father was a kind of Sheffield version of Billy Graham, preaching to the masses. He was even a close friend of Billy, having being involved in some way in the bringing of him to Sheffield, and had I actually been stupid enough to have married said wench then apparently the aforementioned fire-and-brimstoneist would have been at the event.

Reminds me of the this bloke:

I knew a few lasses who went to his 9 O'Clock Services. Things like that lead to a degree of caution and scepticism that never quite leaves you...

PS - it's not Rob Newman.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

Are there beings vastly more powerful that us in the universe? Probably. *
Is it likely that one of these advance races started the big bang? Possibly
Is it likely that they precisely conform to the image projected by any one of the multitude of religions around the world? Not a chance.
Is it likely that they even care about us? Hell no.

*semi related question - 14.5 bn years is more than enough time to colonise the entire universe many times over. So where are the aliens?? We should see evidence everywhere of their existence... See The Fermi Paradox - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

 

[Gavlar]

Everything is unlikely if you look at it in a certain way.

Yes, sometimes bad people are punished - but murderous tyrants like Stalin and Pol Pot can die peacefully in their beds at an advanced old age.

The Christian God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent. If such a God existed, the world would simply not operate in the way it does. Lions can only live by causing intense suffering to gazelles and zebras. It would be a simple matter for God to arrange things in such a way that that didn't happen. I can't see how a world organised in that way is compatible with the existence of a Christian God.

I think there is a respectable intellectual argument for a deist God who created the whole thing and who is morally neutral and doesn't intervene in the world. But the idea of the Christian God who is concerned with human beings and intervenes in the world seems to me completely at odds with the facts.

yes sometimes murderous people seem to "get away with it", but God never promises justice on this earth, though he does say we will have to stand before him one day and give account for our actions. He arranged things in such a way to give us free will to live our lives, we really need to take more responsibility for our actions as humans instead of blaming God when things go wrong and people do horrible things to each other.

To put it another way, if life was perfect all the time, why would we need God? People mainly pray to God when things go wrong. Does he answer every prayer? Yes, but not always with a yes, sometimes he says no, or not yet. I do the same with my kids, I could give them all they wanted but it wouldnt be good for them. Do I understand why God allows horrible things? No, but I believe God can and does work things for good, check out this guy who was born with no arms and legs as a brilliant example of this:



all the best,
gavlar

 

[blade too long]

not sure exactly how many were at theBruce Springsteen concert but Wednesday fans reckon they took 6000

 

[alcoblade]

we really need to take more responsibility for our actions as humans instead of blaming God when things go wrong and people do horrible things to each other.

I think most people are doing that over the ages, hence less and less faith in an invisible man in the sky, worshiped by men in dresses (sorry).

UTB

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I think most people are doing that over the ages, hence less and less faith in an invisible man in the sky, worshiped by men in dresses (sorry).

UTB

Exactly, what sort of people do that anyway? (Blame God i mean, not wear dresses....)

 

[Highbury_Blade]

No, but I believe God can and does work things for good, check out this guy who was born with no arms and legs as a brilliant example of this:

What's this got to do with God?

 

[super_pig]

this god .. he's a bit of a vengeful type isn't he?? if you don't do this i'll do this.. or if you won't do that i'll punish you with that.. a bit like a mardy teenager.. i think it is brilliantly stitched up .
if anything goes wrong it is 'your' fault and if anything goes well it is because of him.. can i have that in my contract please

ps i'm putting he/him for simplicities sake.. girls don't be offended

 

[Revolution]

To answer the original question, according to Denis clarebrough's Centenary book:

Springsteen: as someone said upthread, Springsteen attendance was 44,000 for each of the two days
Billy Graham: total attendance over 8 nights was 257,900, with the largest crowd being 47,200

 

[Selly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

I'm not sure which is the scarier thought, that we are truly all alone in the universe, or that life is abundant and we just can't see it yet.

 

[Gavlar]

I think most people are doing that over the ages, hence less and less faith in an invisible man in the sky, worshiped by men in dresses (sorry).

UTB

Are we less selfish as a result? I dont think so. Are there less dictators? Nope.

I believe God put part of himself inside all of us, which is our conscience. thats why we get angry when we see the horrible news, even when it doesnt directly affect us, we feel and recognise life can and should be different/better. Humans need saving from our selfishness, if Christians (including myself) lived in the way Jesus did and loved the way he did, the world would be a radically better in my opinion.

 

[Selly]

Are we less selfish as a result? I dont think so. Are there less dictators? Nope.

I believe God put part of himself inside all of us, which is our conscience. thats why we get angry when we see the horrible news, even when it doesnt directly affect us, we feel and recognise life can and should be different/better. Humans need saving from our selfishness, if Christians (including myself) lived in the way Jesus did and loved the way he did, the world would be a radically better in my opinion.

No, if everyone lived in the way the Bible claims Jesus did, the world would be a better place.

Unless you have a single religion, chances are you will get fundamentalists doing bad things in the name of their particular slant on the magic man in the sky....

 

[Gavlar]

Exactly, what sort of people do that anyway? (Blame God i mean, not wear dresses....)

Lots of people blame God for seeming to not act against evil in the world, the tone of several posts on here show that.

Have you ever seen Bruce almighty? It shows a great example of this with Jim Carrey's character getting angry at God.

 

[Gavlar]

What's this got to do with God?

Have you heard this guy being interviewed? He talks at great length at how God allowed him to be born with this disability and how he feels he has had an even more amazing life because of it. Could God heal him of this? I believe he could but how much more amazing is it to see how some one can live life to the full with huge restrictions placed on them. The bible says Gods power is made perfect in our weakness, this is the clearest example I've ever seen of this.

It also shows how much we need each other, another massive biblical theme.

 

[Gavlar]

this god .. he's a bit of a vengeful type isn't he?? if you don't do this i'll do this.. or if you won't do that i'll punish you with that.. a bit like a mardy teenager.. i think it is brilliantly stitched up .
if anything goes wrong it is 'your' fault and if anything goes well it is because of him.. can i have that in my contract please

ps i'm putting he/him for simplicities sake.. girls don't be offended

I'm not sure where you get this idea from. God has actually given us huge freedom of choice. Sadly many times we abuse that choice and through our own (and my own) selfishness wreck the world we live in and people in it. I'm amazed that God has such patience with us really. God allows us to choose to follow him and Love him or reject him, both choices have consequences. If things go wrong it is as a result of these choices. By the way things still go wrong when you follow God as we live in a broken world and have a real enemy the devil that is fighting against God. But I believe Heaven will be perfect and worth waiting for even though life seems pointless and horrific at times.

As for God being vengeful, the Bible defintion of God is love. But he also hates evil, and one day I believe he will right every wrong, not on this earth though. I'm glad God will punish the abhorrent evil that has occured throughout history, God wouldnt be Love if he wasnt bothered about rape, murder, wars, injustice, inequality etc.

wow! big stuff for a sat morning.
PS I really didnt want to turn into a preacher on here, I hope i'm just defending my beliefs as everyone is, but maybe I'll shut up now!

 

[ZoneManWilf]

I'm not sure which is the scarier thought, that we are truly all alone in the universe, or that life is abundant and we just can't see it yet.

Arthur C Clarke:
"Two possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying."

 

[shorehamview]

Have you ever seen Bruce almighty? It shows a great example of this with Jim Carrey's character getting angry at God.

I've never seen Bruce Almighty because it's got Jim Carrey in it. The man is such an irritating little twat. Surely proof that God may well move in mysterious way, if this one-trick-pony can carve out an acting career.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Lots of people blame God for seeming to not act against evil in the world, the tone of several posts on here show that.

Have you ever seen Bruce almighty? It shows a great example of this with Jim Carrey's character getting angry at God.

I think the tone of losts of posts on here don't blame God at all. They're more using the fact that evil goes unpunished as proof to the non-existence of God.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Have you heard this guy being interviewed? He talks at great length at how God allowed him to be born with this disability and how he feels he has had an even more amazing life because of it. Could God heal him of this? I believe he could but how much more amazing is it to see how some one can live life to the full with huge restrictions placed on them. The bible says Gods power is made perfect in our weakness, this is the clearest example I've ever seen of this.

It also shows how much we need each other, another massive biblical theme.

It's a shame that this Guy had to find God in order to do what he does. He had the power within himself, he didn't need a mystical being to bring it out of him.

Him having no arms or legs is nothing to do with God.

 

[JohnDenver]

if Christians (including myself) lived in the way Jesus did and loved the way he did, the world would be a radically better in my opinion.

The religious people for whom I've oodles of respect for are the ones who do exactly this.

It should be about deeds above words (and dresses, Alco!).

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Could God heal him of this? I believe he could but how much more amazing is it to see how some one can live life to the full with huge restrictions placed on them.

I think it would be pretty amazing if this guy suddenly woke up with a brand new set of arms and legs. And the question of God's existence would be undeniable then.

This Guy is a one in a million person that's using his extreme disability as a force for good. He's lucky he was born into the developed world. What about all the other millions of people who have severe disabilities, many of whom are living in abject poverty and misery?

 

[Mad Mick]

Really interesting and grown up debate. I also call myself a Christian, but in a very loose form. It means for me that Christ existed and he talked some sense. But so did Mohamed and other great people of the world.
I also dallied with spiritualism some years ago and read a very interesting book that was supposed to have been written by spirits (Automatic Writing). I find the whole thing about religion fascinating.
Religion has caused more suffering than any other cause I can think of, and yet has done much good.
What I don't get is why God is always imagined with human traits.
What sort of God would want to be worshiped?
What sort of God would sentence none believers to eternal torture?
What sort of god would punish the human race with such venom, even the devil (If such an entity exists) would be impressed?
What sort of god would allow unthinkable crimes of man against man?
We were even told at school to fear God.
And yet many religions believe their God has such traits.
I do not feel we got here by luck, I also believe its possible we may come back to this world several times.
Its all part of the learning process.
But I'm open to other views and I hope very tolerant.

 

[Darren]

yes sometimes murderous people seem to "get away with it", but God never promises justice on this earth, though he does say we will have to stand before him one day and give account for our actions. He arranged things in such a way to give us free will to live our lives, we really need to take more responsibility for our actions as humans instead of blaming God when things go wrong and people do horrible things to each other.

To put it another way, if life was perfect all the time, why would we need God? People mainly pray to God when things go wrong. Does he answer every prayer? Yes, but not always with a yes, sometimes he says no, or not yet. I do the same with my kids, I could give them all they wanted but it wouldnt be good for them. Do I understand why God allows horrible things? No, but I believe God can and does work things for good, check out this guy who was born with no arms and legs as a brilliant example of this:



all the best,
gavlar

But with all due respect, you just beg the question. You say that "God never promises justice on this earth", which assumes that God exists, which is the whole point at issue.

I can understand why people believe in God and I understand it must give great solace and hope to those who so believe. But in the deepest sense (and I don't mean this perjoratively) belief in God is not rational. It takes a leap of faith. I point out all the way the world operates which seem inconsistent with the existence of God and you explain them away with what is essentially "the God moves in myserious ways argument". Thats because you're not looking at from a logical point of view and weighing the evidence. You have faith in God and anything that conflicts with that faith is explained away, however unconvincing that explanation seems to non-believers.

The free will explnation is unconvincing as it cannot explaing natural diasters (why does God allow thousands to be killed in earthquakes and floods for which humans have no responsibility) and it also doesn't explain cruelty and suffering in the natural world (see my example above).

And even when suffering is caused by humans, the people who suffer are often innocent. For me, one of the most convincing arguments against the existence of the Christiand God is the Aberfan diaster in 1966. Through the negligence of the coal board a slag heap was allowed to become dangerously unstable. The heap was above a primary school. One morning, around ten minutes after school started, the heap collapsed on the school killing virtually all the children and teachers, none, of whom were, of course, responsible for the negligence. Had the heap collapsed a hour ealier (something which one would have expected an omnipotent, omniscient God who cared for human beings to easily contrive) no-one would have been killed and the realisation of what might have happened would no doubt have led to apprpopriate improvements in safety. I don't think many of the bereaved Aberfan parents would find it convincing that their child's death was all for the greater good.

The example of your kids is a poor one becauase you are not omniscient or omnipotent. You therefore have to make choices of the lesser evil. As God is both he does not have to make people suffer for their own long term good.

As I say, if your religious faith helps you in your life, I wouldn't seek to deny it to you, but I am afraid I have never heard a convincing rational argument for a belief in the Christian God. I hear convincing rational arguments for other philosophies and ideologies I disagree with - conservatism, libertarianism, communism and so on - which leads me to beleive that religious belief exists beyond reason and is really akin to poetry and music - it creates a resonance with people that is fundamentally non-rational. It's none the worse for that, but I think that religious believers sell themselves shrot when they seek to argue that their faith is rational - they are fighting on their opponents' ground, rather like the Saracens rugby team playing Manchester United at football and expecting to win. They never will.

Have fun.

Darren

 

[Selly]

Science is rational, faith is not... and the great thing about science...ah nevermind....Neil Degrasse Tyson said it better...

 

[blade too long]

if there was really a god , would we really be in division one, come on , answer that

nice story told by shepherds that has been totally over blown

religion is about control , faith is non manacled bondage,

theres a quarter of the world catholic , a quarter muslim , a quarter non secular and a quarter a thousand different beliefs from sects to buddhism and satanism to mormon , so 3/4 are forced to be wrong and 98% wrong if David Icke is the messiah

what kind of god wants you on your knees 6 times a day , unl;ess hes got ocd about shoe cleanliness

 

[Mad Mick]

Your right about religion and control Blade too Long, I totally agree.
Also look how much money many of these religious orders amass.
Instead of spending on worthy courses, they build churches and other idolic places of worship so that they can perpetuate their particular cult.
I would just take the best bits out of all religions and get rid of places of worship. Speak to your GOD in the garden or park, apparently he's everywhere.