A positive 4-5-1

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Bergen Blade

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
7,152
Reaction score
18,330
Location
Bergen, Norway
Sometimes the 4-5-1 formation is dismissed as negative, but Nigel Clough has managed to make it work well. He's given the right type of players the right type of roles, and the team has gelled.



A team's formation normally describes how a team lines up when they have all players behind the ball and the opposition team starts an attack.



Thus, the formation can't fully describe what happens when the team attacks. Let's have a look at the current preferred XI:





4-5-1%20Formation.jpg











Most of them are actually given licence to bomb forward. Our very mobile full backs are often overlapping, providing width and supplying crosses from wide. Murphy and Flynn are now very direct, running at their full backs, always aiming to get into the box.



Scougall and Coady also regularly get into the box, and they are starting to get on the end of things, chipping in with vital goals. Scougall's ability to glide past players is not just a joy to watch, it is very effective too. I'll be hugely surprised if he doesn't end up playing both international and Premiership football in not too long.



Even the centre halves are making attacking contributions. When space opens up for them they have been encouraged to try running forward on the ball. It has produced goals and it's something that the opposition teams struggle to cope with. When they think they have all our midfielders under control, they may see 6'4 Harry Maguire barging forward on the ball. Who was told to pick him up?



To give balance to all this forward movement Doyle (or the equally effective McGinn) is keeping a deep position most of the time, while the lone striker, Baxter, is also coming short for the ball more than making runs in behind or down the channels. Baxter is not a traditional target man, maybe he's not even a real striker. But his touch, vision and balance is good, which means that he holds the ball up well and brings others into the game. For now at least it has worked, although he's probably a temporary solution.



* * * * *


In contrast, last year's team, usually playing a narrow 4-4-2, was very often static and predictable. Danny Wilson preferred the full backs to defend first and foremost. They were steady and hardly went forward at all.



In the wide midfield positions, players were often selected for their defensive qualities, even if it meant playing out of position - Marcus Williams and David McAllister were examples. In midfield Kevin McDonald had the ability, but was hopelessly out of passing options in a side that became more and more immobile. The two isolated strikers at least had eachother, but the service was often abysmal.



For a while we were very hard to beat, conceded few goals and results were decent. We scored quite a few goals from set pieces. But in the end there was no rhythm, no movement, no idea, and it was painful to watch us.





4-4-2%20Wilson.jpg







(The team above drew 0-0 at Swindon in November 2012 )



The 4-4-2 line up of 2012/13 may have had a striker more, but in terms of attacking threats it doesn't come close to Clough's current 4-5-1.
 

I'm sure I was told I was wrong plenty of times in the last few years when suggesting a "4-5-1" could be more attacking than a "4-4-2" :)
 
4-5-1 was a negative formation for us for many years because it tended to include Nick Montgomery, who contributed absolutely nothing going forward.

It's more about personnel than formation. Weir's formation is used to great effect by EPL teams but would not work for him because of the players he used to play it. If your 1 up front is Ironside, for example, you won't score many.
 
Good analysis.

I think one vital new component to our play is players running at people with the ball directly. Scougall is the kind of player Weir or Wilson would have shoved out on the left wing, but his drives forward from deep lying central positions are very dangerous for the opposition, leading directly to goals vs Shrewsbury and MK. Coady also seems to be more willing now to drive the team forward.

The thing we have sacrificed with this is a direct 'presence' up top, as you say Baxter drops very deep and is not really a 'striker.' Given that most teams in League One however line up in quite distinct 4-4-2s or 4-3-3s/4-5-1s, I think this new system is giving us quite a bit of flexibility and maybe posing some questions of opposition that they aren't used to. And we are still getting players in the box, it seems.

At the end of the day though it is about getting the right players to be able to play their most effective games. Whilst Weir had good intentions in trying to make us into a 'passing' side, he often fell amazingly short in doing this.

Check out the line-up from Carlisle away - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23999217

I know there were some other low points, but this was one of the worst for me. A physical striker with no touch, control, pace, or creativity playing with a team of central midfielders and defenders, with the game plan of just keeping the football, no ideas on how to create chances. The contrast between then and now is extreme.
 
4-5-1 was a negative formation for us for many years because it tended to include Nick Montgomery, who contributed absolutely nothing going forward.

It's more about personnel than formation. Weir's formation is used to great effect by EPL teams but would not work for him because of the players he used to play it. If your 1 up front is Ironside, for example, you won't score many.

You could have got away with only one "m" in that sentence!

Edit - the phrase "going forward" was rather redundant as well.

Helpful hints for economical writers.
:)
 
Sometimes the 4-5-1 formation is dismissed as negative, but Nigel Clough has managed to make it work well. He's given the right type of players the right type of roles, and the team has gelled.



A team's formation normally describes how a team lines up when they have all players behind the ball and the opposition team starts an attack.



Thus, the formation can't fully describe what happens when the team attacks. Let's have a look at the current preferred XI:





4-5-1%20Formation.jpg











Most of them are actually given licence to bomb forward. Our very mobile full backs are often overlapping, providing width and supplying crosses from wide. Murphy and Flynn are now very direct, running at their full backs, always aiming to get into the box.



Scougall and Coady also regularly get into the box, and they are starting to get on the end of things, chipping in with vital goals. Scougall's ability to glide past players is not just a joy to watch, it is very effective too. I'll be hugely surprised if he doesn't end up playing both international and Premiership football in not too long.



Even the centre halves are making attacking contributions. When space opens up for them they have been encouraged to try running forward on the ball. It has produced goals and it's something that the opposition teams struggle to cope with. When they think they have all our midfielders under control, they may see 6'4 Harry Maguire barging forward on the ball. Who was told to pick him up?



To give balance to all this forward movement Doyle (or the equally effective McGinn) is keeping a deep position most of the time, while the lone striker, Baxter, is also coming short for the ball more than making runs in behind or down the channels. Baxter is not a traditional target man, maybe he's not even a real striker. But his touch, vision and balance is good, which means that he holds the ball up well and brings others into the game. For now at least it has worked, although he's probably a temporary solution.



* * * * *


In contrast, last year's team, usually playing a narrow 4-4-2, was very often static and predictable. Danny Wilson preferred the full backs to defend first and foremost. They were steady and hardly went forward at all.



In the wide midfield positions, players were often selected for their defensive qualities, even if it meant playing out of position - Marcus Williams and David McAllister were examples. In midfield Kevin McDonald had the ability, but was hopelessly out of passing options in a side that became more and more immobile. The two isolated strikers at least had eachother, but the service was often abysmal.



For a while we were very hard to beat, conceded few goals and results were decent. We scored quite a few goals from set pieces. But in the end there was no rhythm, no movement, no idea, and it was painful to watch us.





4-4-2%20Wilson.jpg







(The team above drew 0-0 at Swindon in November 2012 )



The 4-4-2 line up of 2012/13 may have had a striker more, but in terms of attacking threats it doesn't come close to Clough's current 4-5-1.


thanks Bergs for your post. a picture tells a thousand words. I have learned a lot from this post
 
Now you all might have to sit down and have a stiff drink, however we do have Porter and Doyle to thank for our up turn in form in many ways. We came across the formation against Fulham when Porter went off injured at Half time and was replaced by Scougs. After Doyle got sent off, we trotted off to Crewe and Nigel played Scougs and Coady as his midfield 2. We got battered. I know we won our next league game, however I think it was soon realised that we needed a midfield 3 as such.

I have always said that Doyle doesn't perform well in a midfield 2, however having Scougs and Coady infront of him has allowed him to sit in and mop up (which is his best trait). Only very occasionally does he lose concentration and go running after the ball in midfield and gets himself out of position, I think most through ball watching from the wrong area of the pitch.

In regards to Porter, he has always lacked a bit of nous in regards to making moves in the box and his finishing has been woeful. I know he is now top scorer through pens, however Blackman lived off this reputation. I have certainly noticed his movement has improved in the box against Fulham and Forest and If he does get a return to the side tonight we are certainly going to see a more improved and confident Porter.

That being said, I would still prefer him to come on in the last 10 minutes and wheel himself up for a pen, however winning breads confidence for the whole squad, not just starters.
 
You could have got away with only one "m" in that sentence!

Edit - the phrase "going forward" was rather redundant as well.

Helpful hints for economical writers.
:)

And yet you missed the 'your' in your excitement to stick the knife in on a youngster who has had less starts than you can count fingers on your left hand.
 
Great post, I agree that a main difference of this 4-5-1 as opposed to Weir's one up front system is the use of width. Nigel has been praised to the heavens (me included) for transforming Flynn and Murphy, what he's done is pushed them wider, given them license (and confidence) to go at players, but also cut inside to support the striker when the need arises and this has created so many more attacking and threatening opportunities in matches.

Previously with 4-2-3-1 the wide players in the 3 were not wide enough and the pace of our play was not sufficient, so we got bogged down with the 2 deeper players playing sideways balls and pulling the 3 supposedly attacking players even deeper. In a premiership 4-2-3-1 at least one of the 2 deeper midfielders usually push up and support attacking play. With Weir, this did not happen because the quality of players wasn't good enough and as a result we had a big lack of attacking options when we did get to the final third, Basically we had 4 attackers and few options.

With this 4-5-1, the 2 central more attacking midfielders (Scougs and Coady) have done such a better job of supporting the attacks giving the wide players options, and slotting into space in front of opposition back 4s. It's no co-incidence that they have been amongst the goals as well as Flynn and Murphy. We now have 5 players regularly getting into attacking positions and generally finding themselves in space because of the greater width of the team. And that's before considering how much better the full backs and even centre backs are also getting forward!

Plus it's really nice to watch, now its starting to click into place.
 
Unfortunately, I thought Porter woeful on Saturday, won very little and as it has already been said lacks the nous to making moves in the box of the ball.
As good as he is at penalties, he is still not very good and I would have thought Paynter a better option on Saturday when Murphy was injured !
I hope Mr Clough doesn't get sentimental because of his two goal salvo v Forest !
Porter has not suddenly become United's answer to Van Persie - he is still not very good !
 
Unfortunately, I thought Porter woeful on Saturday, won very little and as it has already been said lacks the nous to making moves in the box of the ball.
As good as he is at penalties, he is still not very good and I would have thought Paynter a better option on Saturday when Murphy was injured !
I hope Mr Clough doesn't get sentimental because of his two goal salvo v Forest !
Porter has not suddenly become United's answer to Van Persie - he is still not very good !

Watching the highlights though there was that great counter-attack that saw Baxter have a tame shot saved, should have scored - didn't Porter hold up the ball quite well and lay it off neatly? Did that not reflect his overall play?
 
Unfortunately not - His general play was very poor - However that incident did highlight that Baxter is not such a good finisher - that would have closed off the game - as it was we finished under siege for the last 10-15 minutes.
 
Unfortunately not - His general play was very poor - However that incident did highlight that Baxter is not such a good finisher - that would have closed off the game - as it was we finished under siege for the last 10-15 minutes.

Yeah big shame he didn't finish it, was a nicely constructed move.

sheffielder I agree with your point above about coming across formation by accident when Porter had to go off, but I think Scougall had been playing all the game up until then, it was Baxter who came on. Our counterattacks were noticeably more effective from that point.
 
Swap Baxter for Ronaldo, and i like it.

I always play 3-5-2 on football manager, which is tricky cos you need wingers who are absolute demons running down the wing then getting back to help the centre backs. Every game my wingers cover more ground than anybody else in the team. Works well when you dominate games, but is horrible if you don't. I always think...damn...if only i could play 4-5-2 that'd be perfect. but for some reason the meanies at the FA/UEFA/Whoever else don't let you use it. :cool:
 

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Back
Top Bottom