(5 at the) back to the future…

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SGBlade

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Just posted on another thread about this but thought it’s worth further discussion.

I was completely bored by the predictable 532 we’ve put out in recent years and very much welcome the change to a back four with more attacking intent. But…currently this squad looks bang on for 5 at the back. Maybe just a RWB short.

Should we stick with the 4 and make it work? Or think more practically and go back to a 5 for the early season and see who we can bring in Jan or integrate from the youngsters? If we do go to a 3/5, I’m thinking something like:

Cooper

Gilchrist/Anel - Souttar - Robbo/Trusty/RND

New RWB Burrows/McCallum


Souza/Peck - Arblaster/Hamer

Hamer/O’Hare

JRS
Moore
 

I wonder if Wilder is sticking with 4 at the back for the short term just for a clearer "reset". we might see it start to be used more later in the season as the exception rather than the norm?

The other point is that 5 at the back is what the club as a whole has been working around so for academy players etc, they are used to that format so would maybe help some of those youth players move into the 1st team.

Without a RWB, it doesn't work though and apart from Seriki I can't see us trying it until we have that role.
 
Honestly I think 3-4-3 it's more or less what we Played last promotion season, and would suit burrows and seriki better

Anel-souttar -JLT/RND
Seriki -souza -blaster/peck- burrows
O'Hare - Moore - hamer
Or 3-4-2-1 with O'Hare and hamer dropping off a bit
It also means anel and RND can do the overlapping centre halves that CW used to love
 
Not a fan of the 5 when there's no over/underlapping as we leave ourselves short further up the pitch. Much preferred it when we had Bash and JOC creating overloads in the opposition's half. We were lucky that we could rely on the x-factor of NDiaye (and Gibbs-White) for creativity as we were solid but quite uninspiring without them.
Following our recruitment, our strengths now lie in attacking midfield and I wouldn't want to leave anyone out for the sake of accommodating an additional central defender.
 
It baffles me that this is still a point of discussion.

We didn't use a back 3/5 during pre-season. If it were a tactic we were likely to even consider using, I would have expected to see some degree of time investment in the period where results don't matter.

Wilder has spoken in media interviews (especially in pre-season) about the change in style/formation. So it was done consciously, and the intent to change to the back 4 was probably in discussions with the coaching staff and recruitment team well before the end of last season. If we were not going to be playing a 4231, why have we bothered signing wingers?

The recruitment does not explain a back 3 to me. At all. We've signed 2 left backs, who were successful as full backs. Not because of the potential to play them as wing backs. While I could see the potential for McCallum to fill that role, I don't think that is as viable for Burrows, who I would wager as being better as either a pure full back, or a winger, not a mixture of the 2.

We do not have anyone at a senior level capable of playing RWB. Seriki is now injured, and is inexperienced, and Gilchrist is obviously a centre back who has been shoe-horned into a full back role, both at Chelsea and now with us. He does that job well - he is composed on the ball, and does his defensive duties to a decent standard, but he does not carry the ball forward as a wing-back ought to do. He is far more keen to lay the ball off to a midfielder or winger who can perform that role much better.

And I don't believe we have the CB's to perform well enough in a back 3 anymore. When we first did it in League 1, we had Jake Wright, Basham and O'Connell. That then changed in the Championship when we brought Egan in, but the principle remained the same. One man in the middle purely focused on defending - the wide men given licence to get forward, with or without the ball. Anel has not looked competent at that since he recovered from glandular fever in his first season with us, Robinson is not technically competent enough to perform the wide role, and is too prone to mistakes to be the central man. Based on his performance vs Wrexham, I think Trusty might be more comfortable as part of a 2 CB setup. Souttar could be the central man, but questions over his mobility give me the same concerns I had over Egan. And Gilchrist is hampered by the same issue that means he would not be an effective wing back. Were we to play him at RCB, he would not be good enough at carrying the ball forward to be effective.

The alternative is that we play a more conservative back 3, whom all sit back while the rest of the team pushes forward, but why then wouldn't we just have a back 4? You have better coverage across the width of the pitch that way, and an extra body to perhaps not be outnumbered in a counter-attacking scenario.

The back 3 (and the positive stigmas that come with it as Blades in the last 7-8 years), needs to be forgotten as a relic of a previous time. It's clear to me that there is a clear focus on developing the new system, rather than reverting to one that in the last 4 years, has only seen success as a result of being carried by individual brilliance, rather than good team cohesion.
 
Honestly I think 3-4-3 it's more or less what we Played last promotion season, and would suit burrows and seriki better

Anel-souttar -JLT/RND
Seriki -souza -blaster/peck- burrows
O'Hare - Moore - hamer
Or 3-4-2-1 with O'Hare and hamer dropping off a bit
It also means anel and RND can do the overlapping centre halves that CW used to love
I’d totally go for this, it’s what the players we’ve brought in are better suited too.
 
It baffles me that this is still a point of discussion.

We didn't use a back 3/5 during pre-season. If it were a tactic we were likely to even consider using, I would have expected to see some degree of time investment in the period where results don't matter.

Wilder has spoken in media interviews (especially in pre-season) about the change in style/formation. So it was done consciously, and the intent to change to the back 4 was probably in discussions with the coaching staff and recruitment team well before the end of last season. If we were not going to be playing a 4231, why have we bothered signing wingers?

The recruitment does not explain a back 3 to me. At all. We've signed 2 left backs, who were successful as full backs. Not because of the potential to play them as wing backs. While I could see the potential for McCallum to fill that role, I don't think that is as viable for Burrows, who I would wager as being better as either a pure full back, or a winger, not a mixture of the 2.

We do not have anyone at a senior level capable of playing RWB. Seriki is now injured, and is inexperienced, and Gilchrist is obviously a centre back who has been shoe-horned into a full back role, both at Chelsea and now with us. He does that job well - he is composed on the ball, and does his defensive duties to a decent standard, but he does not carry the ball forward as a wing-back ought to do. He is far more keen to lay the ball off to a midfielder or winger who can perform that role much better.

And I don't believe we have the CB's to perform well enough in a back 3 anymore. When we first did it in League 1, we had Jake Wright, Basham and O'Connell. That then changed in the Championship when we brought Egan in, but the principle remained the same. One man in the middle purely focused on defending - the wide men given licence to get forward, with or without the ball. Anel has not looked competent at that since he recovered from glandular fever in his first season with us, Robinson is not technically competent enough to perform the wide role, and is too prone to mistakes to be the central man. Based on his performance vs Wrexham, I think Trusty might be more comfortable as part of a 2 CB setup. Souttar could be the central man, but questions over his mobility give me the same concerns I had over Egan. And Gilchrist is hampered by the same issue that means he would not be an effective wing back. Were we to play him at RCB, he would not be good enough at carrying the ball forward to be effective.

The alternative is that we play a more conservative back 3, whom all sit back while the rest of the team pushes forward, but why then wouldn't we just have a back 4? You have better coverage across the width of the pitch that way, and an extra body to perhaps not be outnumbered in a counter-attacking scenario.

The back 3 (and the positive stigmas that come with it as Blades in the last 7-8 years), needs to be forgotten as a relic of a previous time. It's clear to me that there is a clear focus on developing the new system, rather than reverting to one that in the last 4 years, has only seen success as a result of being carried by individual brilliance, rather than good team cohesion.
Don’t disagree with much of that mate. Other than to say I’d like us to develop a squad in the medium term with the tactical and technical ability to play two or three different formations, including switching between a 4 and a 5. If a couple of key players get injured or manager leaves mid season and you’re only able to play one way, you’re really limiting yourselves.

Obviously there will be a preferred formation to any team. But my main gripe with the old formation wasn’t really 532 itself (fashions come and go in football just like anything else), more the predictability of it.

I wouldn’t be horrified if we went to a back five for the next 10 games and ground out some results whilst the squad beds in. As long as it was still the aim to have a team capable of playing 4231 on the front foot by the end of the season.
 
If a couple of key players get injured or manager leaves mid season and you’re only able to play one way, you’re really limiting yourselves.
Yep, for sure. However, a change of style does not mandate a change in defensive numbers. There are enough options for how to set up in midfield and attack, that you could have 3 or 4 different tactical setups, and have them all use a back 4.

We're currently playing a 4231. If we want to control possession in the midfield more, you swap O'Hare and Hamer around, pull Hamer deeper, put Blaster alongside him and Souza sitting deep as defensive protection, and you've got a 433.

You can drop the wide players into more conservative positions and go 4411. Or even push O'Hare up alongside Moore for a 442. And with the number of midfield options we have, you could play a 442 diamond.

All styles of play which have similarities in some ways, but can perform drastically differently in others.

For far too long, the back 3 has been the area where (to me) we have looked the weakest. Even with first choice players, rather than grabbing any defender with a pulse like we had to do at times last season. We played that way for so long that it became easy to identify how to break us down, to the point where we were so bad last year that we were basically doing that ourselves.

I believe it is healthier for the team in general, and for the defence in specific, that we move away from a defensive formation which led us to set records last year. To work from a clean slate, rather than forcing players to persist with a style which has, in many aspects, been found out at this point.
 
4 at the back seems to be our standard formation now, but I think Wilder wants us to be able to change to 3/5 at the back during games if we need to.
 
Soutter looks ideally suited to the Egan role and more than handy aerially.

My own thought is that it is just a matter of time until we see this :-

Seriki (or New RWB), Anel or Alfie, Soutter, Robbo or RND, Burrows or Sam Mac.

UTB
 
I would like a back 5 when we are trying to see games out.

Once the right backs come back fit we seem to have it ready made if needs be.
 
It baffles me that this is still a point of discussion.

We didn't use a back 3/5 during pre-season. If it were a tactic we were likely to even consider using, I would have expected to see some degree of time investment in the period where results don't matter.

Wilder has spoken in media interviews (especially in pre-season) about the change in style/formation. So it was done consciously, and the intent to change to the back 4 was probably in discussions with the coaching staff and recruitment team well before the end of last season. If we were not going to be playing a 4231, why have we bothered signing wingers?

The recruitment does not explain a back 3 to me. At all. We've signed 2 left backs, who were successful as full backs. Not because of the potential to play them as wing backs. While I could see the potential for McCallum to fill that role, I don't think that is as viable for Burrows, who I would wager as being better as either a pure full back, or a winger, not a mixture of the 2.

We do not have anyone at a senior level capable of playing RWB. Seriki is now injured, and is inexperienced, and Gilchrist is obviously a centre back who has been shoe-horned into a full back role, both at Chelsea and now with us. He does that job well - he is composed on the ball, and does his defensive duties to a decent standard, but he does not carry the ball forward as a wing-back ought to do. He is far more keen to lay the ball off to a midfielder or winger who can perform that role much better.

And I don't believe we have the CB's to perform well enough in a back 3 anymore. When we first did it in League 1, we had Jake Wright, Basham and O'Connell. That then changed in the Championship when we brought Egan in, but the principle remained the same. One man in the middle purely focused on defending - the wide men given licence to get forward, with or without the ball. Anel has not looked competent at that since he recovered from glandular fever in his first season with us, Robinson is not technically competent enough to perform the wide role, and is too prone to mistakes to be the central man. Based on his performance vs Wrexham, I think Trusty might be more comfortable as part of a 2 CB setup. Souttar could be the central man, but questions over his mobility give me the same concerns I had over Egan. And Gilchrist is hampered by the same issue that means he would not be an effective wing back. Were we to play him at RCB, he would not be good enough at carrying the ball forward to be effective.

The alternative is that we play a more conservative back 3, whom all sit back while the rest of the team pushes forward, but why then wouldn't we just have a back 4? You have better coverage across the width of the pitch that way, and an extra body to perhaps not be outnumbered in a counter-attacking scenario.

The back 3 (and the positive stigmas that come with it as Blades in the last 7-8 years), needs to be forgotten as a relic of a previous time. It's clear to me that there is a clear focus on developing the new system, rather than reverting to one that in the last 4 years, has only seen success as a result of being carried by individual brilliance, rather than good team cohesion.

Yup. Wilder even mentioned in one interview that the academy teams were also doing well learning the new system.

There's a small subset of fans who think because we once had success with 3-5-2 years ago we should stick with it forever.

Thankfully thats a minority that seems to be getting smaller and smaller.
 

The four at the back isn't the problem so far this season. It's the gap between the midfield 2 of Arblaster/Souza and the midfield 3 of Hamer/O'Hare/Brooks.

As some have posted, perhaps this just needs a switch of Hamer for Souza and bring in Rak-Sakyi when ready, or just Arblaster to carry the ball more or O'Hare to drop back to show for it.

I really don't see changing back to a 3-5-2 working for us anymore. As said above, it worked when we created overloads through overlapping centre backs, but we haven't had those for 4 seasons now.

Out with the old, in with the new.
 
The four at the back isn't the problem so far this season. It's the gap between the midfield 2 of Arblaster/Souza and the midfield 3 of Hamer/O'Hare/Brooks.

As some have posted, perhaps this just needs a switch of Hamer for Souza and bring in Rak-Sakyi when ready, or just Arblaster to carry the ball more or O'Hare to drop back to show for it.

I really don't see changing back to a 3-5-2 working for us anymore. As said above, it worked when we created overloads through overlapping centre backs, but we haven't had those for 4 seasons now.

Out with the old, in with the new.

To be clear, I largely agree with you and jono. I’m as happy as anyone we’re moving away from the dull 532 we’ve seen in recent years. But i do think:
A) top teams at any level have tactical flexibility both in game and as a squad overall. Keeps opposition guessing, reduces the impact of injuries and creates a squad that can work under different coaches / managers, should the need arise. They’ll always be a ‘main’ tactic, but we’ll probably be just as bored of 4231 in 3 years of that’s all we can ever play.
B) at this exact moment we’ll probably get better results in the short term with a 5 than a 4. It’s a quirk of the current state of the squad build.

TBF im not sure what’s best - probably taking the hit on results in the short term to bed in the new system is actually the right way to go. But I do think writing off other tactics completely will be to our detriment.
 
i think wilder will stick with 4231 for now know moore isnt pulling any trees up but do think he will get better but what we really need is competition for moore we have to bring another striker in this window maybe cannon is that man
 
Soutter looks ideally suited to the Egan role and more than handy aerially.

My own thought is that it is just a matter of time until we see this :-

Seriki (or New RWB), Anel or Alfie, Soutter, Robbo or RND, Burrows or Sam Mac.

UTB
Just a matter of time 👀.

UTB
 
Yup. Wilder even mentioned in one interview that the academy teams were also doing well learning the new system.

There's a small subset of fans who think because we once had success with 3-5-2 years ago we should stick with it forever.

Thankfully thats a minority that seems to be getting smaller and smaller.
Well they’ve played 3 at the back and 4 at the back and not won anything in my lifetime so I’d say they’re about as successful as each other! 🤣
 
It's never been about systems. Any system will work when played effectively. 3-5-2 stopped working because we stopped playing it effectively, not because 3-5-2 suddenly became an intrinsically bad system. The clamour to change it was naive given the make up of the squad and the financial realities we faced. It has made the overhaul of the squad much more difficult and time consuming as now we have to change more personnel, integrate a new style, and basically revolutionise everything on the fly. It's no different to when the rather naive cheque book Slav failed to do the obvious until he was on the brink of being sacked.The fans that wanted revolution should be the same fans most loudly advocating patience: the more change you have the more patience is needed. It's very early days.
 
Got to admit I am a little surprised we didn't stick with the 4 3 3 that we changed to last year but immediately changed yet again.

We do have more flexibility now but that doesn't mean we should never use 5 at the back again imo
 
Whilst I hear the arguments for 3/5 at the back, currently our strength is our midfield and we're already struggling to get all of Hamer, O'Hare, Blaster, and Souza onto the pitch. I'm hesitant to add an extra defender in, making that conundrum even harder to achieve.
 
Whilst I hear the arguments for 3/5 at the back, currently our strength is our midfield and we're already struggling to get all of Hamer, O'Hare, Blaster, and Souza onto the pitch. I'm hesitant to add an extra defender in, making that conundrum even harder to achieve.
hamers best position has been sacrificed to get o'hare in the team complete waste of one of the best goalscoring midfielders in the championship by playing him wide left the sooner wilder realises this the better
 
Formations
Just posted on another thread about this but thought it’s worth further discussion.

I was completely bored by the predictable 532 we’ve put out in recent years and very much welcome the change to a back four with more attacking intent. But…currently this squad looks bang on for 5 at the back. Maybe just a RWB short.

Should we stick with the 4 and make it work? Or think more practically and go back to a 5 for the early season and see who we can bring in Jan or integrate from the youngsters? If we do go to a 3/5, I’m thinking something like:

Cooper

Gilchrist/Anel - Souttar - Robbo/Trusty/RND

New RWB Burrows/McCallum


Souza/Peck - Arblaster/Hamer

Hamer/O’Hare

JRS
Moore
Tactics not formations.
If you piss about mindlessly at the back with 4 or 5 you LOSE against good players/teams.
As we proved endlessly last season. Soton etc this.
Said all season. We have wing backs not full backs. (Gilchrist small centre back not lightening)
Pretentious fashionable halfwit change not experienced or fact based - NEVER questioned as no one in media cares about #sufc just Wendy
I came to conclusion proper football with Sooty right Jack Left hitting long early passes Anel sweeping and when able building from the middle like Peck has done recently was the way to go.
Sadly Lost Sooty which with Wilder playing this imbecilic way will end promotion hopes as it stops us winning by force of quality despite tactics.
McDonkey back would round off another criminal waste under #Wilder.
 
Formations

Tactics not formations.
If you piss about mindlessly at the back with 4 or 5 you LOSE against good players/teams.
As we proved endlessly last season. Soton etc this.
Said all season. We have wing backs not full backs. (Gilchrist small centre back not lightening)
Pretentious fashionable halfwit change not experienced or fact based - NEVER questioned as no one in media cares about #sufc just Wendy
I came to conclusion proper football with Sooty right Jack Left hitting long early passes Anel sweeping and when able building from the middle like Peck has done recently was the way to go.
Sadly Lost Sooty which with Wilder playing this imbecilic way will end promotion hopes as it stops us winning by force of quality despite tactics.
McDonkey back would round off another criminal waste under #Wilder.
Go and angrily throw some grit down outside to get it out of your system.
 
Formations

Tactics not formations.
If you piss about mindlessly at the back with 4 or 5 you LOSE against good players/teams.
As we proved endlessly last season. Soton etc this.
Said all season. We have wing backs not full backs. (Gilchrist small centre back not lightening)
Pretentious fashionable halfwit change not experienced or fact based - NEVER questioned as no one in media cares about #sufc just Wendy
I came to conclusion proper football with Sooty right Jack Left hitting long early passes Anel sweeping and when able building from the middle like Peck has done recently was the way to go.
Sadly Lost Sooty which with Wilder playing this imbecilic way will end promotion hopes as it stops us winning by force of quality despite tactics.
McDonkey back would round off another criminal waste under #Wilder.
Perhaps revisit in early February
 
Formations

Tactics not formations.
If you piss about mindlessly at the back with 4 or 5 you LOSE against good players/teams.
As we proved endlessly last season. Soton etc this.
Said all season. We have wing backs not full backs. (Gilchrist small centre back not lightening)
Pretentious fashionable halfwit change not experienced or fact based - NEVER questioned as no one in media cares about #sufc just Wendy
I came to conclusion proper football with Sooty right Jack Left hitting long early passes Anel sweeping and when able building from the middle like Peck has done recently was the way to go.
Sadly Lost Sooty which with Wilder playing this imbecilic way will end promotion hopes as it stops us winning by force of quality despite tactics.
McDonkey back would round off another criminal waste under #Wilder.
You've not watched us much this season, have you?
 

Formations

Tactics not formations.
If you piss about mindlessly at the back with 4 or 5 you LOSE against good players/teams.
As we proved endlessly last season. Soton etc this.
Said all season. We have wing backs not full backs. (Gilchrist small centre back not lightening)
Pretentious fashionable halfwit change not experienced or fact based - NEVER questioned as no one in media cares about #sufc just Wendy
I came to conclusion proper football with Sooty right Jack Left hitting long early passes Anel sweeping and when able building from the middle like Peck has done recently was the way to go.
Sadly Lost Sooty which with Wilder playing this imbecilic way will end promotion hopes as it stops us winning by force of quality despite tactics.
McDonkey back would round off another criminal waste under #Wilder.
Happy new year!
 

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