100 years without a trophy, 10 failed play-off attempts, why have we underachieved as a football club?

[FMBlade1]

Following on from this thread:

https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/the-loser-mentality-at-this-club.103699/

I thought to put some of the reasons offered onto a poll and let people contribute- you can pick more up to three options as well as rejecting the premise of the question.

There will be some strong disagreements and perhaps its all of them to an extent but will be interesting to see what people think are the top three main factors.

There are things we have done well (our academy) and we have had a few good cup runs, so this poll/thread isn't designed to slag people off.

I've put some rather radical/arguably illogical options not because I propose them as reasons but to give as many perspectives as possible. I also recognise that this is a very simplistic method covering a significant period of time.

If there's something I've not mentioned feel free to comment and other people can 'like' those posts.

 

[Cheeky Blade]

Multiple reasons.

I put we haven’t underachieved, at least not recently. It’s true we’ve not had a ‘sugar daddy’ owner willing to spend ( relatively) big at the top levels, rather owners struggling to keep the ship afloat.

You need a bit of ‘luck’ to win owt but I don’t think that’s a substitute for money when it comes to winning a trophy and pushing at the top end of the Prem, as we’ve seen with Palace this season.

 

[FMBlade1]

Multiple reasons.

I put we haven’t underachieved, at least not recently. It’s true we’ve not had a ‘sugar daddy’ owner willing to spend ( relatively) big at the top levels, rather owners struggling to keep the ship afloat.

You need a bit of ‘luck’ to win owt but I don’t think that’s a substitute for money when it comes to winning a trophy and pushing at the top end of the Prem, as we’ve seen with Palace this season.

Crystal Palace really annoy me as we were in the same place as them in 2010 and unlike us they had been in administration.

They got promoted through the play-offs and managed to stay up and build something and establish themselves in the PL, won a cup and now will play in Europe.

I'm sure the fact they are based in London helps massively to attract/keep players and it means their catchment pull for their academy is far great than ours (even if they have to compete with other London clubs).

Edit:

On this theme it reminds me when we tried to sign Anthony Robinson. It was a good spot by our recruitment department. However could we really compete with Fulham, another London club, who then offered him over £50k a week? Of course we couldn't. Now he's the one of the best left-backs in Europe so what hope do we ever have of recruiting such players?

 

[SwissBlade]

Following on from this thread:

https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/the-loser-mentality-at-this-club.103699/

I thought to put some of the reasons offered onto a poll and let people contribute- you can pick more up to three options as well as rejecting the premise of the question.

There will be some strong disagreements and perhaps its all of them to an extent but will be interesting to see what people think are the top three main factors.

There are things we have done well (our academy) and we have had a few good cup runs, so this poll/thread isn't designed to slag people off.

I've put some rather radical/arguably illogical options not because I propose them as reasons but to give as many perspectives as possible. I also recognise that this is a very simplistic method covering a significant period of time.

If there's something I've not mentioned feel free to comment and other people can 'like' those posts.

Oooff where do we start with this. I think I could’ve picked a lot or all of those options. It’s never just one thing.

A lot of our mentality is shared across so many aspects of Sheffield and South Yorkshire life, it feels wrong to celebrate success. It’s an inward look, but we don’t look to compete and be the best against other cities, but look inward to how others in Sheffield will see us. It’s what keeps the city grounded but also perhaps holds the city back.

But there are a number of things, which stand out for me specific to our club. The key thing that brings it all together and is also our strength is the underdog mentality. We’re always the plucky underdog and it’s given us some remarkable successes, small wins which feel huge at the time.

Linked to this, it’s rare to see managers or players make big statements. This isn’t about Wilder but two examples. In 2019 we looked up the league we didn’t focus on those behind and we had a different mentality of deserving to be up there. This time around for a multitude of reasons, we’ve changed mentality. We had to as we’d had such a torrid season last year, plus the summer was tough for all but we recruited fantastically to get a side capable of such a high points tally with the back drop of turmoil with the takeover.

What always gets me is that when we have setbacks like relegation, we take longer to recover. Again, lots of reasons, the stability and continuity is often lying behind it, sacking managers, ownership issues, bad luck, legal challenges, player turnover. We then seem to defy the odds when we do come back. And we come back roaring only to hit road blocks

How do we change this? It’s a whole club problem. The owners vision and road map must be clear within the club and fans should be on board, not just ready to mock “think Liverpool” or “Europe in 5 years” but they also need to be backing these visions…

Sacking managers, letting player contracts run down, selling players without a replacement, these are all huge areas of short sightedness. We can improve facilities and work on methods to keep players fitter, but the policies at the club, the style of the manager and academy have to be aligned so that players are coming in earlier.

We have to be more positive and forward thinking, not admiring a success of finishing third, but working out the plan to ensure that we don’t finish lower than top again. The goal has to be to win not to scrape by

 

[loyalblade95]

The whole winning trophies argument is always a debate that never ends.

Don't forget, there are only 3 major domestic trophies to win in English Football that actually count towards club success.

The PL/old 1st division title, Fa Cup and League Cup.

None of the EFL titles count towards club success, if they did count those trophies/titles, then Sunderland would be up there as one of the most successful English clubs in terms of trophies, given how many none PL/old 1st division titles they've won over the years (it's a lot).

We've got a nice little record that we share with only 4 other clubs as well, we're one of only 5 teams to have won all 4 divisions of English Football, which we finally achieved in 2017 after winning L1.

Burnley, Wolves, Preston and Portsmouth are the only other teams to achieve that.

 

[Selly]

You need a bit of ‘luck’ to win owt but I don’t think that’s a substitute for money when it comes to winning a trophy and pushing at the top end of the Prem, as we’ve seen with Palace this season.

You need both, and money puts you into the situation to take advantage of that luck more often.

For me it's a series of bad luck/preposterous situations coupled with having owners with not quite deep enough pockets.

On the luck/preposterous bit, I think you'd struggle to find a club that could match the following in the last 30+ years

• Relegated in the last minute having been winning at 75 mins and needing a series of other results to go against us - the season before only 2 teams go up from the 1st div
• Lose a PO final to a wonder goal in the last minute
• Save of the century David Seaman
• 3 down at HT in a PO final
• Losing at home to get relegated and again seeing other results not go our way (specifically a team looking completely relegated winning 7/9)
• Tevez
• Playoffs with no strikers due to injuries
• Ched
• Losing a Penalty shoot out when you opponents Gail to score any of their first 3
• Scoring 5 away from home in a PO semi and still not winning
• COVID derailing our best season in living memory
• VAR in a PO final, winning on 75 mins - lost at 90

It is no wonder we think we are cursed.

 

[Cheeky Blade]

Think this is the key.

money puts you into the situation to take advantage of that luck more often

Sure other clubs could knock out lists of their own ‘misfortunes’.

 

[Selly]

The whole winning trophies argument is always a debate that never ends.

Don't forget, there are only 3 major domestic trophies to win in English Football that actually count towards club success.

The PL/old 1st division title, Fa Cup and League Cup.

None of the EFL titles count towards club success, if they did count those trophies/titles, then Sunderland would be up there as one of the most successful English clubs in terms of trophies, given how many none PL/old 1st division titles they've won over the years (it's a lot).

We've got a nice little record that we share with only 4 other clubs as well, we're one of only 5 teams to have won all 4 divisions of English Football, which we finally achieved in 2017 after winning L1.

Burnley, Wolves, Preston and Portsmouth are the only other teams to achieve that.

Should a club our size have won a trophey in the last 100 years - probably.

Should a club our size have reached a final in the last 89 years - definitely.

Should a club our size have managed to win at least 1/5 PO finals in the last 35 years - the stars of other clubs who have reached that many finals indicated we probably should.

That we have done NONE of these is poor.

 

[Selly]

Think this is the key.



Sure other clubs could knock out lists of their own ‘misfortunes’.

I'm sure they could. I'd wager none of them have quite as many improbable instances

 

[CarlMcBlade]

So long as we’re above the Wendy’s…Life couldn’t be better…

 

[CarlMcBlade]

…Sunderland have a real giant as a rival to spur them on…Ours is only an imaginary giant.

 

[FMBlade1]

The whole winning trophies argument is always a debate that never ends.

Don't forget, there are only 3 major domestic trophies to win in English Football that actually count towards club success.

The PL/old 1st division title, Fa Cup and League Cup.

None of the EFL titles count towards club success, if they did count those trophies/titles, then Sunderland would be up there as one of the most successful English clubs in terms of trophies, given how many none PL/old 1st division titles they've won over the years (it's a lot).

*This is a few months out of date as excludes Liverpool's recent title, Spurs winning the Europa League and Palace winning the FA Cup

Its a fair argument and we are certainly not alone, but looking at the above table we don't fare too well.

You could also note that the likes of Watford, Millwall and Hull have all played in FA Cup finals this millennium.

 

[FMBlade1]

…Sunderland have a real giant as a rival to spur them on…Ours is only an imaginary giant.

Its an interesting point which I raised in the other thread as well.

SWFC have also arguably underachieved over the years, is that a coincidence? There was an interesting 442 article that explores this:

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...field-united-vs-sheffield-wednesday-more-game

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Where is the "football gods" and "hans segars relegated us" or "there's a conspiracy against poor old us"

Tired of hearing it TBH

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

I think the story so far would be partly be bad stewardship of the club and part about being unmarketable on the global stage.
Kev McCabe for example couldn't appoint a decent manager if his life depended on it.
Then you've got owners who would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like when we sold Dean and Fjortoft on the same day in the Mike McDonald era.
More recently Bonnie Prince Skinto just couldn't handle the financial realities of the Prem.

How many times have we had more than 2 amazing players at the club at the same time? We generally sell quality talent rather than attract more quality talent.

There probably is something to be said for Sheffield being quite "unsexy" compared to cities like Manchester, Liverpool and London. We're a marketers nightmare, how do you sell "Sheffield" to foreign people looking for an English club to support? We don't have a history littered with achievements, and we're not a city that's good for tourism like Liverpool/London or even a thriving business location like Leeds.

When you consider our complete lack of success over 100 years, our attendances really are quite tremendous. That's probably the one thing we've got going for us really.

 

[Cheeky Blade]

…Sunderland have a real giant as a rival to spur them on…Ours is only an imaginary giant.

BFPG?

 

[NAnstonblade]

For me, you have to have 'a measure' i.e.we have underachieved when compared to whom? Do we see ourselves as a Premier league bottom half club? Given all the facts (and let's not slip into Piggy deludamol territory) - with what we have where should we be?

 

[Cheets]

You need both, and money puts you into the situation to take advantage of that luck more often.

For me it's a series of bad luck/preposterous situations coupled with having owners with not quite deep enough pockets.

On the luck/preposterous bit, I think you'd struggle to find a club that could match the following in the last 30+ years

• Relegated in the last minute having been winning at 75 mins and needing a series of other results to go against us - the season before only 2 teams go up from the 1st div
• Lose a PO final to a wonder goal in the last minute
• Save of the century David Seaman
• 3 down at HT in a PO final
• Losing at home to get relegated and again seeing other results not go our way (specifically a team looking completely relegated winning 7/9)
• Tevez
• Playoffs with no strikers due to injuries
• Ched
• Losing a Penalty shoot out when you opponents Gail to score any of their first 3
• Scoring 5 away from home in a PO semi and still not winning
• COVID derailing our best season in living memory
• VAR in a PO final, winning on 75 mins - lost at 90

It is no wonder we think we are cursed.

Good job you haven't gone back 44 years to 1981.

 

[UddersBlade]

Think this is the key.



Sure other clubs could knock out lists of their own ‘misfortunes’.

Go on then…… find me one worse than ours!! I’ve discussed this at length many times up here with Hudds Town, Bradford City, Leeds, Halifax fans & they cannot believe our list of cock ups!

 

[programmechap]

Should a club our size have won a trophey in the last 100 years - probably.

Should a club our size have reached a final in the last 89 years - definitely.

Should a club our size have managed to win at least 1/5 PO finals in the last 35 years - the stars of other clubs who have reached that many finals indicated we probably should.

That we have done NONE of these is poor.

Since we last won a major trophy in 1925 42 clubs have won a major trophy

Since we last appeared in a final in 1936 52 clubs have done so.

36 English clubs have appeared in major European competition. United never have.

Our average league position Since 1925 is 27th, so we should definitely have won something/been in a final/been in Europe since 1925.

I can't think any club comes close in terms of under achievement.

 

[FMBlade1]

Go on then…… find me one worse than ours!! I’ve discussed this at length many times up here with Hudds Town, Bradford City, Leeds, Halifax fans & they cannot believe our list of cock ups!

At a fans forum in May 2016, less than a fortnight after [Evans's] conviction was quashed, the chairman and co-owner, Kevin McCabe, in his introduction before answering the usual questions on player sales and transfer targets after another failed attempt to get out of the third tier, was revealing about the psyche of the club.

“We should undoubtedly have escaped League One back in 2012, the slam dunk automatic promotion we were robbed of because of the unfortunate incident of Ched Evans.

“No other club get these extraordinary events that hit you at exactly the wrong time of the season. I do talk about it when I’m around football supporters from other clubs and they begin to talk about some of their incidents: they’re nothing like ours. They don’t have a Ched Evans issue, they don’t have a Carlos Tevez affair [who kept West Ham in the Premier League at United’s expense in 2006-7].”

From the Guardian.

Bad luck certainly does come into it our failings.

At the same time regarding Tevez I was more annoyed not that West Ham signed him, it was that we didn't.

 

[nopigfansintown]

United won the top division in 1945/6.

That aside it all boils down to shocking ownership. Our best owner since WW2 by a distance is Kevin McCabe. After that statement the rest is superfluous really. McCabe's job was to undo the incredible volume of damage done by a lot of his predecessors. These accumulated bad decisions left us miles behind what most of us would consider peer clubs (and clubs beneath us). This of course manifested itself on the pitch and in the stands (crowds rose exponentially under McCabe). He didn't finish the job largely because of bad on field decisions that he was ultimately responsible for. But we closed the gap whilst the pigs imitated us (they still are).

This is the reason you'll never hear me knocking owners for directing money into infrastructure: one or two good managers and you rise quickly.

There was a period under Bassett where his own peculiar genius had us punching miles above our weight. That's why his period in charge should never be forgotten or underestimated.

 

[programmechap]

View attachment 212286


*This is a few months out of date as excludes Liverpool's recent title, Spurs winning the Europa League and Palace winning the FA Cup

Its a fair argument and we are certainly not alone, but looking at the above table we don't fare too well.

You could also note that the likes of Watford, Millwall and Hull have all played in FA Cup finals this millennium.

All but Bournemouth, Bristol City, Plymouth and Brentford have played in a final since 1983 and all those 4 teams have spent the vast majority of their recent history outside the top flight - 15 top flight seasons altogether between them since WWII , United having 26.

 

[Cheeky Blade]

Go on then…… find me one worse than ours!! I’ve discussed this at length many times up here with Hudds Town, Bradford City, Leeds, Halifax fans & they cannot believe our list of cock ups!

You might be right, I don’t know those teams detailed histories…guess point being all fans love a moan about their teams failings.

 

[loyalblade95]

Should a club our size have won a trophey in the last 100 years - probably.

Should a club our size have reached a final in the last 89 years - definitely.

Should a club our size have managed to win at least 1/5 PO finals in the last 35 years - the stars of other clubs who have reached that many finals indicated we probably should.

That we have done NONE of these is poor.

True.

I get why they only use the major trophies as a measure of club success (I suppose it simplifies things in a way), but I don't wholy agree with it, as to me it leaves out parts of club success.

While we have won a trophy as recently 2017 (League One Title), it's not classed as a major trophy so it won't be counted as part of our success.

Look at Birmingham, they've just smashed the points record to win L1 (that new points record will never be broken), but because it's a L1 title, it will never be used to measure their success as a club.

Its why that FA Cup win was classed as Palace's first trophy, because it is their first major trophy.

But given their history outside of the top flight, surely they will have won league titles in the lower divisions in the past.

 

[loyalblade95]

Since we last won a major trophy in 1925 42 clubs have won a major trophy

Since we last appeared in a final in 1936 52 clubs have done so.

36 English clubs have appeared in major European competition. United never have.

Our average league position Since 1925 is 27th, so we should definitely have won something/been in a final/been in Europe since 1925.

I can't think any club comes close in terms of under achievement.

I don't know if I'd call it underachievement, more a little exaggerated, especially when you listen to their fans.

Leeds.

Don't get me wrong, they are a big club, but have they actually won all that much in terms of major trophies?

They've won what, 2/3 top division league titles and 1 FA Cup?

 

[Brian Deane]

Weerz Everything option

 

[UddersBlade]

I don't know if I'd call it underachievement, more a little exaggerated, especially when you listen to their fans.

Leeds.

Don't get me wrong, they are a big club, but have they actually won all that much in terms of major trophies?

They've won what, 2/3 top division league titles and 1 FA Cup?

Yes but everyone is dead who was alive to see our last FACup win in 1926!

 

[cahill]

No accident that southern clubs are currently to the fore whereas they were historically down the pecking order ie. Fulham, Palace, Brighton, Brentford, B’muff.

Add on the big London clubs who Arsenal apart have been in the second tier.

The north generally has been left behind

 

[programmechap]

I don't know if I'd call it underachievement, more a little exaggerated, especially when you listen to their fans.

Leeds.

Don't get me wrong, they are a big club, but have they actually won all that much in terms of major trophies?

They've won what, 2/3 top division league titles and 1 FA Cup?

They've won 7 major trophies and reached 6 other finals as well as more tgan 10 seasons in Europe in my lifetime (I'm 58).

In that period, we've managed 7 losing semi finals and a highest league position of 6th...