“The pyramid is broken”

[Moan? Nope-I saw Longhorn]

Luton
Derby
Sunderland
Watford
Middlesbrough
Hull
Cardiff

Aye
Could easily add Southampton & Leicester n’all

 

[Balham]

Exactly what I said. It's the most attended league In the world, every stadium is sold out every week basically other than when we are in the league.

We sold out most weeks in 2019/20. 2020/21 was played out behind closed doors. 2023/24 is the exception because we were so piss poor.

We still filled Bramall Lane more on our way to 16 points than Fulham have filled Craven Cottage either last season or this.

 

[Tuns25]

Leeds could well stay up so if went up we'd to finish above two teams currently in the PL. Assuming last season's promoted go down we're looking at monumental improvement to stay up.

 

[jono_t2000]

The article focuses on the teams promoted to the PL but can't be that enjoyable being a perennial middle table also ran.

What do teams like Palace have to hope for when the season kicks off for example.

 

[ATL Recs]

Exactly what I said. It's the most attended league In the world, every stadium is sold out every week basically other than when we are in the league.

That started to happen last season after the 0-8 home defeat and the pathetic performances that happened there after however capacity % over the season was still higher than
Palace
Liverpool
Bournemouth
And 0-1 % worse than Fulham and 0.2% worse than Forest

 

[ATL Recs]

We sold out most weeks in 2019/20. 2020/21 was played out behind closed doors. 2023/24 is the exception because we were so piss poor.

We still filled Bramall Lane more on our way to 16 points than Fulham have filled Craven Cottage either last season or this.

Three clubs had lower capacity % attendance than us and ours was only 0.1 and 0.2 behind Fulham and Forest

 

[Blademan18891889]

We sold out most weeks in 2019/20. 2020/21 was played out behind closed doors. 2023/24 is the exception because we were so piss poor.

We still filled Bramall Lane more on our way to 16 points than Fulham have filled Craven Cottage either last season or this.

We sold out twice in 19/20. Man utd and Watford. We also sold out twice last season. Man utd and Luton. Without checking I'm pretty certain craven cottage will have been full on more than 2 occasions this season. I could be wrong like. We filled our ground more times in heckys promotion season than any of our prem seasons, infact probably more in that season than both our prem seasons together. I quite like the fact we don't have a load of glory fans tbh.

 

[GymClassHero]

Dear oh dear the tone on that article is shocking, talk of monks making carvings and mezzanine clubs, it's very London, isn't it.

In old money we're a yo-yo club.

I agree that the failure payments are a benefit to the relegated sides, but without them, i'm not sure how sides going up could even invest in better players.

I did a very quick check on when each club was last in the Top Tier and last in the 3rd tier, since the formation of the Premier League and tabulated it below:

Club	Top Tier	3rd Tier
Leeds United	2023	N/A
SUFC	2024	2017
Burnley	2024	1999
Sunderland	2017	2022
WBA	2021	1993
Blackburn Rovers	2012	2018
Coventry City	2001	2020
Bristol City	N/A	2015
Norwich City	2022	N/A
Millwall	N/A	2017
Watford	2022	1998
Pigs	2000	2023
Middlesborough	2017	N/A
QPR	2015	2004
Preston North End	N/A	2015
Swansea City	2018	2001
Portsmouth	2010	2024
Oxford United	N/A	2024
Stoke City	2018	2002
Hull City	2017	2021
Cardiff City	2019	2003
Plymouth Argyle	N/A	2023
Derby County	2008	2024
Luton Town	2024	2019

From my quick check:
12 sides have been in the Premier League most recently than League one
12 sides have been in League one most recently than the Premier League

7 sides have been in the Premier league in the last 5 years
8 sides have been in League one in the last 5 years

5 sides haven't been in the Premier League
3 sides haven't been down to League one.

It doesn't really say a lot, but i was interested to see how the championship was made up and it certainly seems that there is a fair bit of movement between the leagues, which is probably healthy for the game.

What strikes me and always has with the Championship is that its so competitive. Hull beating Sunderland and Sheff United in a few weeks, Boro dropping like a stone, QPR rising in a mirror image of Boro to be level on points

The Top 2 is a fight now between 3 sides, but for the one that drops out, they may lose in the play offs. As it stands, there's currently 17 points from Burnley in 3rd to Blackburn in 6th. However, the pigs down in 12th are just two wins, 6 points below Blackburn and they tell us that they could make the play offs, which they could indeed... for all their clean sheets Burnley, having hammered the pigs 4-0 on Friday, could miss out on promotion having conceded just 9 goals until now to a side that's conceded 54 goals. Only Plymouth in 22nd Place, Pompey in 17th and Cardiff 21st have conceded more goals than the pigs.

It all sounds a bit mental and i'm not sure the pyramid is broken at all from this snapshot.

That table definitely doesn't look right to me, Leeds N/A? They were in the third tier for three seasons, gaining promotion back to the championship in 2010.

Also Swansea were promoted from league one in 2008. Haven't checked others but these two stood out to me straight away. I feel whoever ends up in 3rd out of the current top 3 (assuming Sunderland don't go on a perfect winning run, which is unlikely) will miss out on promotion. It's probably going to be a race for autos to the wire, the team that misses out will be very deflated and it would be difficult to rally the players for the play offs. Could be wrong though but it happened with L**ds last year.

 

[Frank the tank]

Leeds could well stay up so if went up we'd to finish above two teams currently in the PL. Assuming last season's promoted go down we're looking at monumental improvement to stay up.

Leeds could also well go down in fact given there recent history it's far more likely

 

[JJBlade]

The world wide TV numbers are more then double its nearest competitor.
Also financially and numbers wise the PL is best attended league in the world with massive waiting lists of people wanting to attend PL matches,

The popularity is astounding, Man Utd have a season ticket waiting list of 35,000.
Arsenal and Newcastle have ST waiting lists of 30,000. Even Leeds have a waiting list of 22,000.

Man Utd are considering building a 90,000 capacity stadium. Newcastle are thinking of building a 80,000 capacity stadium, they’d both fill them.
This is the reason why prices have increased but amazingly as people are priced out…there’s an army of rich fans willing to take their place.

It does make you wonder where English football is heading and whether it will all end in tears with clubs going bust etc.
However I remember In 2000 loads of fans saying the PL bubble is about to burst, then they said the same in 2010.
Many have predicted doom but it’s only become bigger…bigger…richer and richer. Economically a remarkable success.

I heard a pod cast the other week talking about the current danger in the PL is ticket touting web sites.
They have bots buying up the official tickets…then they try to sell them at between £1000 and £5000 each…and guess what?
some really wealthy people (especially from overseas are willing to pay those vast sums to attend big matches like Liverpool v Man City)

Another big future problem with the PL is the age profile of fans, it’s really old.
Every match is sold out, with most being old aged season tickets holders……young new fans just can’t buy tickets because there aren’t any spare.

Almost all Premier League teams, even the smaller ones have waiting lists for season tickets
But this club decides to have a third of the stadium open for pay on the dayers who don't fucking buy them

 

[Frank the tank]

Almost all Premier League teams, even the smaller ones have waiting lists for season tickets
But this club decides to have a third of the stadium open for pay on the dayers who don't fucking buy them

Did you just make that up ?
You did didn't you.?

 

[SwissBlade]

That table definitely doesn't look right to me, Leeds N/A? They were in the third tier for three seasons, gaining promotion back to the championship in 2010.

Also Swansea were promoted from league one in 2008. Haven't checked others but these two stood out to me straight away. I feel whoever ends up in 3rd out of the current top 3 (assuming Sunderland don't go on a perfect winning run, which is unlikely) will miss out on promotion. It's probably going to be a race for autos to the wire, the team that misses out will be very deflated and it would be difficult to rally the players for the play offs. Could be wrong though but it happened with L**ds last year.

See correction below for Leeds and Norwich, as I say, did it quickly

 

[JJBlade]

Did you just make that up ?
You did didn't you.?

More season tickets would probably be sold if we made them available

I believe we have 24000 now
If you add almost 3000 to that for the away section we are up to about 27,000 tickets spoken for

This means that practically fucking zero get sold to the general sale mob

So we should put 28,000 season tickets up for grabs and include BLUT and see what happens

Leave the sections of the kop on the left hand side for any stragglers that want to pay on the day

If they don't like it they won't buy them, but they aren't buying them anyway

The way to build a fanbase is to make it easy for those that don't come, not make it difficult for them

Why would anyone that doesn't come to the games feel the need to jump through hoops, and then only be able to buy one ticket

It's stupid, a lot of regular fans would not bother if they couldn't sit with their family or friends

So why would someone with no history of going to the games buy one ticket and sit on their own ?

 

[Frank the tank]

More season tickets would probably be sold if we made them available

I believe we have 24000 now
If you add almost 3000 to that for the away section we are up to about 27,000 tickets spoken for

This means that practically fucking zero get sold to the general sale mob

So we should put 28,000 season tickets up for grabs and include BLUT and see what happens

Leave the sections of the kop on the left hand side for any stragglers that want to pay on the day

If they don't like it they won't buy them, but they aren't buying them anyway

The way to build a fanbase is to make it easy for those that don't come, not make it difficult for them

Why would anyone that doesn't come to the games feel the need to jump through hoops, and then only be able to buy one ticket

It's stupid, a lot of regular fans would not bother if they couldn't sit with their family or friends

So why would someone with no history of going to the games buy one ticket and sit on their own ?

The bit about everyone else having waiting lists
I'm pretty sure thats not true

 

[JJBlade]

The bit about everyone else having waiting lists
I'm pretty sure thats not true

It is true
Go and research it

 

[loyalblade95]

The bit about everyone else having waiting lists
I'm pretty sure thats not true

They do, I've seen some Liverpool fans complaining that they've been on season ticket waiting lists for 10-20 years, because the club won't increase the max number of available season tickets.

There's a Liverpool fan who goes on Sky and talksport (Gareth, I can't remember his surname) who is one of the people organising the protests about ticket prices in the premier league, says he can't get his son a season ticket to sit with him because of the long waiting list.

 

[Frank the tank]

They do, I've seen some Liverpool fans complaining that they've been on season ticket waiting lists for 10-20 years, because the club won't increase the max number of available season tickets.

There's a Liverpool fan who goes on Sky and talksport (Gareth, I can't remember his surname) who is one of the people organising the protests about ticket prices in the premier league, says he can't get his son a season ticket to sit with him because of the long waiting list.

That's not everyone though is it?

 

[Frank the tank]

It is true
Go and research it

Fuck that

 

[loyalblade95]

That's not everyone though is it?

True, but Liverpool's season ticket issues are quite well known, not sure if other big 6 clubs have similar issues in regards to season tickets though.

 

[Frank the tank]

True, but Liverpool's season ticket issues are quite well known, not sure if other big 6 clubs have similar issues in regards to season tickets though.

I'm. Sure all the big clubs do but clubs our size won't have I wouldn't have thought

 

[JJBlade]

I'm. Sure all the big clubs do but clubs our size won't have I wouldn't have thought

A few outside of the big six that have produced information
Wolves 8,500
Forest 12,000
West Ham 10,000
Ipswich 1,000
Southampton 1,000
Fulham 1,000
Palace 3,000
Leicester, Brentford, Brighton have waiting lists but haven't produced information on how many

 

[Selly]

True, but Liverpool's season ticket issues are quite well known, not sure if other big 6 clubs have similar issues in regards to season tickets though.

From here: https://ticket-compare.com/premier-league-season-ticket-waiting-lists-2024-25/

 

[Edgar Allan Poo]

View attachment 204990

From here: https://ticket-compare.com/premier-league-season-ticket-waiting-lists-2024-25/

Woah - some of these teams need some seriously bigger grounds!

I imagine you have to wait centuries for a season ticket in S6 though.

 

[Selly]

Woah - some of these teams need some seriously bigger grounds!

I imagine you have to wait centuries for a season ticket in S6 though.

Frankly when you see the length of some of those waiting lists you start to understand (albeit with condemnation) why the clubs think they can get away with charging £66 with no concessions.

If you have 100k+ people on a waiting list you probably can afford to jack up the price a bit - and then the clubs who don`t end up even further behind in revenue.

Honestly - if we want to see the gap closed at all between the PL and the EFL - they should be implementing a price cap on tickets for home and away fans. How is any newly promoted club (in a 30k stadium) supposed to compete with clubs charging £66 a ticket in a 70k stadium - and that's before any champions league cash.

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

Frankly when you see the length of some of those waiting lists you start to understand (albeit with condemnation) why the clubs think they can get away with charging £66 with no concessions.

If you have 100k+ people on a waiting list you probably can afford to jack up the price a bit - and then the clubs who don`t end up even further behind in revenue.

Honestly - if we want to see the gap closed at all between the PL and the EFL - they should be implementing a price cap on tickets for home and away fans. How is any newly promoted club (in a 30k stadium) supposed to compete with clubs charging £66 a ticket in a 70k stadium - and that's before any champions league cash.

I'm a firm believer that if there are enough mugs willing to pay £66 per match then let them.

In terms of helping newly promoted teams compete.. my solution would be an end to the 25% of tv money that's given out as merit payments depending where you finish in the league. The well performing teams already benefit financially by being televised more often plus european football tv income, and in most cases do very well from merchandise sales on a global level. Shovelling them even more money for a high placed finish does nothing to help the gulf between the best and worst Prem teams , it just makes the problem worse.

Instead that 25% should be shared equally by TWENTY THREE teams. The 20 that just finished the season, and the 3 that just got promoted. That should come out as around £29 million per team. Less going to the top teams , more going to the relegated teams and newly promoted teams. Sure the big 6 might not like it, but if the other 14 teams fancy it then it could happen right?

 

[Balham]

View attachment 204990

From here: https://ticket-compare.com/premier-league-season-ticket-waiting-lists-2024-25/

I've added a bit of colour. If I recall correctly we have a maximum of 24,000 season tickets. Only three teams sell a higher proportion of their available home capacity as season tickets.



Obviously if that 24k figure for us is wrong I can amend it

 

[Sheffsteel]

A few outside of the big six that have produced information
Wolves 8,500
Forest 12,000
West Ham 10,000
Ipswich 1,000
Southampton 1,000
Fulham 1,000
Palace 3,000
Leicester, Brentford, Brighton have waiting lists but haven't produced information on how many

Leicester had a waiting list of 10,000 and were hoping to extend their stadium to 40K.

However their owners have seen the demand and decided to push up prices really high this season.
The match day adult prices this season range from £45 to £70. Their fans were in uproar at the beginning of the season.

They are now thinking the club must have decided NOT to expand….so they are deliberately trying to price out fans. So only the richest 30K can attend matches.

 

[KeyffSmyff]

Going back to the OP. Yes we may get more money this time if we go up. But Leeds also have the redbull money and infrastructure. We would likely need to be better than 2 'established teams'.

 

[Selly]

I'm a firm believer that if there are enough mugs willing to pay £66 per match then let them.

In terms of helping newly promoted teams compete.. my solution would be an end to the 25% of tv money that's given out as merit payments depending where you finish in the league. The well performing teams already benefit financially by being televised more often plus european football tv income, and in most cases do very well from merchandise sales on a global level. Shovelling them even more money for a high placed finish does nothing to help the gulf between the best and worst Prem teams , it just makes the problem worse.

Instead that 25% should be shared equally by TWENTY THREE teams. The 20 that just finished the season, and the 3 that just got promoted. That should come out as around £29 million per team. Less going to the top teams , more going to the relegated teams and newly promoted teams. Sure the big 6 might not like it, but if the other 14 teams fancy it then it could happen right?

Perhaps split ticket revenue 50/50 as it used to be as well...

 

[100% part time blade]

Some comments on here make comparisons to 5 or 10 years ago. My concern is with changes in the last three years continuing forwards, which I think could be extremely significant.
If 17 clubs will be starting, at least, their 4th consecutive Premier League season in September (most of them FAR longer), and the 3 promoted sides will be starting fresh, there’s nobody left encountering that ‘tricky second survival season’ or ‘still building the squad’ etc. Three promoted sides going down again would seem like a good bet, and then the other 17 are on season 5 (at least) facing 3 fresh faces from the championship again …