Hammond.....again

[Sirius]

I think he plays a very big part in the effectiveness of the current system. That said, he has some very clear limitations around speed and agility. I don't mind us signing him if the wages are reasonable and fitting of an ageing league 1 midfield destroyer as opposed to "Premier League player".

Adkins is going to need a dressing room that is behind him and responds to his methods. Having one player who backs him so strongly (along with Sharp and others) will help to harbour that environment.

Question is. How many clubs will come in for Hammond? Let alone match any offer we may make. So far as pay is concerned, surely Hammond's high roller days are long gone. his wage demands should be seen in that light.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

If we want a midfield that barely creates or scores goals then Coutts Hammond and Flynn are the answer

 

[Darthblade]

Surely to have 'unsung heroes', you have to have 'sung heroes'?

Surely to have 'heroes' full stop, you have to actually achieve something?

To have "heroes", you have to have players worthy of the tag.

Other than Sharp; when was the last time one of our players had a song sung about them with gusto ?!

UTB & FTP

 

[Darthblade]

Yes.

I'm scratching my head at Hammond's contribution but I respect Adkins' judgement and a couple of times we have strung together a sequence of clean sheets with Hammond in there.

If we do sign "Nigel Adkins' man//He's better than Zidane" the big issue will be who plays alongside him, because it's likely to be a 4-4-2, isn't it?

I genuinely don't believe that Hammond could play in a 4-4-2 any more ....... he hasn't the legs for it regardless of the pros and cons of signing him.

UTB & FTP

 

[Darthblade]

In response to
I'm also assuming the club have learnt a lesson with Clough and put a pay structure in place (I know, I know

That's the irony.

Many fans accuse us of lacking ambition but paying out BIG salaries, having a massive squad and paying over 1 million for a right back is showing ambition.

If we want to get out this division then we need to be flexible regards pay structures to bring in the best available

Regrettably ..... its usually panic measures, taken too late to be effective, due to our "ambitious" Board trying to do the job with what we've got when that clearly doesn't work .......

UTB & FTP

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Question is. How many clubs will come in for Hammond? Let alone match any offer we may make. So far as pay is concerned, surely Hammond's high roller days are long gone. his wage demands should be seen in that light.

Absolutely agree. Worth having on sensible league 1 terms as a destroyer if his 'unseen work' is all Adkins says it is which I believe him that it is. We're probably stuck with Coutts for another year so we just need to get him as fit as possible and try to get as much out of him as possible. I don't particularly dislike Flynn but as others have said, we need one midfielder who is a real threat. Maybe someone like George Moncur, Jermaine Anderson, Romaine Sawyers etc. I personally would release Flynn as we have Reed and Whiteman as back ups but I can see him staying to cover a few positions.

 

[him behind you]

If we want a midfield that barely creates or scores goals then Coutts Hammond and Flynn are the answer

Spot on LS26. I really hope to see none of them here next year but if I had to prioritise the order in which I'd most like them gone it would be exactly how you've written them. Hammond tries but his legs are gone, Flynn tries but is weak and has no bottle, Coutts doesn't even try most of the time and even when he does he's slower than a sloth in quicksand.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Worth having on sensible league 1 terms as a destroyer if his 'unseen work' is all Adkins says it is which I believe him that it is

Perhaps to reflect his unseen work we can offer him a deal to pay him an unseen wage?

 

[Treeton Blade]

To have "heroes", you have to have players worthy of the tag.

Other than Sharp; when was the last time one of our players had a song sung about them with gusto ?!

UTB & FTP

It was Saturday, Sammon scores we`re on the pitch..etc

 

[Dec]

To have "heroes", you have to have players worthy of the tag.

Other than Sharp; when was the last time one of our players had a song sung about them with gusto ?!

UTB & FTP

Jamie Murphy away at Notts County comes to mind. Him and Bobby Harris were outstanding up the left side that evening.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

He might stay at the Foxes,i heard that the Champions League has swung it.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

He is otherwise he wouldn't keep forcing him into our faces. He should know by now that fans are tired of hearing the cheerleading for this player who, it is quite clear to see, don't want him to be signed.

He's not being forced into our faces. He might be being forced into your face. And I can see how that would be uncomfortable.

Me? I'm interested to see how he works out. Anyway the original point, lost somewhere was (I think) about Adkins not knowing the strength of feeling against Hammond in some quarters.

He clearly does know it which is why he talks about it - and has done for a while.

If you're going to maintain that Adkins is deaf to the fans as well as blind to Hammond's failings then there's not much point pursuing this any further.

I trust Adkins judgement on this. I may be proved wrong. We'll see.

These fans (sorry.....'fans') see what goes on where it matters quite a lot - on the pitch.

Question remains: Is there anything that happens on the pitch and off it that escapes the notice of "the fans"? Or do "the fans" see and know everything?

For me Coutts , Flynn and Hammond in midfield and four clean sheets in five is some evidence that Hammond might be contributing defensively at least.

The key point is, you clearly have the opinion Hammond is a Demi-God

Altogether now
He's Nigel Adkins' man
He's better than Zidane

 

[Finnieston]

I'm glad Adkins is doing exactly what he thinks is right to get us promoted whether we like it or not. That's the sort of single minded approach I'd expect from someone who is confident in his abilities.

If fans forums ran teams we would be in no mans land..
No pressure you see. No comeback at all . Just slag people off with abandon.
Social media has a lot to answer for. Let the professionals do their job.
You may not like it but we would not be able to do it and yet we tell proffesionals how to do it, With some authority i must say.
If you dont like it dont go its easy. We are a big club. Never won bugger all. But a big club. Sell all our best players and dont buy replacements. Thats what big clubs always do. . Is it no coincidence that Mcabe has been doing this for years.
But i forgot he,s a blade isnt he........Lets get ready to rumble but in a constructive way.,

 

[blade67]

It seems that despite fans making themselves clear about this guy, the fact he is everything opposite to what we need in the middle of the park, his woeful performances since signing etc etc........

His best mate is bigging him up once again and clearly preparing us as we aim to make him our marque signing this summer:

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/foot...nager-makes-unsung-heroes-admission-1-7876572

Will we ever learn?
I can understand it if he plays a bit part on the pitch (as in just a tiny handful of first round cup games), reduces his wages to fit in with the other mediocres we will end up keeping/offering new contracts to and becomes a coach.
I mean if all his stuff is behind the scenes, then keep him there as a coach of Adkins is so determined to give his (clearly) mate a final payday.

On the bright side we haven't gone for Forte yet, who is another Adkins favourite.

A number of comments on this.

1 If managers picked teams based on fans opinions, I'd want them sacking straight away.
2 Hammond (and Doyle before him) will never be fans favourites, although Doyle actually became more popular as he got worse (legs went) due to two reasons. Clough gave him an easier role in the side, especially in season 1 and he cried after the Charlton game/took this piss out of west ham.
3 Hammond clearly gets through tonnes of work on the pitch as well as off it and I'm sure Adkins has stats to prove distance etc to back up his views.

Unfortunately, as others have stated, his 12/13 yellow cards in 25/26 games also tells it's own story. Nearly all of these have been given for late challenges or pull backs when some average league 1 journeyman has skipped past him. Football is an explosive game and Hammond looks like a marathon runner trying to keep up with a bunch of 400 metre runners. I personally wouldn't sign him but if Adkins is going to, he's got to find a gazelle to play alongside him.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I personally wouldn't sign him (Hammond) but if Adkins is going to, he's got to find a gazelle to play alongside him.

I'd rather he got a big dirty centre back because 1 we need one and 2 he can crock Hammond in training.

 

[Champagneblade]

I don't think it's right at this level to be making signings where we need to adopt a specific system to support them or where we need to sign other players to make up for their deficiencies.

Any player in the squad need to be available for 40+ games and be able to play all the systems the manager wishes to deploy without requiring others to be picked to accommodate.

A defensive midfielder certainly doesn't bring enough to the table to merit such considerations.

 

[Clarkey87]

1 If managers picked teams based on fans opinions, I'd want them sacking straight away.

My point is that it has and does happen. Time and again throughout football, you will find examples of where fans have influences team selections through pressure.
I agree, the managers should be stronger in these situations but they're human at the end of the day and the pressure put on them in addition for the desire to be liked leads to this happening.
Thankfully it doesn't happen frequently but it does happen. (Including at Bramall Lane a few years back when there were chants of "SUB" or where fans chant a particular subs name to get the manager to get him on the pitch.

2 Hammond (and Doyle before him) will never be fans favourites, although Doyle actually became more popular as he got worse (legs went) due to two reasons. Clough gave him an easier role in the side, especially in season 1 and he cried after the Charlton game/took this piss out of west ham.

I was never a fan of Doyle, I'm not a fan of Hammond. Both technically inept, past it players.

Unfortunately, as others have stated, his 12/13 yellow cards in 25/26 games also tells it's own story. Nearly all of these have been given for late challenges or pull backs when some average league 1 journeyman has skipped past him. Football is an explosive game and Hammond looks like a marathon runner trying to keep up with a bunch of 400 metre runners. I personally wouldn't sign him but if Adkins is going to, he's got to find a gazelle to play alongside him.

I don't mind bookings if he gets them for putting in a hard challenge or taking one for the team. I hate it when, as you highlight, he gets it because he just can't hack the pace of the game anymore and it skips past him.

The summer will tell us the intended make up of the midfield for next season. Hopefully it will be an improvement on this seasons.

 

[Clarkey87]

He's not being forced into our faces.

Yes he is.

I'm interested to see how he works out.

How is that going so far since he signed? Nothing offered has so for indicates he is an ideal player for taking us forward.

I may be proved wrong. We'll see.

One of us will be. For the sake of this club I hope it works out. We can't keep making the same mistakes we have done over the past seasons.

Question remains: Is there anything that happens on the pitch and off it that escapes the notice of "the fans"? Or do "the fans" see and know everything?

We fans notice what goes on ON the pitch. Unless you're knocking about the academy midweek we will not see what happens off it. I don't deny that and I have said time and again if he is such a big influence off the pitch, give him a role in the back room to help develop those coming through and those on the pitch. Doing things he used to do to a good standard.
He is past it now that doesn't mean he can't contribute in other ways.

Coutts , Flynn and Hammond

Midfield dream team!!

four clean sheets in five is some evidence that Hammond might be contributing defensively at least.

It is evidence that something is eventually working. You say Hammond, I say Baptiste
But we need to build on it for next season.
We can't just rely on this current group, who for all intents and purposes, have failed this season.

Altogether now
He's Nigel Adkins' man
He's better than Zidane

If only!

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Adkins is not doing anything "blindly".

He's worked with Hammond for several years, and sees his overall contribution - something pretty much any fan is "blind" to.

QUOTE]




This. Hammond definitely makes us more solid. We’re a better team with him than without him. That’s not to say that there aren’t other players out there who might be better value for money to play his position. But Adkins knows the man very well and likes what he brings both on and off the pitch. Having the security of knowing a player is exactly the personality you want and is 110% behind you as a manager is worth a little extra to a manager on top of simple footballing attributes.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I hope it's not 442 as I don't think he can play in a traditional 442. He'd need a very athletic partner who can play box to box, with attacking full backs IMO but there are multiple ways you can utilise any formation these days so I'll be honest and say I haven't a clue really who Adkins will sign, how we're going to play next season and whether or not it will be successful.
My take on this season is;
Adkins came in with an idea of how he wanted to play. He then found out that the players weren't suitable, whichever combination he tried.
He then tried to find a formation that suited what we had, as it was clear we weren't bringing in many more. That took time as each time he thought he'd got it right it went wrong in the next game.
He got the board to accept that we needed to strengthen our defence however we played and managed to bring Baptiste in, who made 352 workable. It's worked. But too late.

All this against a backdrop of players who signed to play for their mate, t'other Nige, players who'd already pissed t'other Nige off and thought football was just a good way of funding a lifestyle, Baxter and Collins and yet another boardroom upheaval.

Next season he should, if properly backed, be able to set up a team to play in the way he thinks is most likely to get us up, without boring us to death with turgid football.

But we'll see. Better managers than him have failed in certain jobs and far worse have succeeded. That's football and that's why predictions can never be more than educated guesses. Even with Matthew Benham's algorithms.

The only ways I can see 442 working with Hammond in it are:


1. His partner is an exceptionally complete, athletic box to box midfielder who is also comfortable in possession.


2. His partner is fairly defensive minded and combative and energetic (like Basham). The 2 CMs are both quite deep and primarily there to stop the opposition playing. That means the play has to come almost exclusively from wide areas. It worked well at home to Fleetwood this season (Hammond’s debut) but then was abandoned. We would need a very good combination of wingers and /or attacking full backs. Coutts and Brayford could be OK down the right if they got back to their harmonious best but we’d need a new direct, pacey winger down the left to trouble defences in the way that Murphy did. Probably a new left back too unless Wallace can kick on and build on his progress earlier in the season.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

He is human, as are we, WHF. It's entirely possible that Adkins too is "blinded" by a combination of his own preconceptions (based on previous successful spells with Hammond) and an unwillingness to accept his own judgement was and continues to be wrong about his potential contribution to a game of football. Every technology-based measure available will highlight with devastating accuracy that it is negligible, so Adkins is clearly allowing his personal perspective of Hammond to rule his opinions.

I did a bit of a breakdown a couple of games prior to our latest "run" and his impact on goals conceded / points won was, statistically speaking, non-existent.

We were worse when he didn’t play (Rochdale and Burton). There was zero fight and character shown by the team in those two games. When the going got tough, they hid like children. Hammond brings fight and character to the team. On his debut, he got slated for being crap as did the team (booed off at half time whilst 1-0 up). We won the game 3-0 and Fleetwood never looked like playing through us (something teams had done far too easily before his arrival). Yes he is lacking in some areas of his game but he makes a significant contribution.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I will certainly be intrigued to discover what length of contract he might be offered and certainly how his wage demands might fit in with KM comment at the AGM of paying wage's not in line with our 3rd tier position. If it's a player/coach position how many helpers does NA need?

We’ll probably never know what wage he will be on. I imagine it will be 1 year at the upper end of our wage structure or 2 years at a slightly lower wage. I think most of us who support the decision to sign him would only do so on sensible wages. Despite not knowing what he’ll be on, I predict that a large section of this forum will lambast him for being on £8k, 10k, £12k (depends what they decide he’s on that day) whilst not contributing enough.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

.

Adkins sees it all I'm sure but he's like a husband of a wife who was so marvellous in those hey-day years and yet doesn't quite push the buttons anymore, through no fault of her own, just age and nobody can blame her for that can they? That's not to say Adkins should be married to Hammond and not turn to the footballing equivalent of a sprightly, sensual, dirty nymphomaniac about 10 years younger.

I'll give myself a 'like' for that post actually

So let me get this straight. You want him to ditch Hammond and sign Ched?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Yes he is. He is blindly oblivious to the fact the fans (majority) don't want Hammond back, or being made a conerstone to the team next season.
He seems blinded by his loyalty to who clearly appears to be a 'mate in the game'.

He's worked with Hammond over several years yes. Any fan knows a manager has his favourites that follow him to a variety of clubs. The 'old pals act' - a la Paddy Kenny/Neil Warnock.

What fans are NOT blind to is the limited contribution he, Hammond, has had on the pitch this season. You cannot come on here and defend his regularly poor performances. These coming from a player who had played, until recently, at the top levels (league) in the game.

He isn't going to get any stronger, he isn't going to get quicker, in fact he will continue to become the opposite as he ages yet another year.
Wouldn't mind if he had a range of passes in his locker, where he can just stand there and spray the ball about, but he hasn't.

In response to your last point 'Revolution' quite rightly pointed out a reason for our recent clean sheets - Baptiste
Earlier in the season - poor opposition/flukey few results it hasn't been consistent in all/majority of games he has played.

Interesting that you bring Warnock/Paddy into it. Warnock has a few players like this but Paddy is the best example because he has followed him to most clubs but there’s also people like D’Jaffo, Bullock, Short, Derry, Hill etc. that he took to more than one club. He also tried to sign Monty and Morgs’ from us. Hardly a who’s who of footballing geniuses but players who all played at the top levels and certainly levels higher than you would think their footballing ability would take them.


If you read ‘The Gaffer’ by Neil Warnock he talks at length about these players being his captains (despite not generally wearing the armband). You get a perspective of how important they were to what he was trying to achieve. These were the big influences in the dressing room who provided the environment to allow players like Taarabt to thrive (he talks at length about the amount of hand-holding Taarabt needed and that he couldn’t have harnessed his talent without the help of his ‘captains’).


Over the years, I’ve come to accept that our team will have players like this (it used to drive me mad that we paired Jags with Monty in midfield instead of Quinn or Tonge who were better footballers) in it and that there’s a lot more to managing a football team than picking your 11 most talented players and sending them to do their stuff. Robson did that and look at the result!


Personally, I (and some other fans it seems) don’t think his performances are as bad as you make out. I agree Baptiste has made a big difference to us defensively too. Not because of exceptional ability but because he is quick enough and strong enough for us to play a higher line than we did previously meaning we are a tighter unit. With the defence so deep before, there was a huge area for Hammond to try to protect between midfield and defence and as everyone points out, he’s slow. This meant his weaknesses were being highlighted. I think he’s looked infinitely better since the team has become more compact and he’s not been involved with 40 yard foot races with players 10 years younger than him and has been able to do what he is best at, winning and recycling possession (and breaking up opposition counter-attacks when there is a threat of being outnumbered).

 

[BushBlade]

The only ways I can see 442 working with Hammond in it are:


1. His partner is an exceptionally complete, athletic box to box midfielder who is also comfortable in possession.


2. His partner is fairly defensive minded and combative and energetic (like Basham). The 2 CMs are both quite deep and primarily there to stop the opposition playing. That means the play has to come almost exclusively from wide areas. It worked well at home to Fleetwood this season (Hammond’s debut) but then was abandoned. We would need a very good combination of wingers and /or attacking full backs. Coutts and Brayford could be OK down the right if they got back to their harmonious best but we’d need a new direct, pacey winger down the left to trouble defences in the way that Murphy did. Probably a new left back too unless Wallace can kick on and build on his progress earlier in the season.

Personally, I can't see us winning enough games playing option 2. It would be so easy for teams to just compact in the centre areas when they come to the Lane. Most L1 teams would be happy with a draw against us at our place.

 

[Kenilworth]

I used to get massive erections 5 years ago
some things just fade away

Is that when you ditched the Audi?

 

[Champagneblade]

I think you are being very generous there regarding 4-4-2.

In suggesting Hammond and a Basham type then considering Coutts you are already restricting the midfield to less than 5 goals.

It puts a heck of a lot of pressure on the left winger and strikers to get 50-60 goal between them.

I'd simply say Hammond hasn't got the legs for 4-4-2 and therefore I'm out. Morsy maybe, but that ship sailed when Adkins continued and still continues to fawn over Hammond.

Losing out on Morsy is another Kevin Davies moment. Right on our doorstep yet we did naff all.

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

Adkins goes into Southampton five years ago, & finds Hammond the "model pro" there, the player that all others look up to, whose attitude, approach & application are spot on.

Fast forward five years. No surprise at all that Adkins doesn't find that sort of character in the SUFC changing room. No surprise that he's desperate to have that sort of exemplary leadership brought into the club, in trying to put right the mental weakness & the shoddiness that prevails.

But should it be Hammond, five years older & wearier, as the man to fill that role? Or should a younger, more effective version be scouted & recruited?

I suppose it's the quick fix vs. the longer term dilemma. Do we have an exemplary professional, whose attitude is important as his waning performance, brought in, knowing he'll have an instant impact on the dressing room? Or do we recruit someone to "grow into" that "They Shall Not Pass" defensive role, with leadership qualities respected by his peers? (All this assumes, in defeatist fashion, that the money's just not there to buy a Sam Morsy.)

In all honesty: who knows?

We certainly need the right characters in there, including shining lights like Hammond is meant to be.

Longwindedly, I'm saying I can see the logic of Hammond being here, however frustrated I am at him because of his old-man limitations.

 

[blade too long]

Is that when you ditched the Audi?

well , she distracted me

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Personally, I can't see us winning enough games playing option 2. It would be so easy for teams to just compact in the centre areas when they come to the Lane. Most L1 teams would be happy with a draw against us at our place.

You might well be right. I think we'd certainly need a good big man option from the bench or even starting games with so much of our play going down the flanks. On the plus side, Coutts drifts in a lot and links with Billy and Brayford overlaps so that would vary the play somewhat compared to a direct dribbler on the left.